The "why" to our math problem

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So, I got my daughter's report card yesterday. They are on a 1-4 rating scale where 1 is below grade level, 2 is approaching grade level, 3 is at grade level and 4 is above grade level. First category is Reading. Has all 4's. Then sprinkled over the rest of the first page are 2+'s and 3's. I feel so excited because in 2nd grade, my son was struggling in almost everything and it is such a relief to think that she won't have to struggle. Then I get to the second page. In the subcategory of Math for addition....there it is...the "1." The concepts of Math she has a 3 in. But addition, a 1.

Also, my son is in 6th grade and having the exact same problem with multiplication. He gets the concepts of Math at a level appropriate to his grade, but he cannot multiply.

I was the same way as a kid.

Why? Why is it that 3 otherwise apparently intelligent people cannot do math that only requires simple memory skills?

My DS9 is the same in math. It is very perplexing. Math facts have always been a bit difficult, but math concepts are a piece of cake. On last year's standardized testing, he did ok at basic math, but on the advance math (they had 3 or 4 categories) he did not miss one question. I don't know why that is, but I really think it is more than math facts are boring and advance math more fun. In truth, I would rather have it this way than the other way around (i.e., can add, subtract, multiply , but can't master much more than that).

I am NT, but I don't know my left from my right without taking some extra time to think about it (it is not automatic, like say up and down), but I am a good dancer and develop and teach routines for my class. I see the whole routine in my head, so left and right is not an issue for me, and I always turn the correct way (although I am constantly telling my class to turn right, when I meant to say left ). I think something like that is going on, but obviously on a more complex basis. My son thinks in pictures (he says movies), so I think he visualizes complex math in a certain way that just doesn't work as well for answering basic math facts with numerical symbols on a piece of paper - the process is just harder for him or takes more steps (not as automatic). I really have no idea.

Our entire family, too - plus, since I had trouble as a kid, I REALLY work on those skills for DS (in my day, the lack of computation skills kept me from going into science - I went into liberal arts somewhat wistfully. I don't think they do that now.)

One thing that worked a bit - do it spatially. Do drills using randomized fill-in-the-blank tables (try not to get addition tables and multiplication tables confused. DS can't always remember what the number is, but he knows WHERE it is and can extrapolate from that.

We also watched Schoolhouse Rock every single day for the whole summer for two years straight. It didn't help us, but might work with a different kid. I also had him write out the lyrics to the math songs one summer. Again, didn't help but might with a different kid.

Another interesting quirk: DS's worst? Prime numbers. He can remember the numbers where there are patterns, but not the ones that stand alone.

We actually participated in a neurological study on discalculia and they recommended this program, unfortunately DS feels "too old" for it now; I wish we'd had it earlier. It's called Number Race and is a free software download at http://sourceforge.net/projects/numberrace/ or at http://www.unicog.org/numberrace/number_race_index.html. Took me a few tries to download it successfully as there are all kinds of language packs.

If you can find testing that shows it is due to a form of dyscalculia, you could probably get written into her IEP in later grades that she is allowed to use a table for looking up basic math facts.

I was able to download Number Race to Windows 7 on the first try, so maybe they've improved their install. The more advanced one, Number Catcher, appears to have gone to a web-based interface, nothing to download.

Last edited by zette on 08 Dec 2012, 9:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

dyscalculia?

Dyscalculia has other side effects than not being able to do certain types of math (some people with dyscalculia can be very good at geometry). Difficulties reading an ordinary clock, difficulties finding ones way, difficulties remembering numbers (phonenumbers), difficulties remembering faces, difficulties reading timetables etc.

We have similar problems. I didn't think it would be possible for my son to get math facts without adding on his fingers. We started doing reflex math online, and I am amazed that he is actually starting to get it. I can't tell you whether this will completely fix things because we have not been doing it long enough, but I can tell you that he has started recognizing the math facts that he has learned in the program in his school work without counting on his fingers. It is very sequential, and even takes into account things like typing speed, and does not progress to new math facts until the ones presented have been mastered so you cannot help with answers or let anyone else use it under their account. It is only to teach rapid recognition of math facts.

I have the same problem or a similar one. In elementary school I was strugling in math and learning my time table was really painful. But in middle and high school, as caculators were allowed, I was really good to the point of sometimes get perfect scores!

Thanks for mentioning these games. I'm on the lookout for math facts games for my DS -- hoping to find a better way for him to learn them than flashcards...

