Never saw this coming!

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Thank goodness there is a place like this forum where we can share things, we are totally to embarressed to share with any one else!! !

My son was in a bad mood since I went to pick him up from school! Their school closed for the holidays today...turns out he was very upset because his teacher gave him plenty of literacy revision to do during the holiday!! !! She said, even though he did good, she wants him to stay in practice, because she saw with my son that when he had a long holiday, he struggles to remember all the info....Dont really know whats up with this because he got 84% for his literacy!

Anyway, so he was irritable, rude, "don't care" attitude the whole afternoon....One of the kids living close by, came knocking and asked to play...I sms his mom and she says its fine if he play at our house...But my so was struggling to get along with this child the whole afternoon....this boy is younger than my son....I personaly dont like this child because he has an arogant attitude!

Anyway...so my son wants to force this child to watch his movie, my son doesnt want this child to choose the game he wants to play...my son was just being rude and bossy.....

Then I heard things were getting heated...I went downstairs and found my son talking very softly and in a threatening voice to this boy....telling him to look him in the eye......This poor boy were sitting there in fear with his woody pulled over his face and tears in his eyes....My son told him that if he doesnt answer him or take the cape of his head he will hurt him badly! My son was going towards this poor child and when he wanted to pull the cape of his face I went in and pulled my son backwards, took the boys hand and told him to rather go home! I felt so embarresed, ashamed and said to this child that I am sorry for my sons behaviour and think it will be best if he dont come and play again!

What followed wasnt a pleasant sight....We went through a temper tantrum that lasted for more than 2 hours because I deleted all his games with any sign of violence or aggression in it....and all the TV's are blocked with only FAMILY channels to watch now!

I had it! Inever thought my son can or will behave like this! I am searching through my brain what the h*ll happened here! My son says he didnt think the child was afraid!! !! That he wanted him to look him in the eyes, because its disrespectfull not to!! !! OMW!! !!????
I askedhim why he thinks the child covered his head....he says: because he can!! !!????? I asked him if he didnt see the child is afraid....no!

Obviously the whole, "I want to kill myself....I am useless.....I am going to hell......" All that followed, accomponied with sobbing and sadness.....

Ok....ASD....Bipolar....or what!! !!???? Personality!?
I feel very tired, worried, ashamed and confused!

How old is your son and how old was the other boy?

If your son has ASD, he would definitely have trouble understanding the cues someone gives if they are afraid, it's part of the diagnosis. Kids are told all the time to look people in the eye, especially kids on the spectrum who tend to prefer not to, so he might well have decided that rule applies to everyone all the time.

He also may not understand the difference between a younger child and a child his age - knowing your audience is a common pragmatic speech deficit (many kids on the spectrum have poor pragmatics.) A peer might have treated him this way, and he thought it was an appropriate way to handle annoyance without realizing you don't treat a younger kid the same way you'd treat a peer.

Obviously, I can't say for sure - but my own son seems to have this tendency and it falls under AS.

That being said, you're right - this was not OK. I'd wait until everyone is calm, and then create and go over a set of rules on how to appropriately handle conflict, discuss how little kids are different and need to be treated differently, and what he should do next time. Since my son has trouble managing violent behavior and violent language, we've set up the video games and TV as something he has to earn by showing appropriate behavior (right now it's 1 hour of time if he can manage to keep from using violent or disrespecful language for a week.)

We wrote up a contract with specific things he should not say and specific things he could say or do instead, along with the arrangement to earn time, and had him sign it.

Good luck! This stuff can be really scary when it happens, especially when other kids are involved.

I know I push this book a lot, but I found it gave me a language and an approach on how to help my son with his aggressive behaviors. He had some really bad aggression as a side effect of his medication in which he threatened a neighborhood kid with a pocket knife and verbally threatened to kill the mother of a neighborhood kid because she made her son come in for dinner. We got the dosage adjusted right, so that's no longer an issue, but it was a very scary side of my son that I hope I never have to see again. Additionally, he has some mild aggressiveness in that he hits when he is not happy and feels that people aren't listening or he believes they are insulting him and he can't think of a response. Anyway, the book is A 5 is Against the Law.

As a consequence to the violent behavior with the neighborhood kids and to help him understand that it medication making you feel that way does not make it okay, we also removed all his violent toys/games, and made it a rule for almost six months that he had to play with other children only with mom, dad or another approved adult present to supervise directly (not in another room, not working on a car etc.) When he earned our trust back, (and we got the meds under control) he got some toys/games back and was able to play with neighborhood kids without direct supervision (i.e. in the front/back yard, in his room).

