Raised by Aspergers parent

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You talk a great deal about perfectionism and lack of support, acceptance, and approval.

I DO think you run into that a lot with ASD parents (and I am SO SORRY for what your mother did to you-- I can't even START to imagine sending my kids' letters to me back corrected, SHEESH). But I don't think it's inherent in the condition.

Saint Alan was definitely Asperger's-- no doubt about it. But he grew up with a loving, supportive, accepting family-- and he was the one who was able to teach me not to be like that. He wasn't just able to avoid raising me that way-- he was able to counteract what I'd already learned about that being the way I had to be.

I have a cousin on that side who's so Asperger's that talking to him is like approaching a wild animal-- after his marriage fell apart, his ex-wife had full custody of their daughter. He saw her for a few weeks in the summers-- and one year he found out that she was being BEATEN for being "just like her father." He and his mother did something about that-- they went to court and got the kid and set about cleaning up the mess. Today, she's a healthy, happy, functional young woman in her late 20s.

As for Saint Alan-- well, if he'd seen one of those letters, he would havd told you that all the red ink was BS, gone off on a rant about how your mother was full of s**t, put a big star on the top, and taped it up on the living room wall, where it would have stayed until the paper biodegraded. LITERALLY-- when my stepmom moved in I was 22 years old; in cleaning up the house for her to move in, I took down drawings that had been hanging on the wall since I was SIX.

Saint Alan's attempts at emotional support were sometimes unwelcome and often inept-- but the important thing is that they were ALWAYS there.

I think my maternal grandfather might have been Asperger's too-- I just spent a weekend drinking coffee and chain smoking and eating expensive chocolate and talking with my aunt on that side about how much he and Grandma (uber-NT) screwed her up. Certainly a lot of what Saint Alan spent my childhood doing was cleaning up the mess they made of me...

...and something my aunt and I agree on was that IT WASN'T JUST GRANDPA. It's wasn't even MOSTLY Grandpa. A lot of it had to do with Grandma-- her constant fussing, round-the-corner shaming, on-the-sly comments about being "just like your crazy father/grandfather." Somehow, while reading from a list of "100 Ways To Praise A Child," she still managed to make you feel that you'd be undesirable if you were imperfect. Maybe it was the "I guess you're going to end up a nothing after all, then" that greeted you if you did happen to make a mistake.**

Based on that, and years of self-study, I posit that it's not actually Asperger's that causes this kind of cold, critical, perfectionistic, unsupportive parenting. It's treating ONESELF that way in the first place. That's CORRELATED with Asperger's...

...but correlation does not imply causation. They occur together, not because one causes the other, but because undiagnosed Asperger's kids (and diagnosed ones, too, in the wrong environment) grow up with a lot of shame, criticism, and disapproval (and not a whole lot of praise and empathy and support).

This is how they learn that life is going to be. They accept it as natural and right, The Way Things Are Done. It's not the condition-- it's the experience that, all too often but not always, goes with it.

A person cannot change having Asperger's. But they CAN rise above having been taught bad lessons (even if it takes constant struggle, and a whole lot of repitions of self-affirmation (aka self-congratulation, at least when we actually do something right) and do better.

** In my grandparents' defense, I note that they were BOTH raised in abusive homes. Grandpa was the third of eight surviving children of a very poor single mother who had no one to help her-- from the age of about 7, he was expected to take on adult responsibilities successfully, and was beaten if he failed. Grandma was an unwanted stepchild-- her stepmother only married her father because she needed someone to help feed her own children after her husband died; she made no secret of the fact that the litte 8-year-old girl that was Grandma was just some worthless piece of baggage that she got stuck with.

Whatever their failings, they did at least manage to do better than their parents. They didn't beat their own daughters, or demand to be repaid for the raising (unlike Grandma's stepmom, who garnished her wages 85% while she was an adult living at home and, until the day she died, carried on about everything she was "owed" for putting up with her). They did a lot wrong, and all three of us (my mother, my aunt, and I) have paid for it-- but they did a lot right, too.

Last edited by BuyerBeware on 11 Nov 2013, 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I have to go-- I've got a kid that needs to be returned to his mother, a veteran to celebrate, and five hours of driving to do, and I have to do it all and have my kids in bed by 9. I really have to go.

Since perfectionism seems to be a lot of your problem, Jenufa, I'd like to come back later with some ideas for correcting it (even if they don't have jack to do with Asperger's, other than being things my father taught me that worked for me).

Yes, perfectionism IS what drives high-achievers (that, or they're Aspies with a fascination they have to feed).

But you can still achieve A LOT, and be happier while you are doing it, if you kick the perfectionism born of crappy self-esteem into the dust.

You are obviously a LOVELY young woman, who deserves to have all that and more, 410%.

