A couple more questions about my son's behavior

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Some more things my kid does that drive me crazy:

1. He is almost completely unable to follow directions. It seems like no matter what I ask him to do, he does it wrong. FOR example, if I tell him "Take this laundry basket up to the bedroom," he will take it down to the laundry room. When I ask him why he took it there, either he heard what I told him but he doesn't know why he did it that way, or else he will just say "I thought that is what you wanted."

2. He doesn't do stuff we have been telling him to do all his life. For example, put his dirty clothes in the laundry. He will leave them all over the place, even next to the laundry basket. Just not where they belong.

3. He does not feed his animals, which he claims to love so much. The chickens were supposed to be his, but now they are mine, because I am the one who has to feed them all the time.

His fascination with trains (since he could talk--one of his first words was "CHOO!") seems to block out every thing else in his life. I remember being nearly as obsessed with horses at that age, but I still did my school work, perused multiple interests in 4-H and Girl Scouts, and took care of my dog.

Does anyone else experience this? If so, do you have ways of dealing with it?

1) Seems for me like a multitasking failure. If I am already at something else, be it mentally or physically, I would have to give up the thing I am doing complete, and only when I am emty again I can fully concentrate on a new thing. Sounds easy but as example, when your son comes home, he will already have a plan including doing his homework, going on the toilette... Everything that is disturbing this plan is a disturbance I cannot give full attention, unless I completely give up the old plan. Which would mean, I have to do a new plan, when I am done with the "disturbance task". Solution for me: In my routine plan, I also include a time for "special things". So as example, when I come home from work, I do my normal stuff, housework and so on, and when I am done with it I ask my partner for additional stuff. So both sides are happy: I dont get disturbed and my partner is given time to "interrupt" me with unplanned things.

Another solution that works for me, if I am told that something needs to be done and how long it will take. So I can finish my actual routine until a point, I can fit the new task in. So as example you say, that you would need then minutes of my time, I finish what I am actually doing without stress, and when I am ready I come to you and ask you, what the task is about. So I can give you my full attention.

2) Is there a certain place for this in his daily routine, that is also respected from everyone? Things I am supposed to do "when there is time for then" end for me in chaos. I am unable to coordinaze such tasks. My dirty cloth time is in the morning, after i have brushed myself, and put new cloths on. After I am done and know what cloth I will carry today, I also know which I wont need anymore and can put these into the basket.

3) The same. Cat feeding is right after the cloth things, because then I leave bath, and without clothes it would be cold outside the bathroom. This is followed by putting the dishes into the dishwasher, changing the water for the cat and cleaning the cat toilette. I really love my cats, but I still need my routines or I would forget about it. So the food part is not that bad, if I forget they tell me. But forgetting the toilette part ends with the cat doing her toilette thing outside the toilette... -.- Cat is important, so cat gets part of routine. It may sound weird, but the older cats loves the routine himself and demands them on its own. "He, Feedslave! Its 23:00! Its before sleeping, bathroom hugtime! Andale, Andale!"

This may sound cruel, but I put my son's trains on "vacation" for a while. I also explained to him I wanted him to recognize all the other good things around him. It was actually amazing that when the trains were gone he did wind up "growing" into other interests. He would constantly ask when he could have them back and I would tell him "When I see your behavior improve." Or, "They are sleeping now, they need a rest. They will come out on the weekend." He would tantrum and have meltdowns, but he was doing that anyway, with or without the trains. I also kept asking him, "What is more important? Trains--or people? Trains--or Mommy and Daddy?" He knew the answer and it would make him think. It was like taking drugs away from a junkie, but it was really worth it. Now he can actually play with his trains AND play with other toys. It took him a long time to get there though.

As to chores, if he doesn't do them, I remind him and say, "Let's go do this together." If he takes any initiative I make a big stink about it, praising him with hugs and kisses and gushing What a BIG boy he is! Telling his father later what he did All By Himself, to make him feel proud and want to do it again. He LOVES feeling like a big boy.