Thanks, everyone for your input. I will look into the online resources. Right now I am having them both do timed drills every night (addition for her, multiplication for him), it often ends up with one or both in tears. So far the only way I can get them to do it willingly is if I pay them a penny for every one they finish correctly. There has to be a better way than that.

I still count on my fingers.

And do not know my left from my right. When I used to play rugby, I had to put tape on my right wrist or else I invariably went the wrong way.

I am fortunate in that I don't have any trouble distinguishing the letter "L" and thus learned my left hand from my right...in my fourties. When you hold both hands in front of you with the forefinger and thumb at a right angle, the left hand makes an "L."

This work-around may not be useful to dyslexics (meaning, if your brain reverses that particular letter, it won't work for you.)

For DS, we'd do drills and drills and drills in multiple ways and he'd start to get it...and immediately regress to where he was when we started the next day. We are just barely seeing forward motion in learning math facts and have been plugging at this one since 2nd grade (he's now in 6th.)

I've tried workarounds for myself that go something like this: 8 * 7 is kind of like 7 * 10 - 7 * 2. (which equals 70 - 10 - 4) Believe it or not, this is easier and faster for me, even in my head, than just answering the first question. I used to think this was because I was stupid, but if you think about it, laborious as it is, it does demonstrate a number sense most people lack - and I realize that my son has this, too.

My own parents also tried everything, they even broke down and bought me an electronic device with a math game on it. Regular drills with flash cards. All they got for their trouble was meltdowns; I just plain require a calculator or lots of extra time to do simple math.

That's what I do in real life. But in rugby, I required something a little quicker! LOL!

Both of my hands seem like my right hand to me.

We experience the same thing as your son. If there is any lapse in the drilling, the knowledge just disappears. By the end of 5th grade, my son knew his multiplication table, but we stopped drilling over the summer and when he started 6th grade it was as if he never knew it.

I am certain that a number of 6th graders would do the timed test better than I do, even today. I know I seriously perplexed my high school math teacher. He would give me logic puzzles that I could solve with ease. Then when he put multiplication or division problems in front of me, it seemed like my IQ dropped about 30 points. He told me I must be trying to fool him because the part of my brain that did the logic puzzle was the same part that does math facts. All he did was make me feel stupid.

Yup, that's been exactly our experience, too. I did find that the fill-in-random-blanks times tables seemed to stick longer, and he seems to be doing better...but we are by no means over the hump. DS is also in 6th.

What's weird is that the kid has a good memory. If he could remember his times tables 1/10th as well as he remembers everything about Pokemon, we'd be in business! LOL!

I believe I may be able to provide some help. By doing that, I have to define what multiplication is. Multiplication is a form of addition called repetitive addition. Repetitive addition is taking a number n and adding this number by itself a certain amount of times x. For example let's say we have the number 2 and we want to add it to itself 4 times.

We have 2+2+2+2. This equals 8. This is the same as 2 X 4. The number on the left side which I will call operand 1 is the number we wanted repeated and the number on the right side is the amount of times we want to add by itself. In this case it is 4. It's why we say 2 times 4.

Let's say n is the number of times we want to add a number to itself and a is that number

Multipication is repetitive addition which is (a+a+a..n). This may help your son and you to understand multipication a bit better momsparky.

I wish the problem were as simple as understanding! He knows what it means (and he's not really that much better at addition, he counts on his fingers) but he can't remember it - nor can I - no matter what we do. Rationally, we know how to do it, but it's as though there is a loose wire in the computation circuit in our brains. For me, each number in the multiplication tables start out with the multiple of one, two, and then it's a blur until 5, and then until 10...

You are right, InThisTogether, it is definitely not a memory problem! DS has that, too - he can remember clearly people and places he met and saw when he was 3 years old.

The frustrating thing is that we're on the cusp of having a strategy for it, just as we were for dyslexia when I was a kid, but likely by the time they've cracked it our kids will be in college.

I count on my fingers still. How does one not do that? I'm sorry:(

1,2,5,10 Hmmm interesting. There is a logical pattern. From 1 to 2 the increase is 1. From 2 to 5 the increase is 3. From 5 to 10 the increase is 5. The next pattern of increase should be 7. What happens if you try the 17's? It's a food for thought. If we can crack an underlying pattern then maybe we can derive a solution.









Try to look for a pattern to your thinking and your sons as well.