Thank you, BuyerBeware, also for picking up with such alacrity on my comments about going back over generations. Makes me think about that Bible quote that always bothered me as a child - "And the sins of the fathers shall be visited upon their sons, even unto the third or fourth generation..." or something along those lines. As a kid I always thought that was pretty illogical and unreasonable of God. As an (agnostic) adult I think that's a fair description of how life pans out. Not at all fair, but very true.

Also for your astute comments about the link with self-esteem. Of course that is often the crux of the matter.

Just another random through to throw into this discussion. I keep reading about people raised by AS parents who ended up with an AS partner. I notice this about myself: that I can be friends with an AS person for quite a while before it dawns on me that they are in any way AS. I seem to have a kind of in-built automatic compensation mechanism, and feel intuitively comfortable navigating around someone else's social awkwardness, and might not notice for several weeks that an acquaintance has been sending and not receiving. One of my best friends is a self-proclaimed narcissist - I adore him, he's one of my "green light" people, I feel very at home with him. He's obsessive and prone to monologues, like several other friends, and it doesn't bother me at all. I enjoy people who are bright but odd. Do others of you out there notice this about yourselves?

It is paradoxical, then, perhaps, that my mother drives me up the wall within minutes... although as many people will no doubt think immediately, that is not unusual in mother-daughter relationships...

Not paradoxical at all-- the mother/child relationship is loaded with baggage that doesn't weigh nearly so heavily on all those other relationships. It's beyond moms and daughters being notorious for pushing each others' buttons-- something my kids can definitely do with me, and something I was painfully good at doing with both my natural mother and my stepmom.

The best I can describe it, is seeing the repetition of the patterns that always bugged you (too light a word) as a kid, now KNOWING BETTER, but still having the damage (and the triggering reactions) and still not being able to correct the patterns. Sort of the inverse of why I never, ever, ever wanted Saint Alan to know that he had a problem with a name.

I don't know-- I'm failing this, badly. I'm also an hour and ten minutes late with the bedtime. Ergh. I'll have to chew it over for a while, come up with a more concise response.

**hugs**

Wow. This is a bit intense.

I've read through chunks of the threads of this topic, and it does seem to go off topic, then find it's way back again!

I have to say I find this very difficult to read, but it confirms so much for me. I have always had a frustrating and confusing relationship with my parents, that left me feeling unloved and not good enough, although there was never any physical abuse, and my parents rarely yell, they could never validate my point of view, or my experiences, I was constantly being told "you're wrong" and "you don't know anything". And they weren't really interested in engaging with me unless it had something to do with them - their interest, their need, their perspective, their feelings, their reputation, their values. And the lack of physical affection was just the final layer of rejection!

It's ironic how many AS comments have said, or have a "it's not about you" attitude or tone towards NT's - as if to say "why are you taking this personally?", but the NT's are endlessly frustrated - because that is the point - it is rarely about the NT when a AS is involved. It's strange how conversations I've had all my life and never understood are now so obvious! It's a relief!! I'm not imagining it!!

I've appreciated the honesty that people have been willing to share very personal aspects of their life, and it is a very sensitive issue on both sides of the child/parent experience.

My issue is that I have only recently come to the conclusion that my Dad has Aspergers. My Mum is a rather passive person, Dad's shadow, and a bit of a doormat I think- my Mum's sister said to me a few years ago "your Mum has forgotten how to think for herself" - and I do think that is largely due to being married to someone who always thinks he is right, knows best, knows more or just stubbornly refuses to concede to anyone elses perspective- he has slowly eroded her willingness to disagree with him.

I had issues with how my parents brought me up that I had stupidly waited out, thinking that once I was an adult I would be treated with respect as an equal, and be validated as such. It never happened. And after dealing with years of anxiety and massive confusion over whether I was capable of making my own decisions I ended up with depression. There were many things that on there own might seem small, but put together pointed to "something wrong". But I didn't know how to label it or define it. I had a few people - including qualified counselors - ask me if I had been abused. I said "no", but it bothered me that it was a re-occurring question.

I eventually looked into emotional and psychological abuse and decided that it made sense. My depression was gone within months (after years of suffering), and most of the anxiety I have lived with all my life has also gone.

I realise after all the views on this post there will be those who will assume I am blaming my parents. What I do understand is that they were responsible for me, and failed to meet my needs. That is fact. Not subjective or perspective. I do believe they intended no harm, but only the best.

The only thing I can think of to compare it is food - parents if they give their children 3 regular meals a day, they will survive. But to thrive they need to have their nutritional needs meet, quality, quantity and balance. It's the same with emotional needs. And while I do see there has been so much learned about Autism/Aspergers in the last 20 years, there are still too many people (parents and children) who aren't being diagnosed and therefore aren't getting their needs met. It's very sad, but I don't think we are going to see an end to the issue of the affects of AS parenting on NT children anytime soon. The continual AS views expressed that reflect a "there are worse parents than us out there" is a pointless one. As the flip side is that there are also better. It really is at the end of the day about two things - did the parents do their best (including seeking extra help)? And did the child feel their needs were meet? Neither of those two things requires a better/worse comparison with anyone else.