I would definitely not let your kid have access to violent games any more and would definitely supervise and limit TV watching to keep his watching of violent shows to a minimum. There are nice shows and games out there, included some video/computer games that involve building things, or running farms, cities, etc. There are even online Lego games, just go to Lego's online site. They have a number of games kids can play right online, or you can just build stuff online there. You can even design special Lego pieces there, too, and either use them just online, or Lego will make them for you and you can buy a set and have them send them to you. Some of the other construction games may have online sites with games, too. Look into Erector sets, and Lincoln Logs sites. And how about the companies that sell train sets. They may have online games at their sites, too. And don't forget educational games. Also, don't just let the kid play video/computer games. Get him building type toys, so he can build stuff with his own hands, and look into other hobbies for him as well.

There are plenty of non violent game options out there.

I agree that there's lots of nonviolent options out there.

The problem is that you wind up in a Catch-22: tween and teen boys' socialize using violent media, especially the boys who don't play sports (if your son is a sports buff, that's the direction to go with media) but the flip side, at least with my son, is that he scripts and copies behaviors off violent media that direct him towards very, very poor social choices.

Getting rid of all the violent media is easy: I don't really want it anyway. Finding a way to overcome the resultant social handicap...not so easy. We're rationing it, using it as a token for good behavior, and finding media that tangentially is violent (all those shows about gun mechanics, etc.) for rewards, but it's not a perfect system.

If anybody comes up with a better way, I'm all ears...

Thanx for your support and ideas!

I looked at a You Tube interview last night with Dr Tony Attwood, where he talks about rage attacks in ASD....It made me realize that we need to have an "emergency" plan in place when my son feels a rage attack coming.....He says its almost like "being there" for some one with an epileptic attack!

My son is turning 9 this month and this boy is 1 yr younger than him......
My son has a friend, believe it or not, actually his best friend, that bullies him emotionally and sometimes physickly....I got the feeling my son acted out some of this friends behaviour ass well! Yes, his behaviour looked exactly like the caracter in assassins creet....I deleted that game!! !!,

My son doesnt like sport that much.....he wants to try judo, maybe I must look into it?
He loves building things, lego in real life and on the computer! He also likes mind puzzles...Thanx, I will try all your ideas!

He also love animals! We were planning horseriding lessons for next year!

If he was imitating a game, that makes a lot of sense. It is like the kids who practice professional wresting moves and such, I think. They do not necessarily understand why it is not Ok, and maybe he assumed the other kid was in on the role play?

I don't know if it will work, but maybe explain to him that his friend is younger and he needs to be extra careful.

Hi I am Jojo's mom,
Wow I am so sorry. First does your son see a therapist or something? I do not want to alarm you but until he has some work with a therapist on consequential thinking and four step problem solving process, he should not be allowed to play with any children including his sibling alone. I think this calls for a neuropsych.
This goes as you know beyond bullying. The question that needs to be answered is this a one alarm fire or a five. Never take a suicide threat lightly from a child with poor impulse control. This could be an asprin or academy award moment.If he does not understand repercussions of his actions, you have a real problem. Has he threatened suicide before? Do you all usually get into two hour melt downs? I have a lot of questions like is he being bullied at school. He seems to honestly in distress.
I would first work to get him seen by a professional, but I would cut down household noise TV, phone, video games. I would take him on long walks. I institute a 30 minute cool down for transition from school. I would encourage him to paint or draw. I would get an emotioncon sheets so he could give names to his feelings. 5th grade is tough ,they are doing rapid higher level learning.
He could be stressed socially even though he can do the academics. Or he may be struggling more than you are aware. I am afraid your little guy is in urgent need of evaluation and good detective work to get to the bottom of what is going on, because he sounds like a hurting child and a hurting child hurts others.

My daughter had issues where she injured her much younger siblings when she was about that age,and it turned out to be an abomination of sibling rivalry and sensory meltdown because they would crawl all over her. She is 35, there were no books, or parent training. I did so many things wrong.
But from feedback from her as an adult, I try very hard to avoid yelling emotional scenes. I know I would yell because the things she did would frighten me for her so much. We had her evaluated in 4th grade and found she was actually mutiple handicaps and severely so with a lot of sensory problems. I want Jojo to comment on this also maybe she could give you kid thinking input.