I totally get the need to come here and vent, this is a good place to do it because other people who are Aspie or have Aspies in their lives are among the only folks who get it. That being said, I wanted to tell you that if your son and husband are both Aspies, you need to consider changing your expectations of them or you are going to go mad. Your husband, if he really wants to, could possibly take some steps to moderate some of the things he does that bug you but your son is going to need a lot of support before he is going to be able to live up to your expectations. I too get a little frustrated when I have to repeat instructions for DS for an activity that we do EVERY DAY, like getting dressed, brushing teeth, putting on his coat, getting his backpack, ... However, I have let go of the expectation that "at his age" he should be able to do these things on his own. Fact is he's not there yet. I remind myself of that and I repeat the instruction for the 1000th time because, me expressing my frustration with him is not going to help him learn to eventually do these things independently. I believe he will someday but until then, I know I need to support him.

This is all totally normal, par for the course, Aspie behavior. BTW, there are also excellent books lined at the top - I highly recommend Tony Atwood's Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome - it was a very helpful place to start for us.

Sounds like the first thing you are dealing with is a sequencing problem: he gets stuck on the first step. With my son, I've found that visual cues like a bulleted list are important - or I need to give him only one step at a time. Text messaging can be a way to offer a bulleted list that doesn't seem so onerous.

A visual or written schedule of the day, with the sequencing broken down on the things he struggles with, is helpful as well. Here are some examples: http://pinterest.com/pin/102668066475834026/ (look at the teen ones, some of these are for very young or more impaired kids.) Include things like feeding animals. Every time he misses something, bring him to the schedule and point to the thing he missed. You may also want to have a master list somewhere, and each task broken down on a small sign where the task actually takes place. DS got used to this and now no longer needs the signs, but it took him significantly longer to learn and remember the steps to a task than other kids might.

We also write out all our expectations as a "family contract" so that DS understands what our expectations are and we can refer to the contract if there is ever a question.

A side benefit of having written rules, expectations and routines may be a reduction in meltdowns. Imagine it like this - what if you were deaf, and only could lip-read. Somebody gives you an instruction, and you go do it to the best of your ability. You return, expecting everyone to be happy, but everyone is yelling at you and you can't figure out why. They then tell you for or five other steps that you missed because you weren't able to lip-read while you were completing the task. Sound frustrating? It's not too far off your son's experience.

As for the trains thing, that is also totally normal for an Aspie - it is called a "special interest." We use DS's special interest like currency in many ways - first of all, he "earns" time (his interest is video games and guns) towards games by completing his tasks for the day - when he is DONE with homework and chores, he gets a set amount of game time. Second, we use it as a jumping-off place: his interest in guns was somewhat disturbing, but we have directed it to non-disturbing things like science, mechanical engineering and physics of guns - all of which are available with a quick google.

Good luck!

"Hey, Feedslave!" Ha ha, that is funny! My cats are exactly the same way. Apparently we only exist to serve them

What is it about the guns? My son likes them, too. Anything mechanical, really. We have been subverting it into study of military history and the American west.

As for having written rules and routines, we have that. It's following them that is the problem.

I think part of our problem is that the lists are on the computer, and also that they are not specific enough. For example, one item on the list is, "feed pets." Well, we have a lot of pets. It should say, "Feed Cats and Fill water. Give guinea Pigs food, hay, and carrots. Check water. " Am I on the right track with this?

I think there may be an auditory processing issue, too. Both with him and his father, there is no guarantee that what I say will actually be what they hear. IF they remember what I tell them at all, it can get pretty garbled. I feel like I am in that Far Side cartoon about what dogs hear. http://farm1.staticflickr.com/47/153603 ... ad0588.jpg Does anyone else have this problem?

Yes, although you may find you need to tweak the list - so, start with that, and every time he messes up, figure out the step that went wrong and change the list. Then print it out, cut it into parts, and stick it on the wall near where it needs to go. Make sure if the lists are in different places, the last part of the list says something like "move on to Guinea Pig list." I've found the best way is to start with waaay more support than you probably think you need and slowly scale back. (Sometimes DS will get annoyed and give me "I'm not a baby!" and I can then have a conversation about what he actually thinks will work; once you are working as a team it is much easier.)