I haven't spoken to them in nearly 2 years because unfortunately I made the decision to confront my parents over their parenting , and when I did they were only interested in telling me how ungrateful I was and that I was (yet again) "wrong". I cut all contact with them, but I made it clear when they were willing to take responsibility for their choices, and recognize the consequences for me then I would be willing to talk. They have been silent. I want a relationship with them, and understanding AS had put so much of their parenting and relating into a context that finally makes sense - and doesn't blame me for issues between us (which is what they have always done, only one person was ever right/wrong and I was always "wrong").

What I would like is some advice on is whether it is worth me approaching my parents with this assumption that Dad has AS? He is in his 60's, is it worth it? How do I approach this with them without backing down from my perspective? ( In their minds they are right, so they would see this as a "win" for them). I do want a relationship with them, but not at my expense.

One thing I was hoping those with AS can explain to me is this- it appears you can recognize anothers point of view, but if it is not the same as yours there is a a reluctance to validate it without then HAVING TO arguing or extensively express your opinion. So in the end (from an NT perspective) it comes across like "yeah I heard you, but this is how it really is..." Which is why it is so frustrating for NT's to communicate with AS. Is it really so hard to say "oh, ok I see your point...this (a) and (b) is why you think / feel that." (Reflective listening) And say NO MORE??? Seriously if you do that about 50% of the time in a conversation, you'll find NT's much easier to get along with! It's self-discipline to only say what you need to ...(ha! says me!)

It certainly is! I think that's a sign that it is serving an important purpose and meeting a powerful need.

That kind of sharing and honesty is one of the things that makes this such an extraordinary and wonderful place. I suppose that sensitivities around this topic are even higher than around most sensitive binary category topics (white/other, female/male, young/old, etc.) because so many of us are simultaneously on both sides.


That's wonderful! Depression is so devastating--it's really good to hear that you were able to get out from under yours.

It's interesting to me that you use the word "confront" here. I can't help but wonder what your objective was in that encounter? It sounds like you got a confrontation.


What do you want from them? Are you sure that what you are dealing with is AS and not some other disorder? Does that make any difference? You know these people so very well, you must have a pretty good idea of how they will respond to different kinds of approach. What would be the most skillful means of approaching them in order to get what you want?


"Those with AS" are an extremely heterogenous bunch. This question has a "you people" tone that rubs me the wrong way. I hate it when you people do that.

(See what I did there?)



I see your point, but this is a discussion forum, not a lecture hall or a therapist's couch.
http://www.do2learn.com/organizationtoo ... sation.pdf

If you really want to say your piece and hear NO MORE from your audience, you could set up a blogger or wordpress account.

My (probably wrong and insulting) suspicion is that you want AS people here to act as stand-ins for your parents. I don't think anyone is going to audition for that part. I hope my sharing this suspicion of mine doesn't really upset you. I just want to give you a glimpse of how things look from outside your perspective. If that role-playing isn't what you are seeking, I don't understand why else you would think it's the proper role of AS people (or anybody else) to validate your experience and shut up.

I am laughing to myself as I type this because I can imagine you reading it and thinking "there they go again! What is it with these AS people??? Well, we're all only human, in the end.

Last edited by Adamantium on 12 Nov 2013, 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

There are always better and worse parents. No matter WHO you are.

Part of a parent's job, unfortunately, is to guide their child's development-- and that does mean telling them when they're clueless, and telling them when they're wrong. With limited experience of the world, immature reasoning skills, and inherent self-centeredness (and these are typical kids we're talking about, developing right on track), that is unfortunately going to happen OFTEN. I don't know a single individual who did not, at least during late childhood and all of adolescence, think that their parents were unreasonable, unfair, uncaring, and completey utterly and totally full of crap.

Of course, you're supposed to show some basic level of sensitivity. You have to acknowledge the child's point of view (aside from the emotional need for validation, the logical fact is that they're going to be a lot more likely to listen to what you have to say if you do that). You have to praise them when they do something right (and, to be quite frank, when they merely manage to not do something wrong). You have to engage with them on their terms (yes, this means playing kid games that parents think are stupid, reading books that parents think are ridiculous, and being present and engaged in endless conversations about friends you think are bad, members of the opposite sex you think are horrid, and hobbies you find confusing, time-wasting, and/or hideously dull).

It means showing up at soccer practice (and paying attention at least two-thirds of the time) even if you barely understand the point of the game, let alone who has possession of the ball, which way it's supposed to be going, and what position your kid is playing. It means cheering for minor achievements that come late and with huge amounts of effort-- celebrating the C on the book report, not because you're thrilled about it, but because it's better than the D they got last time.