Jojo here,

I agree with mom that his play needs to be supervised. I think you should cut him off from his friend that bullies him and try to set him up on supervised playdates with kids that would be a good influence on him. It seems like he imitating some behavior he has seen before...you mentioned that he seems to be mimicing a video game he plays.
I think my mother's concern is 1) his suicide threat, 2) impulse control problem combined with possible problems in consequencal thinking which is not easy to untangle and is why she is stressing for testing and seeing a professional 3) he did not seem to read the other child's signals that he was afraid.

Does he normally have trouble reading other kids strong emotions?

on meltdowns, dont interact with him during the meltdown...allow him to go to a quiet place to release and then unwind. Trying to stop it is futile and further escalates the situation

Jojo and mom

One of the subtypes of AS is the total control person. It kind of sounds like your son had at least a bout of that.

Ok...thanx....
Jojo and mom....he was assessed by pdoc last year, who thinks he has PDD NOS, anxiety and some OCD.....He was assessed bu ST and OT....who diagnosed SID and APD.....Put all this together and you sit with a highly intelligent little boy, with poor impulse control regarding his emotions...He isnt the aDHD non impulse control type of kid at all...nothing of such. He is the more quiet....serious....intence, sensitive child....seems like a troubled soul.....
He went to neurologistwho detected abnormal EEG, normal local MRI....but disregarded all diagnosis....Said my son is highly intelligent and terribly manipulative! That didnt helpus much.....
Yes, he threatens with suicide quite often....He always wants to hurt himself after meltdowns....I went to seea child clinical psychologist and she is going to see him next week....I want her to help him with this impulse control and stuff....But it seems she is going to start with playtherapy and wants him to lead the way...? Thinks she wants to try and " get into his head" first....? I got the impression after our first interview that she strongly suspect bipolar disorder!! !!
He is also sceduled to see a new neurologist early in Sept.
Hopefully all this will give us more answers....
It wouldnt help for me to try and get him to go for a walk....he will refuse....He also dont want to go somewhere quiet to calm down.....His anxiety level is to high at that stage....and I dont want him to be alone regarding the selfharm....
What makes everything worse is his little brother of 4 yr old that is sensory seeking and has his own problems with very poor impulse control and bad language problems...he annoys my son and pushes him far over his sensory limmits....I have tried so many things, but I cant get the little one to stop making a noise or to not touch his brother!

Jojo's mom....thanx for your honesty....Unfortunatly we dont have any of the services you mentioned in your post here in South Africa!
We dont even have ANY special ed programs in any of our schools! No free services or support!
How it works: your child shows behaviour problems....then you gues where and to witch professional you will take him....Pay all the bills out of your pocket....When a lable is slapped around his neck....buy , buy...see you whenever you have problems again....You fight all on your own....Our medical aids dont even accept autism as a chronic disease!! !! Not even depression....only schizophrenia! Need I say more!?

I think JoJo's Mum was very over the top about this and very negative and extreme. Punishing suicidal thoughts with imprisonment with the crisis team?! That's not supportive or the point of the crisis team. And to say that an Autistic child is using anger and self harm threats against you is actually funny, I just dont see how that is possible let alone probable, it just doesnt fit this sort of mind as a child with Autism, and it isnt all about the parent all the time, he has anger rages and self harms because he is dealing with intense psychological pain and that lovely thing called sensory overload.

So your son had an anger rage, he probably had a long day with multiple sensory overloads, probably all out of routine and tired and maybe even throw diet in there too at some point he's probably had sugar etc more things to rev him up. It's an absolutely impossible feeling and makes you want to just explode, I cannot tell you how uncomfortable it is and when people get in the way and make it worse, well you just explode, it's like physical pain, if someone gets in your way and makes it worse you explode to get the pain to stop, he waasnt exploding as a way to stop the child, he was exploding because he couldnt cope with the pressure he felt in his head.

Sure his behaviour was unacceptable, but to tell his friend to never come back is not fair and will cause problems as that child has one view of your son and it wont ever change if they cant see each other again, just like an adult relationship you dont just abandon the relationship if something goes wrong, it will just make your son feel more and more weird and a recluse if every friend is banished because he made a mistake, he's still growing up and living with Autism is a horrible thing, no one gets it even the people that are trained to work with you.

He needs to feel he is being heard and supported by you, he wont understand at all why he cant see that child again but at other times he is meant to talk out problems and apologise etc, how can he learn to deal with things in better ways if the person he needs to understand is just removed from the equation.

