Taking a hard line...

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Hi all, it's been a long time...

My Aspie son was making such good progress over the past years my wife and I had relaxed some and tried to give him more freedom to not monitor so much of the time. He is 16.

He has never gotten good grades in school though the teachers say he is brilliant. We don't like that, and have tried persuading him to do and turn in homework, etc. We thought that was his biggest problem - so we felt lucky.

Well, in one week, he seemingly lost 10 years of progress. The school contacted me last Monday about him making racially insensitive remarks, sexually suggestive remarks to other students. We addressed it that night and the next morning. We said that other kids look up to him and it is shocking to them to see him take the low road.

Tuesday, he and a friend got to playing on his phone and his friend sent an extremely offensive, graphically sexual image to a number of other students (including the girls in class.). He told his friend it was ok to forward it. This isn't the first time he has forwarded inappropriate images - he has done it repeatedly and he was warned he'd lose the phone if he did it again.

Of course this gets back to the teachers and principal. The school contacts me and alludes to removing him from the school and that he might be facing criminal charges for such behavior in spite of his diagnoses. As a computer forensics guy, I know this is absolutely true. (And this isn't about the school's reaction anyway. They are right.)

When I saw the image they sent, and reportedly thought was funny, I wanted to throw up. I've seen some shocking stuff, this was in my top 10. And the fact that they sent it to girls too? I wanted to quit my job on the spot, pack up my wife and daughter and move to a small deserted island....

That night my wife and I discussed our options. This terrified us. Ultimately, I took his phone, closed his Facebook account, locked him out of our Internet connection. He will not have an iPhone/Android type phone or Facebook as long as he resides in our house. We also clearly stated that him living with us was not the only option. That we were not equipped to handle such extreme antisocial behavior. That there were group homes and other options available that we are looking into.

This was a heart ripping discussion. He cried and begged us not to throw him out. My wife, who is a sweet woman, took a harder line than me. Afterwords I felt like a complete failure as a parent. She cried herself to sleep. I sat awake half the night terrified.

I guess I am wondering if other parents have taken a hard line with their Aspergers kids in the past and how has it worked out for you? How do you deal with the guilt?

Sounds like a classmate used your son's phone to send gross stuff? He manipulated your son into doing something that he knew would get your son in trouble. That's a form of bullying behavior.
I think you were right to take away your son's phone, but I think your son is probably not the sicko here. The sicko is the NT classmate who took advantage of him.

I have ASD, and I am 19. Though it may seem acting out is an asperger's trait it is not. He is doing very indecent things, but that is because of his choices, not his aspergers. I have been delt the hard card too, due to inappropriate things, and that was during high school as well. I got through it, and I am back to my sweet ol self. If you want to know, my parents were asking the same questions. From what I know, people agreed they did the right thing. I know it may seem harsh, but if this is what you would do to an NT child as punishment, it is ok to do the same to him. He, like I, should never do those sorts of things, regardless of our ASD. You're doing it right, and make sure you follow through as well. Once he has gained your trust back, then give him his freedoms.

But kicking him out is not the way to go, I don't know if I would have ever understood my parents decision if that had happened.

I should have mentioned this is an ADHD/Asperger's school. To clarify, while the friend was the person who sent it and has his own issues, he got the picture from a facebook feed my son was subscribed to. Their motto is something like "yes we are the most racist and offensive group on Facebook."

I told my son on many occasions... If you get message containing a naked photo or bad language, delete it from your phone immediately. Never to forward that; The phone is not a toy. Turns out he apparently subscribed to that Facebook group and read their BS every day.

After a long back and forth with the school, we've both concluded that my son isn't the sicko - but since he can't seem to control how he and others use his phone, that it's far to risky for him to have it.

Yup. If it was my son, I would delete his FB account. Or if that seems too harsh, at least insist that you must always know the password and be able to monitor his activity regularly.

I don't think you should have said you might send him away, though. That was an extremely hurtful overreaction.

appletheclown, I very much appreciate your perspective. You don't know how much!

When you say he is doing very indecent things due to his choices, not Aspergers, I am not sure I understand. Can you maybe give me an example of what you mean? I ask, because at 16, I would have been completely mortified to know a girl in my class think I looked naked photos on the Internet - let alone the worst of the worst photos. He says things like "I know it was bad, it shocked me too, I told my friend not to send it to girls, just the guys. " Note: he lost Facebook privileges for an entire year for other borderline illegal activities including harassing schoolmates.