If your parents didn't do that-- THAT'S THEIR FAULT. Blaming a disease is a cop-out. They still made the choice to ignore your basic needs, made the choice not to think about when they were in your position (every parent was a child once, and ASD parents tend to have very clear, very vivid memories of that time, so it's not exactly a huge leap of Theory of Mind), and made the choice not to use their powers of reasoning (even if they're emotionally dead, they still had the power of rational thought) to work out how to do a better job and adapt what wasn't working to solve the problem.

If they didn't kiss and hug and cuddle you-- THAT'S THEIR FAULT. Blaming a disease is a cop-out. Even when I'm in full meltdown-mode, I can hold myself still long enough to give a child a hug, a peck on a cheek, a shoulder-squeeze, to ruffle their hair and say, even if sometimes half-heartedly, "I love you, twerp." There are nights when I can't make myself lay there for half an hour until they go to sleep...

...but outside of the eight months I spent medicated into borderline psychosis and mild catatonia, I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of nights in 12 years that I haven't at least managed to tuck them in, read them a bedtime story, and tell them I love them.

The ONLY things y'all's parents might have done that I can justify blaming on the condition is failing to truly understand where you were coming from (and note that I said "failing to truly understand," not "failing to make the effort to attempt to understand or behave in an accepting or understanding manner"), not being able to help you solve problems (like fitting in) that they were never able to solve for themselves, and misunderstanding communications/making themselves misunderstood (again-- stuff happens; parents who are making the effort acknowledge the misunderstanding and figure out how to set it right, no matter how many repetitions of trial-and-error it takes).

Example: An ASD mother probably isn't going to "get" why it's so important for her 14-year-old daughter to go to the dance, in the right dress, with the right hair-do, and dance with the right boy (any more than I "got" why all those girls were in the bathroom crying, when all I wanted was to get out of the stupid hot gym and sit somewhere quiet). She is going to, by default, automatically fail to "get it."

That does not in ANY way prevent him/her from taking the child shopping for said dress (assuming money to pay for it is available-- sorry, kid, but the order of priority is shelter, food, utilities, transportation, necessities like supplies and tutors and lessons and school clothing, THEN playthings like great guitars and perfect dresses), being reasonable in the selection of said garment (sorry, Mom/Dad does get some say over a child's clothing-- I've seen what happens to the kid when they're totally permissive, and my 34-year-old cousin is still LIVID over the fact that the school refused to display her senior photo due to the fact that the dress cut off about 2 inches below her labia and still living with the wounds of being labelled "slut" and "whore" by most of the student body; methinks she could have used some parental remonstration over that one), doing the kid's hair (or finding a qualified friend, relative, child's friend's parent, or stylist to do it), providing transportation to and from the event (yes, even if HBO is airing their favorite movie of all time at exactly the time the dance lets out-- sorry, Mom, but Netflix is cheap), and holding her hand and serving hot cocoa and handing her tissues while she sobs about how Mr. Dreamy danced with That Horrible Tramp during Their Song (any more than being an asexual Aspie uber-dork prevented me from handing said crying girls TP and telling them that they were smart, funny, beautiful, and Mr. Dreamy must be a Real Dick to not see that).

These things aren't inherent in the condition. I'm sure my father was bloody grateful that I hated dances, didn't care to date, didn't want to bring friends home, and preferred to spend hours on English homework, watch birds with him, and debate politics and the Bible-- but if I'd wanted to go to the dance, have gigantic parties, cut class, watch boys, and talk about nail polish, he would have bought me a dress, given me a ride, chaperoned the party, grounded me anyway, brought along a newspaper, and asked his sister to teach him about the difference between Storm Cloud Metallic and Polished Pewter (or at least directed me to her with the assurance that they were both just lovely-- this is the man who painted his kitchen canary yellow and wore rainbow suspenders, for crying out loud).

They're things that come from being too preoccupied to care (which can be alleviated, even for an Aspie parent, by ALLOWING time for self-absorbed pursuit of "hobbies" and understanding that, while that time is theirs unless there's an emergency, the rest of the day belongs to spouses and kids instead of trying and failing to make them go away-- a little thing called "setting boundaries"), too self-righteous to listen (which usually comes from being too anxious and insecure to hear, and can be combatted with reason, information, and logic-- all things we're good at), too dogmatically rigid to bend with another's situation (which is called "as*hole Syndrome"-- Don't let the phonetic similarity confuse you), or too bogged-down with the perfectionistic pressure-cooker they were living in to have any energy to spare (something I've been battling ever since reading all this literature about how Aspies must, by default, be horrible terrible awful completely unacceptable parents).