Bipolar is not the cause for sudden mood swings, Bipolar happens over periods of days, weeks, months and years, not minutes or seconds, anger rages and sensory overload are more to blame and possibly emotional instability which is where the mood reacts suddenly to emotions in a more severe way than would be 'typical'.
Don't let people throw drugs at him that may not be needed, doctors don't always know best, have a good think before they start labelling and throwing medications at someone who probably already has a sensitive system and gut. Consider his diet, consider his surroundings, is he taking on too much, is something bothering him that he can't explain,simple things like chemicals in wash products or harsh chemicals put round the bath for example can cause mayhem for people who are sensitive you often can't see if they've been washed off and then he probably goes and sits in the bath, there could be other things causing these outbursts.

Also I wonder if someone has said something along the lines of "look at me when i talk to you", some NT's can be really funny about us not making eye contact, like it's a personal insult to them, even when they know someone has Autism, he could be reacting and imitating someone who has been like this with him, it's likely to bother him for weeks and weeks after too because he'll be confused and fight with himself, blame himself and wonder why he can't make eye contact and why people do it in the first place.

I wouldnt go straight to blaming the games, problem is you have to be careful because if it isnt the games he is not going to be able to understand why you have stopped him playing them or watching certain things on TV.

He does need to understand that you cant do that to people though, you need to make sure he understands the emotions that boy would have felt, and I'm sure you have worked on this already but I think going round to the boys house with your son and talking to them both and asking the boy to tell your son how he felt could help, then you can discuss it after because he wont remember the boys emotions when he was having the rage, he needs to hear them himself from the boy when he's calmed down and then you can talk about it.

It's overwhelming when doctors are all talking about you and he probably hears you talking about it too, he will feel a wide range of emotions due to this just as an NT child would feel emotions if doctors were saying all sorts of things about them and saying theyve got this wrong and that wrong, except your son wont know how to deal with those emotions or what they even mean, some calm time talking about his strengths and good points really could help him to feel better and deal with being diagnosed with all sorts of 'problems' and let him know that you dont dislike him or anything but you just want to help and that he is still a good kid. They pick up on things, whether they are 2 years and NT or 10 years and Aspie etc, he'll have feelings about a range of things that you may not even know he had feelings about.

Good luck x

reading through your post again id say your answer is right there at the top, he got something unexpected at school, his routine is changing now horribly, he probably feels he has failed at something he thought he was good at and the last day was probably horribly hectic. If there has to be a label then it's emotions. Pure and simple. And if you really want to push on the label of what happened that day then ASD is the other part, he just needs to chill out and get used to the big change in routine and slow down, what with doctors and school and at the same time as all this there is also the added struggle of being Autistic. It's hard.
What you've written isn't enough to point towards severe mental illness that will involve doctors prescribing large doses of some of the strongest drugs in the world.

Thanx Brainfizz for this insightfull reply!
Regarding the relationship with this boy.....Personally I dont want my boy to play with this child! Sorry to say but I think this attitude of mine might have contributed to the explotion my son had with this boy!
This child's farther once said something rude towards me and Idont like his or his sons attitude! My son has confronted this child about this...had all the facts scrambled up and also handled the situation totally wrong...We did talk about this, maybe i will talk to my son again.
The thing is this: I have noticed that some kids, and unfortunatly 2 of them, including this boy, lives down our street, has the tendency to push my son over the edge....This specific boy is very annoying...he has a high pitch voice and will repeat something all the time....He just irritates my son....And I have spoken to my son and we both actually agreed that this child doesnt do him good or vice versa.....This is the reason I thought to stop the contact....If it was a close friend or an important relationship, I would try and help him fix it.
In the meantime my son told me the reason he got so upset with this boy is because this child threw my tennis bat on the floor with no reason....and my son knows how I feel about not looking after your stuff. Also hesaid this child teased him and said he must try and get him.....I realized more and more that their was plenty of stuff my son could have read wrong in the situation....and yes, he was socially and sensory overloaded!

I haven't gotten through all the posts in detail, but I doubt the video games are the core of the problem. What happens with Aspies at your son's age is that they are desperately trying to connect all the bits and pieces of how people interact from everything they've seen around them and they simply do it horribly horribly wrong. When you have a situation like the one you saw I strongly recommend going backwards through a very slow and careful situation autopsy so that you can really understand what he was thinking and how he got to that thinking in the first place. It needs to be a very calm process; you want to really get into his head. He'll behave appropriately when he really understands what that means; right now he does not.

I have seen my son do many, many things that I strongly disliked or even feared. But he has learned. It is just that he needs to understand so many more whys and wherefores than most of us even think about, he needs to make so many more connections, and that is a long and slow process. You've got to give them time and instruction.