Totally! I'm on the other end as well, so it winds up that there is more yelling in our household - by every member - than any of us really want. Not the best way to deal with it (we are all learning to say something and wait 30 or so seconds for the processing to catch up, but old habits die hard) but at least we are all starting to understand each other better.

Yes, I experience this! I "help" in order to get things done & that works. The best tactic has been taking away things my DD likes. She loves her 3dsi & her ipad, time with her cousin, Grammy & being able to pick toys on ebay. If she back talks, complains, or starts noncompliance behaviors, I tell her that's 1 & if she gets to 3 she loses something. She either never gets to 3, or we have a system setup where she can "earn" her points back. She is the most strong-willed, smart person I've ever met, and she's 9! So every day is hard. every little thing seems hard. It's something only ASD parents can understand. Try taking away trains - I bet the threat alone will start a change! Feel free to PM me:). We have tried everything and this was the only thing that worked.

A lot of folks here have found that this kind of heavy handed treatment back fires more often than it helps. When I stopped taking DS's favorite things away from him and started really working with him on whatever was causing the non-compliance or other issues then we started to make progress. Instigating meltdowns on a daily basis is no way to live in my book.

It seems to me that there are 2 levels of naughtiness. There are the small stuff, like leaving his clothes all over the place and dawdling over the math. Not model behavior, but not exactly horrible either. Then there are the big unacceptable stuff--howling when his father is trying to sleep, breaking stuff, hurting animals. I'm OK with trying to reshape behavior in the first instance, but the second category is serious and I think really requires some important consequences.

I cannot possibly punish him every time he leaves his clothes all over the floor, forgets to do something, pokes through his school work, leaves a mess in the kitchen, and the bathroom, and the living room . . . . I tried it for about a week. I was exhausted and he was a nervous wreck.

Taking things away doesn't seem to phase him. He just finds other stuff to do. The only thing that worked was taking away ALL his free time and giving him extra chores, but then it started the stress-and-meltdown cycle. Also, I work second shift and Dad does not enforce when I am not home (he "forgets)

But lets start with something simple: what strategies would you suggest for the clothes he leaves everywhere? Right now, if I look, I will find clothes in the bathroom, in front of his dresser, in front of his bed, and in the living room.

First of all I would say, pick your battles. One of the best pieces of advice I've heard is to focus on one behavior at a time. So with that in mind, is picking up clothes the most important thing you want to tackle? If it is, that's fine. Its a good place to start. Momsparky posted good ideas for giving instructions and how to provide the kind of repetition and visual support many kids need. In addition I would recommended some method of positive reinforcement. Some use sticker charts with younger kids or marbles in a jar for a little older kids
So many marbles results in a special treat. The time frame for earning the treat needs to be kept short enough that your kiddo will appreciate the reward and not feel like the goal is unattainable. Lots of positive reinforcement for evem small attempts to do the task especially at first. You can gradually raise the bar for how complete the task must be to earn a reward. Small steps.

Keep in mind - again, these things are probably not "naughtiness" but a genuine part of the disability (an inability to keep up on small tasks is part of executive function) Frankly, I gave up on the clothes on the floor and just have DS clean his room once a week instead. We labeled all the bins in his room and put chalkboard paint on the fronts of his dresser drawers (provides some flexibility in the label) so he knew where to put things away. We went over a couple different ways to clean: I like to start in one corner, clean everything there, and move slowly around the room, but we found that DS likes to clean up all of one category of things (e.g. all the paper, all the dirty laundry) at a time.

For dawdling, we give DS regular drawing breaks (part of his IEP in school) and a separate sheet of paper to dawdle on as needed. It is some kind of sensory break for him.

For the serious meltdowns, I strongly suggest you go over the threads on violence and meltdowns in the Parenting Index; there are lots of strategies there and I'd be condensing them if I posted here. IMO, this is a much more serious issue.