I'm really, really, really sorry your parents sucked. I would like to pour you a big cup of coffee, trot out the cookies I didn't burn, offer to let you smoke a cigarette at my dining-room table since it's cold and wet outside (or whatever it is that makes you feel special-- coffee and Marlboros are what my girlfriends and I do) and talk with you until you feel better and like yourself. If you're ever in the neighborhood of Beaver Falls, PA, look for the big ugly yellow doublewide and don't mind the mess.

Your parents blew. Somebody needs to go back in time and kick them in the ass. You're probably right to simply remove them from your lives, at least for the time being, if they're not willing or able to admit that they goofed and help straighten out the mess (because parenting doesn't end when the child grows up-- I'm 35 damn years old, and still screaming "I want my DADDY!! !" like a lost little girl) It hurts, and someone needs to acknowledge that, trot out the nice tissues, and feed you good coffee, good chocolate, good times, good praise, and good advice until you're over it.

But it's their sh***y attitudes and sh***y decisions that made them suck. They could have done better. They had the faculties if they would have displayed the introspection, critical thinking, and persistence (things I can just about guarantee you they had) to solve the problems. They were s**theads because they chose a s**thead parenting model and proceeded in applying it in a s**thead manner, then shitheadedly chose to stick with it instead of adapting what wasn't working. Assuming that they had normal intelligence (prerequisite for Asperger's) It wasn't something predetermined by their wiring that couldn't be helped without tons of medication and extensive therapy.

It was a s**thead, stupid, arrogant, choice-- sort of like when my NT husband chooses to spaz out over a couple bad grades on a couple of assignments because he's terrified our intelligent 12-year-old will decide to be a slacker like him, or when I look at my 6-year-old Aspie son deliberately annoying his sister as little brothers everywhere seem wont to do and see instead the prodromal syptoms of a Asperger violence because I'm terrified by the words of some idiot "expert" that I read in an article online.

I can choose to demand straight A's and teach her that her human worth is measured by her GPA (like Grandma taught me), or I can shove that s**t to the side and tell her that it's only a few grades, her quarter average is still good, and I'm here to help if she's struggling with a homework assignment or concept at school. I can spend the day googling "warning signs of violent Aspeger children" then go running for a script for the maximum pediatric dose of the most sedating medication I can find because, oh my God he has Aspeger's (what I've spent this morning doing, since everyone knows it's a devastating condition that precludes its sufferers from even attempting a normal life-- STUPID CHOICE, and one I'd better get over before I do ruin the child for life), or I can scold the boy for acting like a twerp, remind him of appropriate behavior, make him finish his breakfast on the other side of the table, kiss him on the head, march him to the bus stop, and get on with the day.

Last edited by BuyerBeware on 12 Nov 2013, 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

My opinions for what it is worth:

To the extent that I come to this thread, I look at my job as being that of more of a Devil's Advocate if you will. I come on here when I feel like there are misconceptions and to educate. This does not mean that this is all I do, all the time. On the contrary, I couldn't function in the real world at all if I did was this. Others who post on this thread, view themselves more like ambassadors and feel like this is a good thread to bridge the gap between the world at large and this board (and the AS community and to advocate for AS in that way.) I think this thread probably needs both roles for it to function as anything other than a sewage dump of emotion.

As for me, I express empathy, when I feel empathy, although I doubt it is expressed in the same way an NT might. (And yes, it is asking too much to expect people whose brains are wired differently to do things in thew same way you might) In my case, it tends to be on other threads b/c although I had some issues with my undiagnosed, but probably AS dad (He could be a real piece of work, sometimes) I had/have many more issues with my NT mom. So generally my posts on here reflect that.

When people come on this thread to talk about their undiagnosed AS parents, I am never sure if their parents are AS, NT or something else, especially if the poster does not seem to have a good grasp of what is and what is not a characteristic of AS. So, I tend to parse posts by stating what in there sounds to me like AS, and what to me sounds like something else (Like borderline or narcissism) or when I think something may be found in significant amounts in both AS or NT parent populations.

We help when we can, and frankly a lot of it depends on the demeanor of the poster. We are human, and generally if the person seems open to hearing our voices (and not merely an echo of their own) and don't attack us as a proxy for their parents, things can be enlightening all around. The problems on this thread generally arise when people do not appear to respect us or our space or launch the vitriol they wish they could launch at their parents. Occasionally, depending on the poster, if the poster equates anything that is bad as AS they tend to be hard to talk to. If you notice, respect tends to beget good results(although not always), just like in the real world.

Typically someone posts a problem and we attempt to offer possible solutions. Sometimes when we have no suggestions to share, or as part of a larger post we might make a blanket statement of empathy, but you won't see a huge long response that is empathy-only as often as you would on an NT board or as one would do in person.