"Later, he'll say it's only the 2nd time lately my phone has been used to forward a naked picture to a girl. I won't do it again." He doesn't seem to grasp that 1 time is too many!

And for kicking him out. Yes, that one hurts me the most. I have worried non-stop that we might have done damage there. It came from a place where my wife and I want to be kind to him. It is not in either of us to watch him 24x7 or to be constantly berating him for mistakes. I guide my daughter and employees by encouraging them to be the best they can be. I am slow to criticize and very patient with imperfection. I have seen so many people thrive and succeed beyond their wildest dreams with that type of encouragement. My son, however, doesn't respond to the same methods.

During the discussion, all the information I had was "my son is a perverted sociopath who won't learn from his mistakes." Admittedly, I was in full blown panic mode. I had visions of him being carted downtown by the police and face jail time.. Maybe not because of this incident, but what if tomorrow he grabs a girl or exposes himself? My wife and I simply do not have the tools to deal with that type of behavior. Just because he says he won't do something doesn't mean he won't do it.

Later meetings with the school have changed that perspective to "My son willingly allowed a perverted sociopath to use his phone to forward inappropriate messages." Which is better in some regards and IS something we can hopefully help him correct.

Would you want your parents to clarify why we were talking about sending him to boarding school/group home originally or just let it ride? Lately, he doesn't seem to be thinking about that. He seems more focused on trying to figure out a way to get some privileges back. He hasn't quite understood the phone is gone. I turned it in yesterday for a credit on our account.

I think this is one of those situations where you have to remember that your child has the maturity level of a kid 1/3 less his age - so a 10 or 11 year old. Unfortunately, he has the hormones of a 16 year old. We had a similar situation with my 12 year old (fortunately, they hadn't figured out how to send photos, so it was words.) and we took texting privileges away, among other things. We now monitor whether or not he is deleting texts and read all his texts and emails. We do not allow him on social media (which isn't so difficult at 12, because he isn't technically old enough yet.)

My son was horrified when we explained how his text might affect the girl he sent them to; it had not occurred to him that what his friend had asked him to do might hurt someone (even though I think that was the friend's intent and he understood that - he just hadn't connected the dots.) We talk a lot about it.

I am guessing that your son - due to his AS - doesn't have a clear idea of what these images mean socially. We've all seen small children laugh at nudity - they don't get the implications. I would guess that "perverted sociopath" is probably not an accurate assessment of the situation (obviously, I don't know - I'm not there. I am only saying that there are other possible interpretations.) Imagine if you had the body of a 16 year old when you were only 10.

We purchased the book "A 5 Is Against The Law" for my son - we refer to it periodically. It offers very a very clear description of boundaries and the consequences for violating them. I'd recommend that as a first step.

I also think that kicking your son out would be the worst possible scenario for him - he doesn't have the skills to function in a SPED classroom, let alone the world. You need to find professionals who can help you with this problem (and it sounds like your school is currently overwhelmed and can't help. I'd find a specialist in autism on your own.) You need a plan of action - and I think the first thing is putting training wheels on all social media.

I also found the book A 5 is against the Law to be a good place to start.

Just from how you talk about the situation, it seems as if your expectations and beliefs about his understanding of the social situation and implications is much higher than his actions imply.

I agree that the internet/phone control is a good first step as he can get himself in a lot of trouble that he does not seem ready to handle.

This does not mean he is developing an antisocial personality disorder, it does imply severe pragmatic, interpersonal interaction deficits which may need to be addressed.

Just as our children often aren't ready for social cliques in 4th/5th grade, aren't ready for the organizational/executive functioning skills necessary to manage Jr. High, they are also not ready for the sexual innuendos, flirting, and social media encountered in high school.

I think momsparky summed up my perspective pretty well. The thing is, a hard line only works when child understands what he did wrong and simply thinks he can get away with it. Your problem is that your son probably does not really understand what he did wrong. In that situation, being too hard cannot solve anything but will contribute to his sense that you / the world are / is unfair and that he cannot win.

I am fine with taking away the access to things like the iPhone and Facebook. The explanation I would give is that to earn back these privileges, he has to show that he understands what is and is not appropriate content and action. If he cannot use them appropriately, he will not have access. The only way to restore access is to learn what is and is not appropriate.

