Raised by Aspergers parent

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Wow, so much here, so little time to respond... very quickly, off the cuff, and with apologies in advance for imperfections: BuyerBeware, you're great! PLEASE PLEASE stop beating yourself up!! Your earlier post sent me spinning back to my own high school prom. Though I was raised to despise loud music, fashion, consumerism, etc., a family friend gave my mother some apricot silk (don't forget: this WAS the 80s!), and my mother chose a pattern with me and sewed it into a beautiful dress. My sister, two years earlier, had a totally different dress, equally suited to her personality, scarlet with flounces, provocative yet modest. I even had a lovely date, a charming trombonist, who, I learned ages later, had actually rather fancied me. It never occurred to me even for a second that he might have invited me because he liked me. I was utterly, unshakably convinced that it had been an act of mercy. I couldn't have imagined that anybody on the planet might actually find me attractive.

Adamantium, your question "what do you want from them?" is a good one, one which I ask myself. And yes - I did see what you did there. Bravo. Still, I did not reach the same conclusion as you (see what I did there?) - I don't think that LMP is expecting anybody to be a surrogate parent, but is rather seeking a helpful truth, and guidance. I didn't get the impression that LMP was at all asking for missing emotional support from this forum. Not role-playing, not validating an experience. Just feedback. Imagine the moment of "oh wow - other people have had similar experiences - I thought it was only me!" - the appeal is then, "let's talk about it, let's compare notes", and not "come along and save me." At least as I read it.

BuyerBeware, I'll take you up on the big cup of coffee one of these days. I don't smoke, but I might make an exception.

ASDMommy, I think often NT posters are seen to be attacking AS forum members as proxy for their parents when nothing could, in fact, be further from the truth. I have not yet gotten to the bottom of exactly why this happens. I don't think any of us are asking you, in any way, to act as therapists, and I'm not sure why it's read as if we were.

Adamantium, I find your account of your mother's repeated comment terribly moving. And sad. The meditation you describe sounds utterly on the nail, but perhaps not so easy to achieve without the right guidance. Wow, though. And then the dishes... that cracked me up. Sigh.

DW, I see it both ways. Yeah, it's a different set of cards. I only have to think of my apricot silk Proms dress... of language usage... of music, music, music, music (thank GOD for music!)... of good literature and birds of all sorts, ants and textiles and all those other bizarre obsessions - they were all rewarding for us NT kids in a way. At the same time, it IS a revelation for us to compare notes. So many things which we always thought were just us turning up, common features, and it just keeps going - and finally, finally, a plausible explanation for a lifetime of alienation and bemusement -- give us some slack, it is healing for us to indulge in our common experiences.

DW, as to "Maybe let your parents see you reading an Attwood book," I had to laugh out loud - I wonder how many of us here have "accidentally" left an Attwood book lying around when a parent was near? Plenty, I bet... Sweet about your Dad taking the gay couple sight-seeing. I remember feeling a little anxious when I put my grandmother to stay with a very openly gay couple when she came over for our wedding. I needn't have worried. They feel madly in love with each other, and she said at the end of it, "Honestly, if I could have my time all over again, I swear I'd marry a gay man!" Disappointment... yes, that's an interesting topic. Disillusionment.

ASDMommy, you say, "If we were that rigid, at least about parenting, we would not still be here." I think that is a REALLY important point. LMP's parents and my parents are not here, and they would not still be here. I really think there's a huge difference between those AS parents who have been diagnosed and are keen to engage about it, learn, and become better parents, and those AS parents who have not been diagnosed, resist any form of help, and absolutely don't want to talk about it. Those of us who are NT and seeking solace here seem in general to be the offspring of the latter type of parent, and so it's absolutely not those of you who are still here that we are talking about. There's a really fundamental difference between all of you here and our parents, and for us, that is so obvious that it doesn't need to be stated - perhaps therein lies a problem? Perhaps we need to state it?

Oscar Wilde said that there are two kinds of people in the world: Those who divide the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't.

I never wanted to be one of the former group... but I've just done it myself!

Ah well. Nobody's perfect.

Nice post, Jenufa! I feel like you just did the daily synopsis for the thread.

I think you sort of conflated two questions in post in way that made me think I may not have expressed myself quite clearly.

The first question (one for any adult working through their issues with their parents) is: What do you want out of a meeting with them? Imagine you get to have the confrontation or reconciliation or frank exchange of views or whatever it is--what is that like?

The second question is what do you want to get here? Why do you think other people are here and, given that, how should they respond to you?

Final thought:

I don't have to imagine. Coming to the understanding that I have aspergers was an absolutely shocking experience. I really felt like Neo in the Matrix, after he wakes up in the real world.... No exaggeration. Then I found this place and realized that so many of the experiences I had always thought were uniquely mine were actually shared with many others--and they were HERE!! ! And mostly friendly!! !! !