I agree with Adamentium that it is not our job to act as therapists. Aside from practicing medicine without a license, it is inappropriate. I can understand you wanting your parents to occasionally shut up and practice active listening and just let you vent, without offering opinions, but generally that is not what we do here, unless we truly have no opinion or advice to offer. Expecting that from your parents is different of course. My mother is NT (with OCD and anxiety, though) (I warned you I was going to do this) and she has the least amount of theory of mind of anyone I have ever met and always has an opinion to chime in with. Maybe that is just what many parents do.

Are AS people, as a rule, rigid, stubborn and to the point (maybe even blunt or brusque)? Absolutely. And as anyone else seems to do, they tend to get more so with age. A 60 yr old undiagnosed person is apt to be resistant to telling him you think he has AS. I don't know how productive it would be to try, as I do not know your father. Diagnosing an adult is tricky business even for trained professionals b/c you don't have access to the childhood stages for observation. If you do plan on going this route, I recommend you do your research and make a strong case. "You are rigid and don't empathize with me." is not a strong case.

Last edited by ASDMommyASDKid on 12 Nov 2013, 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Since my 80 yr old mom has alzheimer's I've been able to have that conversation with her several times, each time the "first time" for her. I never told her that I suspected she was BAP or ASD, just told her that I had learned that I am. She asked what that meant, and when I explained and showed her some things about AS/ASD, she had the same reaction each time: "Oh! That's just like me. I must have it as well and your father might have, too."

So that's one data point.

All the conversations with my dad are imaginary, since I spread his ashes in the Atlantic long ago. Sometimes those are really good conversations, though!

Welcome, LMP! Congrats on having the courage to post your story; I hope by now you're feeling a little less beaten up than I was by this stage. Reading through the responses to your post, I was thinking, "wow, I'm actually starting to enjoy this thread!" - but then I wondered how much of that is to do with having learnt a bit, how much is to do with the often excellent quality of language usage displayed here, and how much is simply the pleasure of for a moment not being the one in the firing line.

As for your "is it worth it?" question, I am reminded of BuyerBeware's comment a few posts ago that she was immensely glad that her father never had to know there was a label and a diagnosis for who he was. I battle with the same question, and my parents are a decade older than yours - I had my big confrontation back when I was 17, and the outcome was good for me but lousy for my mother. Now, after many years of maintaining a polite distance, it is dawning on me that my parents are still my only real parents and that they're not going to be around forever. How do we seek reconciliation? I remember a friend of my mother's looking me deep in the eyes and saying, simply, "FORGIVE!! !" I have also learnt comparatively late in my adult life that saying, with sincerity, that you're sorry, even when you actually don't believe you're at fault at all - out of generosity, because it's clearly what the other person feels you should say - can bring immense rewards. "Jump over your own shadow!" a wise man once urged me. The apology brought a valuable softening from the difficult other side, and it was worth it.

You won't be able to change who your parents are and you almost definitely won't be able to persuade them to see things your way. Try to set a couple of small, realistic goals that are more about relinquishing your point of view and giving them a little of what they want. I know it's difficult - I find it IMMENSELY difficult - but it you set out to tilt at windmills, you'll reap the logical consequences.

Clearly on some level you actually do want a relationship of sorts with your parents. You need a game plan that will help you to achieve that that is more focussed on their real limits and capacities and less on your needs. You'll have to look elsewhere to get your emotional needs met. I'm not saying that these aren't incredibly important. They are. Just that you are going to need to find that love and care inside yourself, because they're not going to change now. You might, though, find a new kind of relationship with them that has some value in itself.

It's a bridge I still haven't crossed, so I'm hardly in a position to preach.

Last edited by Jenufa on 12 Nov 2013, 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Like anything else, YMMMV.

My mother is the only relative who was told about my son. I happened to mention towards the beginning of the process that I thought dad was AS, and she got very defensive, but there are complicated reasons for that b/c she has some weird ways of looking at things and thinks that b/c she married my dad that somehow means I was saying it was her "fault." I don't even talk about it as anyone's fault b/c I love my son, for one thing. She also has dementia and that seems to bring out the (NT) self-centeredness that was always there.

She occasionally would say things like she thinks maybe "everyone has autism," but it is b/c she doesn't understand it and doesn't want to be burdened with it. She comes up with other crackpot ideas, too. The only thing she is consistent with is getting annoyed if I talk about dad.

I don't talk about my son's HFA with her at all anymore.

As far as the recent poster goes, knowing the specific person is going to be a better indicator of openness than anything that we guess over the Internet.

This is really wise. It reminds me of time when I was 27 and my father had died and I saw my mother with clarity for the first time. I could not speak to her for two years. Sometimes when she spoke to me, I had to leave the building. I was so enraged that I feared I would hurt her if I had to listen to another word.

What was really good for me was mindfulness meditation. I took a class in psychology and meditation at the Open Center in Manhattan. One of the sessions was on active listening and that was incredibly useful. Another was a guided meditation on forgiving your parent. It was a transformative experience.