Also, remember to think of your child as being at least 1/3 less than his chronological age (after a while of seeing things through this frame, you will be able to tweak this more to your child's individual delay) Before you work on a behavior, ask yourself if you would have this expectation of a child of that age - you have to start where he is and work your way up, not the other way around.

I want to emphasize that most of the behaviors in this thread are NOT a child trying to be naughty; they are things that are honestly much more difficult for people with ASD. To us, it doesn't make sense that it should be so hard, but for them, it really is that hard. Of course we still want our kids to learn the skills, but you have to be patient, or the efforts will backfire. Pretty much everyone on this board has been there with something backfiring and having to be jarred into the reality of, "oh, that is really hard for him!"

The important items, violence and destruction, usually carry direct connections to levels of stress, ie get worse the more stress the child is feeling. Expecting children to do things beyond their developmental capabilities will stress them, so that sort of pressure is best left until after they have learned to manage their moods, in my opinion. Allowing them time with their special interests will calm them, which is an important part of learning to manage their moods. So, you have to be careful when you try to use standard parenting techniques like the withdrawal of privileges, because you might be taking away the only thing that is helping your child hold it together. Hence, the possibility of a backfire.

I pretty much gave up on all the little household stuff when my son was in elementary and middle school, and put all my energies into the meltdowns and destruction. You've got a limited window before the child gets too big to be physically restrained, and within that window is when you want the child to learn to recognize his own stress build up and develop effective techniques for mitigating it. That is a huge skill and the best way to make clear how important it is is to clear away all the other nag items. We spent YEARS working with our son on it, and also involved him in an anger management group for kids that wasn't exactly on point, but he actually liked going to. Once we got past that and knew he could gauge and manage his own levels of stress, we went back to the concept of chores, putting things away, hygiene, etc.

Our kids are managing a whole host of stressful skills that we can barely imagine. They experience everything so differently than we do. One adult member of this site described going out into the world of people as the equivalent of having to sit all day with someone running their fingernails up and down a chalkboard; someone with AS can be that hypersensitive and stressed. All the time. Can you imagine remembering to put your clothes in the right place if you were freaked out by nails on a chalkboard? Even little things become a lot to take on. Pick your battles, prioritize, and spend time really trying to figure out what makes your child tick on each item, so you know how to best help him with each.

It was a real game changer when I decided to just let go, and let my son "be" with all that stuff which was driving me nuts. I took a chance, decided to experiment, and it worked. Almost instantly the meltdowns and scary behaviors reduced dramatically. And that gave us space to figure out what the triggers were, what the warning signs of stress escalation were, etc.

My son may still not do as many chores, or be as neat and organized, etc as most other kids his age, but he is very responsible and just a super great kid; I feel so confident that the road we took with him was the right one. Haven't had a meltdown or any type of destructive behavior in years. People are really amazed by my son, and we're really proud of him. He's doing great. There were years I wasn't sure we'd ever get here, but we have. Just take it one. step. at. a. time.

Thanks everybody!

This is going to be hard.I am going to have a VERY hard time letting go of some of these expectations, like the one about picking up his stuff and cleaning up after himself. The house is always messy and if I don't force him to do it, I will have to do it all myself. Remember, his father is JUST AS BAD, but he is at work all day so I also have to clean up all the messes he leaves for me, else live with the mess all day.

I feel super-stressed myself. I am going back to school in a couple weeks and I have been trying to get other things out of the way. I also work part-time and have my son's homeschool to worry about.

I have not seen any of my friends in months. I have not been to the gym in weeks. I am exhausted all the time.

I confess I am having my own issue here, and it is hard to cope with. I worked as a dancer all the time my son was young. I dropped out of pre-med when I found out I was pregnant. I went back to dancing because the schedule is flexible and it used to pay a lot for not many hours of work. Well, the economy has changed and I'm getting older, so dancing deosn't pay what it should any more. I quit and took a job as a carriage driver, which pays squat but at least I get to work with horses and again, the hours are flexible.