I think a lot of us have had that experience.

Hi. OK. Wow.
Firstly thanks for all the feedback. I did ask for it

Secondly I didn't in any way mean to imply that all people with ASD are all the same, in any way shape or form. The comment about responding with "no more" was in relation to verbal social communication (it's not only something I think AS need to learn, plenty of NT's could do with saying less!) blogs, forums etc I accept is open for pretty much endless response.
I do understand it is a spectrum, and I suspect there are a lot of undiagnosed people who would never be diagnosed with AS but do have some of the significant characteristics in common, which I guess is what muddies the waters between what is a AS issue and what is a character/mental health/ some other issue. Which by the way I am very aware of. I grew up cross-culturally and some of the issues of having difficulty understanding social rules are very similar to moving between cultures. I have in the past put down some of their behaviour to living in a foreign country for 20+ years where international cultural social rules are actually a bit more forgiving of oddities and tend to be simpler and more formal, and therefore easier to follow. But it only worked to explain social stuations, not interpersonal situations at home. At this point I'm trying to narrow down, not so much a label but a concept with solutions that might be workable for me. I hope that makes sense.

Thirdly I did confront them, which was a bad idea. I'd spent years thinking the problem was me, as I never felt I belonged or connected to my parents. And the confrontation was done out of desperation when trying to get some sort of understanding about my relationship with my parents, I was very depressed at the time which exacerbated the issue, ( I had no belief or perception that my parents were anything other than "normal" - that really was the problem I didn't know what I was looking for at all- AS has been a surprise to me but the only thing that makes sense at this time - although I think my Mum has anxiety & attachment issues. They are a pretty bland pair other than that, no drinking, smoking -anything -and no other mental health issues, so there are plenty of things I can rule out straight away.)

Fourth- approaching my parents, I tried many of the approaches suggested (prior to AS understanding), without much success in getting them to engage, but then I was looking for reciprocity, and some sense of willingness for them to invite me into their world, as apposed to just following them around, which is what it often feels like. The last time I went on holidays with them I was 28, had lived out of home since I was 17, yet in those 2 weeks my parents never asked how I was, either specifically or generally, what I wanted to do, and Dad even tried telling me I WAS going to go with them somewhere even after I told them I wasn't, he looked a little surprised when I refused and reminded him I wasn't 14 anymore! It is incidences like this never made any sense to me and I found hard to explain to others. Am I wrong in assuming this fits with ASD?

I feel lost in how to do this and not make it worse, particularly because I don't think they would be receptive at all to the idea of ASD. I came across Alexithymia first, and the description fits my Mum perfectly, I told her about it, which didn't go down well. Another poor choice it seems. My parents have a disdain for anything or anyone involved in psychology/psychiatry. I don't think it is a viable option, but I think they are missing out on understanding aspects of themselves they spend so much time trying to hide. I wasn't looking for a therapist, but just some feedback from those who have had to face this situation in someway.

Fifth - the issue of not comparing other parents, thanks for filling me in on what that looks like to others. I am not interested in creating or upsetting others, and I'll be more careful about things I say on this issue in the future. I guess for me it is a sensitive issue simply because I'm now in my mid-thirties working out issues no-one was prepared to take seriously when I was growing up, I was dismissed because no-one could see what I was talking about and kept pointing out to me "worse" situations. True or not it was unhelpful to me as I felt stuck in a place where I either had to exaggerate to get attention, ( I saw no need to make my parents out to be something they weren't, I just wanted to understand the disconnect between us), or try and reconcile the feeling of neglect, which didn't work and ended up being a internalised sense of worthlessness. To me it was an excuse for others not to get involved.

Sixth- Forgiveness. Totally agree. And I have forgiven them, I do accept they meant no harm, but reconciling with people who refuse to acknowledge that they are responsible for their choices is a bit hard to swallow. I feel that I have carried the responsibility of their imperfections, mistakes and inflexibility most of my life, and that I can no-longer do. I feel a lost that I never have, nor ever will have a relationship with them in which I can be myself, and be liked by them, that is not an AS issue, but a human one, and I don't know that I can find a way around it. So as to what I want from them? Easy- to be liked for who I am with out criticism. They asked me that too. I asked them what they wanted from me. They couldn't tell me.

Seven- mindfulness meditation. Love it. Best "therapy" I've been taught

Eight - I suck at IT stuff. How do you lift the quotes from posts others write ??

Thanks for all your feedback, it will take me a while to process it all, but it is appreciated. And I do have pretty think skin (most of the time), so say it like it is I won't be picking fights, nor will I be engaging in circular discussions, I know when to get of a merry-go-round

You lift posts by clicking the "Q-reply" button (or something like that) in the lower right-hand corner.

You parse the quote (or at least I do) by typing the word "quote" in brackets [ ] at the beginning and "/quote" in brackets at the end.