You have to learn to do basic centering meditaiton first, but once you know how to get to that state, you (probably best with a counselor or tape giving verbal cues) visualize a peaceful, beautiful, much beloved place (real or imaginary) and spend some time letting your imagination energize your sense of the sensory qualities of that place. When you are there and centered, you invite your parent to join you there. You recognize that your parent was a child who lived through a life of challenges and suffering just as you did. You acknowledge your parent's attempts to live as well as he or she could and you spend some time acknowledging and appreciating their whole being: good, ill, lovely, despicable, peaceful, passionate, human. You thank them for their care for you and forgive them for the injuries they did to you, forgetting nothing. You extend an equal compassion and forgiveness to yourself, to your parent and to the grandparents with whom they shared a similar drama. Then you spend some time being with them in that place in peace, before coming back from the visualization to this place.

This probably wouldn't work for everyone, but it was very, very powerful for me.


I think I have crossed that bridge, but it turns out things are pretty much the same on the other side. It's like the dishes. You did them yesterday, but here they are, all dirty again? How many times do you have to do this???

I wish you well on your way across.

I appreciate your honest and heartfelt post and will address your specific question(s) separately. But, first, I wanted to address this:

While that statement may feel pointless to you, as the NT child, it isn't pointless to this forum, where many of our ASD members wrestle with the concept of whether or not they are capable of being decent parents, and if they should have children at all even when they desperately want them. Remember that this thread is wrapped into a board with much broader purposes and, while we do try to meet the needs of the NT children finding this thread, we can't forget whose "house" we're in, and their needs. Anyway, those sentences are really for them. They need to know what the obstacles are if they are to overcome them, but I don't think it is appropriate for them to see all this as a statement that no one with ASD should ever have children.

And, well, there are the possible invisible third party readers: what opinions are they forming of the ASD community? Is some mother trying to win full custody of her child against an ASD ex going to run into court with a print out of this thread? So, the truth and the balance has to be stated, even if it is not particularly helpful to you in the moment.

Also - as someone who long ago put past hurts in the past, the overall perspective of realizing that no, other people do NOT actually have it that much better than I do / did, that everyone has their hidden crosses, has helped me become much happier with my life. I wasn't handed an extremely lousy set of cards I can never win with. I was handed a unique set of cards that took some skill to play, and there has been value in meeting that challenge. Everyone has their burdens and the way life hasn't been great. Some are easier to see than others, and some more challenging than others, but there is always "something" there. No one got to grow up with perfect parents. It really did help me to discover that. It may not today, short term, while perhaps you still have different stages of grief and resolution to go through, but it is still a concept that you'll fully integrate before your journey ends, IMHO.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 12 Nov 2013, 2:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Shoot, ladies-- I was going someplace with all of this, but I've lost it in the foolish practice of typing long posts in five-minute increments between household chores and kid activities.

I'm really sorry. This isn't a real helpful way to communicate. I should start drafting these long-winded responses in Works, then picking out the bits that are actually relevant and pasting them into a Q-reply. Seems to work for a couple of other people here.

I'll try again if I'm awake after the kids go to bed tonight. Otherwise, I have regularly scheduled completely-unadulterated-keyboard time again after bedtime tomorrow.

I want to help, even if I screw it up. I guess I see myself as owing you all something on your parents' behalf-- my tribespeople screwed it up, so it's my job to try to fix it. I tend to spend a lot of time asking friends to practice therapy without a license, so I guess I figure I've got a karmic responsibility to try to do the same when I think I might have ANY insight.

ASDMommy raises an interesting point-- maybe I should be thinking about how I've managed to adapt relationships with NT relatives, not how I got along with the relatives who shared my neurotype. It might prove more useful.

Thank you for putting up with my irritating ASD rambling. Sincerely.

I haven't read the other responses yet, but as a mother, daughter and wife of men with ASD, I'll tell you how I think you might approach it.

First, it doesn't work being confrontational, just coming out with something, when you are trying to influence someone like your father. That I know for certain. As to why that is, this is just a possible personal theory, but one of the self-defense mechanisms I believe I've seen people with ASD develop is a lot of caution in developing and expressing positions - which means, at the time they are expressed, they are thoroughly backed and up and well dug in. The opinion/position becomes very important to them, part of who they see themselves as being. In a world where one doesn't understand pretty much anyone else around them, the instinctive thing to do is put them in the wrong and yourself as the superior. You can't just break through that by stating how you see things.

People with ASD can have a lot of trouble moving from what they see, to what you see. That doesn't mean they don't want to, but unless they've actively worked at it or been taught how to, they simply have no tools for it.

I learned long ago to approach differences of opinion really gently, incrementally. I realize that what you are talking about is a lot more than a difference of opinion, but the process is the same. First you have to rebuild the trust and the bond, and then you apply the hints and see if your father will take them.