Kicking him out of the house would be too harsh and would not solve anything. The way to back track from that is to tell him that you are wondering if he understands what he did wrong, since that threat had been made on the assumption that he knowingly did something wrong. I've backtracked like that with my son, and explained that what I need is for him to learn what the appropriate behavior is, and for both of us to have an accurate picture of what he does and does not understand as to what is expected from him. I have explained to my son that to the extent he does not understand certain concepts, his access to privileges may need to be restricted as a matter of protection. Not just protection of those around him, but also to protect him from the harsh consequences of a world that will assume he knows what he is doing. I believe that our kids need to know what real world consequences could look like and have enough fear of them to really, truly work with us on the education process. I think my son "gets" it; there was a time when he would only work to get back what he wanted, but he's come to trust that we really are looking out for him - not just punishing him - and that is a big step, because it makes him an active partner in wanting to really understand.

These are long and difficult conversations to have and, yes, sometimes you do have to issue consequences that reflect the severity of the action, even if there was not related understanding and intent, just to get through to the child how serious the issue is. When I've done that, I've tried to make it clear to my son what my thought process is, ie that he needs to understand deep down how serious the matter is, even though I realize he didn't fully understand it.

Our kids can learn. Just ... sometimes it is more difficult than we realize. We get caught off guard a lot by what our kids either do not know or really think. But that is what you have to work from, so you do it.

I feel I've been completely misunderstood.

2 Weeks prior, other parents were telling us how he is a great example he is for other Aspergers students. For 2 years we've been told he was one of the schools success stories. Etc. etc. So yes, there was a divide between my beliefs of his understanding of these social situations.

Picture the shock we felt seeing he was again involved with forwarding of offensive images, racial slurs, etc. etc. this particular photo depicted the graphic rape of young woman and sent under the context of it being funny. Is that normal Asperger behavior? In my experience it isn't. However, responses to my post seem to indicate that it is and I've over-reacted.

And finally while he used the term "kicking me out." I want to be clear, we said if he turned out to not be able to handle his sexual urges and continued to the point of criminal behavior we would have to move him to a more structured living environment with more intensive care than what his mother and I can provide. We were never just going to throw him out on the street. If that's an over-reaction, then so be it. I also have a young daughter to take care of.

But this is all probably moot. As I've stated, the discussion happened prior to us finding out the other student was the main perpetrator in this incident.

I completely understand your shock, having recently been in a very similar situation with my (admittedly much younger) son. While it wasn't a photo, the language he was directed to use was certainly aggressive and could have involved police.

What I think responders are trying to express to you is that the social norms surrounding sexuality can be difficult to understand. If you have no idea what rape is or what sex is or what the difference between the two is, you might react inappropriately to such a photo; think of school age children who discover there is a more shocking kind of humor than bathroom humor. I am guessing your son has not connected the photo to either violence or how the girl might feel, and he definitely needs your help to do so.

There are adult aspies on this forum who have been kicked out and hospitalized (I admit, I haven't read in this section about aspies who've been sent to group homes, but I am guessing you could query how that goes on the general boards.) I've not read of this going well for anyone concerned. I do not get the sense that children who take longer to mature do well in situations where their families are not available to advocate for them.

I can understand that this was scary for you, but you don't seem to see how scary this is for your son: he went from "making good progress" and "other parents telling us how he's a great example" to "extreme antisocial behavior" over a single action. Imagine how losing "10 years of progress" in a week must feel to HIM. HE'S the one who put the work in for the progress to happen!

You are this boy's advocate. Something is going on here that is causing this behavior, and it is up to you and your wife to figure out what. Reacting with horror and disgust will not solve this problem, but it might well exacerbate it.

It could be a simple misunderstanding, or maybe he's being manipulated by someone more sophisticated, or a change in routine/hormones/teachers, or he's found inappropriate material as a model, but I can't believe that a change that happens this suddenly happened all by itself.

My apologies if we misconstrued anything you said, but I still think the overall approach we discussed is valid.

Thing is, I've learned not to be surprised by my son anymore. Oh, I still feel those jolts, and then I settle into the issue because that feeling is par for the course. What he does and does not understand is just so ... random. True, I haven't come across anything like what you described, but ... life with an AS child is life with the unexpected.

I, too, have a success story, model kid, and so on. But he is not and never will be "normal," and while there are fantastic upsides to that, we can't forget that there will downsides, too. Everyone around you will try to be encouraging and positive but they don't see everything, and they are not responsible for raising and protecting your child. You are. You can't ever assume the job is done. I feel like I've seen and heard everything on these forums over the years, and one big thing that struck me long ago is the simple danger to our kids that comes from being naïve and oblivious. Your son could suffer big consequences from his gaps in knowledge and understanding, and this situation is a wake up call that many still exist.