I have a dream for retirement. It involves homesteading on my land and operating a fitness club for older adults. I have already started working on it by becoming a Master Gardener and by taking the seminar that will prepare me for a personal trainer certification. I already dont have time to study for that; I don't know when I will be able to sit for the exam. This next class I have to take is the EMT class, so I can earn a living and put money aside for my dreams. I should add that I am 44 now, so I don't have forever to make this happen.

This is a long explanation, but it helps explain why I feel like my husband and son are thwarting my dreams. How am I going to study when my entire day is spent (as it is now) attempting to negotiate messes that are left for me by others? I cannot afford to wait another year to start this class--financially, we are barely holding on now. We need two incomes.

I have my own set of issues, and I cannot cope with the clutter in this house. It drives me crazy. It is the most stress-inducing thing in my life, next to the meltdowns. It doesn't matter how much I try to organize, the just come right behind me and tear everything up.

And now it seems that they are unable to contribute to this house, and if I want anything done I must do it myself.

I dont think I can do this.


ETA: My son is going to be 12 years old next month. So even if I estimate his functional age at 8, then YES, i would expect an 8-year-old to pick up after himself and not junk up the main part of the house. I was NEVER allowed to mess up my mother's house. My stuff stayed in my room and that was that. I was always taught to clean up behind myself. This house is becoming unlivable for me. I would go home to mother until they start cleaning up after themselves, but I'm afraid the animals would all starve.

I'll start with this: SURE you would. However, with an eight-year-old, you'd expect to have to stand over them and point stuff out, right? You would expect to have to remind them more than once. You might have to go back several times to make sure it is done. Here's some general guidelines for NT kids: http://thehappyhousewife.com/home-manag ... kids-1.pdf This is all assuming that your child functions at an 8-year-old level in this area, which varies from kid to kid. Changing your expectation doesn't necessarily mean giving up on stuff (unless you don't feel like it is worth it at the moment) it means you vary the level of support you are offering.

Now, this part:
You have a disabled child. That is a full-time job and then some all by itself. Household management is yet another full-time and then some job. You are also working.

You deserve support.

History indicates that at least in the short term, you can't expect your son and husband to keep on top of these chores (although I do think a conversation with your husband about how much stress this is causing you, and how he plans to help reduce the stress in your life is in order - he may well not even be aware.) The quickest fix is to hire someone else to do it. You may even qualify for respite care and home support: check with your local autism society. It doesn't have to be a professional housecleaning service: hire a local teenager to come in and help out. It may be worth giving up the gym membership for some other less expensive exercise option so you can afford support at home and be able to leave once in a while to socialize.

All of us are incredibly stressed out and have our own needs - and some of those are because we, too, are somewhere on the autism spectrum and have needs that match our kids'. It is REALLY REALLY HARD being the parent of a special needs kid, especially when the world is telling you (and you keep telling yourself) that "he isn't so bad" or "he's really capable." I know we all want to see what's best in our kids and look to a future where they will have overcome their challenges (and that future is certainly likely, I think) but sometimes we brush off how hard it is in the here and now and we shouldn't. Many parents, particularly of kids struggling with aggression, have symptoms of PTSD. It is not a small thing you are dealing with.

One of my friends has an AS son and an NT daughter, and she was describing the difference to me. I hadn't even realized that I did all the things she described without even thinking about it: "I didn't have to teach her to wave, she just did. I didn't have to teach her to hug her grandparents, she just did it. I didn't have to teach her to say hello, she just did it." The list went on and I suddenly realized that even before my son was diagnosed, I had TAUGHT him to do EVERY MINUTE LITTLE TINY THING having to do with socializing, organizing, some physical skills (I still remember standing under him at the slide and saying "OK, now your foot, now your hand, now your other foot and touching each one so he could get the sequence of climbing a ladder.) and life skills. Not one bit of it was automatic. I hadn't even realized this was unusual - I didn't have any comparison, I thought that was just what parenting WAS.

This is HARD. Really, REALLY hard - even when you have a kid with incredible assets. It is perfectly OK to say you need more help and you can't do it by yourself.