Start by making one of those classic non-apology apologies, focusing not your being wrong, but on the piece that is genuine: you are sorry they were so hurt by what you said, and you would like to see if the relationship can be repaired. Then you spend time connecting with them at their level, maybe spending time sharing a hobby or special interest, while very slowly starting to slip in some stories about friends of yours and how those friends turned out to have ASD. Or slipping in references on why some things they never saw value in were actually very important to you, because you are wired differently than they are, and you can't change your wiring. Maybe let your parents see you reading an Attwood book. Edit: after reading Jenufu's excellent post, I'll add that it shouldn't be a goal to make sure your parents make the connection, but, instead, to leave something out there in case they want to. For their benefit, in case it is helpful. Not to force the issue.

My father had a lot of pride, and never admitted he was wrong. Yet, he SHOWED that he knew he had been wrong. After years of ranting against gays, he out of the blue insisted on taking my gay cousin and his new boyfriend out sight seeing when he discovered they had a visit planned to the area. After years of saying smoking was his right, he quit supposedly in protest of some new tax, conveniently right when my son - his first grandchild - was born. And so on. He needed to be able to make the change in his own way. As long as we allowed him to do that and save his pride, he made the changes. I don't think it is a bad thing to give someone that when you realize that is what they need.

Do I think it is worth resolving these issues with your parents in some way (including doing no more than calling a truce, if that is what is to be) before they die? Yes, I do. I don't think I could have handled my father's death if I had not come to understand and respect him as he was, and if he had passed on while we were still in conflict. We have a human need to connect and to understand our pasts. And to move past the disappointment that our parents weren't capable of being everything we needed (they are like Gods to us when we are little, after all, and it makes us angry as adults to see how they failed), to loving them as the people they actually are.

I think that more often then not, the issue is how self-aware the parents are and how willing they are to go outside their comfort zone, when what they are doing is ineffective and/or not giving the child what he needs.

If you lurk on the other threads in the parent board you will see what I think is a very high amount of both qualities here. That goes for NT and AS parents alike. I do not see an AS/NT divide. We all work together to hash things out and get answers. We have more in common than we don't, as far as the central aspects of the parent board go. We all want to do what is right by our kids and we tend to have the same obstacles, whether they it is the school district or something else.

Some have AS kids, NT kids, a mix, a mix with co-morbids like ADD, OCD, anxiety or bipolar. We all have trouble with the outside world, as a general rule not getting it. We have had to try new things, often times directly counter to conventional wisdom on "proper parenting." Those who are not willing to learn new things, frankly don't stick around too long and that goes for NT parents as well as AS ones.

Some of the disconnect on this thread is about this. We see things being described as AS that we may be able to recognize in parents and grandparents just as you do, but we do not see ourselves in a lot of it. If we were that rigid, at least about parenting, we would not still be here. So, when we are addressed in the same vein as the parents being criticized we are just as likely to be confused as be offended. These things do not sound like us or AS.

That is why I think maybe AS is a red herring in the sense of being a proxy for rigidity and coldness. Yes, AS has rigidity as part of the disorder, but b/c many of us have had to fight conventional wisdom (conventional ignorance, sometimes) and conformity (the type of conformity that thrives better in NTland than our own) we have trouble identifying which aspects of rigidity align with ourselves and with AS. Coldness, I am more up in the air about, but I would concede that NTs generally emote in a way that is more readily understood by other NTs. Not everyone. I see a lot of self-described AS parents communicate emotions pretty effectively.

So, I know it sounds like a cop out, and but that is a large part of it. Even those who are AS are often a different flavor or severity than our child/ren and we have to figure out what is going on, just as an NT parent does, A child who does not communicate well, is difficult for both NTs and AS parents because we all have trouble getting into our kids' heads. None of us can read minds.

Are NT parents better parents for NT kids? I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it b/c I don't have an NT kid. In general, making some basic competency/good intention assumptions, I would guess overall this is so b/c there are fewer steps in getting to Theory of Mind and an NT parent can navigate playdates and the social scene better., I would guess. It also does not imply that any NT parent is better than any AS parent. We have AS parents on here with NT kids that manage it very well.

I think it might be about even for AS or NT parents for kids on the spectrum, assuming parents who want to learn. Some NT parents are going to be too rigid to parent an AS child and some AS parents may not have enough of the other necessary skills, either but that is a longer discussion, that doesn't really address your point, so I am putting the details of that aside.

None of any of this general information does you any good. Your questions from a pragmatic standpoint have to do with how you deal with the parents you have. The answer to that, as I have alluded to previously is that it depends. AS is a spectrum and we all have our own specific strengths and weaknesses. The best that I can say is that if they are toxic and unapproachable (AS, NT or whatever) you have to balance whether it is worth it or too painful to continue to try. I don't think that is an answer any of us have.