My honest belief is that no one is in a better position to help a child through all that than his parents. No one knows our kids like we do, or loves them like we do. And they need us. My son has often said that his family is everything; no one else really understands him; I think he'd be lost without us, and sure it gets complicated with his younger sister, but it all works out. I don't let things get to me or shock me; maybe it is the little bit of ASD in me, but I can emotionally detach pretty fast and move on to the job that needs to get done, and that job is to teach and protect my children.

Your son needs to understand what happened and why everyone was upset. He needs to feel it, and truly understand it. That isn't because he was at fault or an instigator, that is because he was in the chain and he needs to know how to not be in the chain next time. I don't know if you see that or not; it isn't clear in your posts, so I'm just trying to make sure you are aware that this whole situation shows just how much your son still does not understand.

Being naïve and clueless (if that is what your son is) isn't always a bad thing. We have so many times in our family that we all burst out laughing (my son especially) when he suddenly realizes something he wasn't tuned into at all. As they say, if you don't laugh you'd cry, and it just feels better to laugh. It's the randomness of it all that strikes us. I don't know that the randomness will ever fully end with him; this is just life as we know it.

I am really sorry if I sound glib or insensitive. I just don't have any other way to approach these little shocks. I can say that having been on these boards for a very long time, I long ago built a bit of a figurative wall for my son, to help protect him from himself. He is content with that; he knows how different he is, and I guess I scared him good long ago about real life consequences for innocent (to him) mistakes. Because he has trouble with boundaries and what is and is not appropriate, he stays completely away from dating, sexual innuendo, sexual jokes, and all of it. He won't hang out with kids who are big into any of that, either; he knows it is a danger area for him. For me, knowing that he just stays out of it all is a huge relief. If your son could do something similar for a while, until he's gained more self-awareness, it would take some load off of you.

But, still, we'll never know the full extent of what our kids don't understand until it hits us in the face. And I've heard worse than your story. I am just so sorry your family is going through this; wish there was more I could say to help, but I don't think there is.

To the OP, your son did not rape or hurt anyone. He made a shockingly bad SOCIAL move by sending a digital image, which is almost the definition of AS/autism. I mean whooo I've made some real whoppers myself, even I cringe now thinking of some of them.

I have never forgiven my parents for the times they threatened to, and did put me in homes and institutions. I never understood what they hated me for, and all it did was teach me to hate them and the stinking "normal" world.

Again he sent an image, you want to throw him in the trash for that?!

I think you overreacted with the kicking him out and group home threats. Taking away his phone and online accounts was fine though.

Your son's behavior doesn't seem that different from normal 16-year-old behavior that was ill-considered like normal 16-year-olds do.

I hope you can successfully convey the importance of what's going on here; what's wrong about what he did, how severe it is, how it makes others feel, and what he needs to do to correct the situation.

Deleting his FB account will do little good - a kid with access at school or friends' devices can simply make another account and keep doing the same thing.
Taking the phone away for a while will help, especially if he can earn it back along with your trust.

Now how's he going to earn that trust? That's tough. I might suggest a living room computer with VERY restricted access - and you have full right to monitor every last keystroke he makes until you know you can trust him again. If he keeps an active FB account with you as friends AND full access to his account, he can also learn to use it appropriately.

This way, he could actively learn proper usage through your constant monitoring. Taking away his bicycle won't help him learn to ride safely... but installing a giant orange safety flag will serve as a constant, (possibly embarrassing) reminder to him and others in the know.

I also agree that if he's joking about VIOLENT RAPE/MURDER, you may need to seek the help of others who can provide him an environment safe for himself AND others. Let's just hope he had no idea what he's really "joking" about... like 8-year-olds telling "dead baby" jokes. I remember being 12 or 13 and one classmate said to a female classmate, "blablabla... or I'll RAPE you!" They laughed! When I tried the same "joke" to get the same positive response, it was a near-disaster. Big thank you to my late science teacher who firmly, yet kindly and patiently instructed me (in private) just how serious my words were. I literally had no idea and just wanted to get the same reaction the Cool Guy got!

Here's hoping he learns his lesson!

...but I'm no psychologist. Take this with a grain of salt or two.