I suck at IT stuff too-- I majored in English, I have a house full of no-tech toys and old dusty books, I till my garden with a really big fork, and if Hubby weren't technological I wouldn't own a computer.


Yes-- a lot of the things you describe DO sound like un-self-aware ASD crap. It's a shame. And it is absolutely not your fault, has honestly very little to do with you. I'm still trying to work out how to bridge the communication gap-- how to make a relationship possible, and how to get them to consider becoming self-aware without having to deal with the implication that they're broken (which is, I'm almost sure, why it's so common to run up against anger, and denial, and angry denial).

Am I going to be able to do that?? I don't know. It's going to take a lot of patience and frustration on both our parts.

We MIGHT be able to work out the communication gap-- some of us Aspies here do have good relationships with our NT family, so it has to be possible. I have a CLOSE relationship with my NT folks-- but close doesn't always mean good. My relationship with Grandma is predicated on her frank denial that there's anything "wrong" with me, my relationship with the NT's on my dad's side is predicated on the acceptance of myself as inferior and subordinate (Saint Alan's was too-- it has as much to do with their PTSD as our Asperger's), and my relationship with my MIL is predicated on a friendly sort of pity for the very useful ret*d girl her son married.

They're good enough, but that's all they are. I can't imagine anyone's parents accepting that sort of predication for a relationship with their child-- it's hard enough to swallow when the equation goes the other way (they changed your diapers, or are old enough that they could have, or else you have for all of your life accepted them as your superiors).

If I ever figure out how to manage being self-aware without the concomitant implication of being broken, defective, hopeless, diseased, and inherently wholly and only to blame for any problems that arise-- well, I promise y'all will be the first to know how it's done.

Introduction of cultural differences are going to muddy the situation, at least for me, b/c even if I knew what culture it was I would not be confident enough in my knowledge of it, to parse things that are "typical" from those that are not. Whatever I may or may not have learned about the culture in school, long ago, is not going to be enough.

My husband is from a more rural culture than I am used to, and I have enough trouble dealing with that. Parents telling their adult kids what to do is something I recognize and is common in my husband's family but I am not sure if that is a family culture thing or something that just happens in this rural area. I have no idea how that applies in your case. I find my in-laws difficult b/c they really kind of look at their (independent adult or not) kids as commodities they can use as needed and even lend out to others for chores and such. We have withdrawn ourselves from this, and it has caused a great deal of conflict. They are not AS, by the way, but have grown up very poor, with built in co-dependence, which probably started out as financial necessity and then expectations expanded outward as power tends to, if you let it.

I also kind of doubt that NT parents as a whole want to hear criticism. I don't think anyone -really- does. I don't know how common it is for "bad" NT parents to be receptive to that and apologize, and validate the criticisms. I think the bad ones would be even less receptive to it. It would not be fair to compare good AS parents to bad NT parents, or good NT parents to bad AS parents.

I agree with you that when you complain about something, hearing about how other people have it worse is exceedingly unhelpful. I think AS people might do this if they just didn't want to deal with all the emoting, but an NT might do this also b/c they don't really like to hear complaining either. NTs also like things to be happy-happy-joy-joy and tend to think AS people are negative b/c we tend to complain and ruminate at times, and we don't get or understand the happy-happy-joy-joy expectations of society, all the time.

So, if you are looking for people IRL to vent to, I think that is hard b/c I don't think anybody in real life wants to hear too much negativity and complaining. That is why I mentioned that I think many of the posters who come on this thread, are "looking" for therapy. My phrasing or understanding may not have been great, but maybe I mean that they have great discord and trauma and are clearly frustrated that they cannot get anyone to listen and come on here with unrealistic expectations of what an Internet forum does. Much if it (not targeting anyone specifically, just the whole thread) just seems better suited to therapy.

Thanks, Adamantium. BuyerBeware, you write, "If I ever figure out how to manage being self-aware without the concomitant implication of being broken, defective, hopeless, diseased, and inherently wholly and only to blame for any problems that arise-- well, I promise y'all will be the first to know how it's done." -- well, I think that sums up how many of us feel. Of course having undiagnosed ASP parents is only one of many ways to end up feeling unloved, ugly and useless, and if you add a couple of world wars, the odd famine or massacre, exile and/ or poverty to the mix a few generations back you end up with the usual unholy mess that probably leaves the bulk of the adult population feeling in need of healing. But that is one of the continual hurdles in the NT-ASP debate on this forum. We NTs come here going, "oh wow, is THAT what its's all about?!" - just as some of you have described feeling yourselves - and seeking further information, detail, and points of comparison (not, I would contend, therapy!), only to be told, over and over again, no, no, no, that's not really AS, don't generalize!

I have been pondering some of the cool things about my AS mother, and come up with quite a lot - a shared passion for music, a keen interest in art history, a love for good writing (she read aloud to us EVERY NIGHT well into our teens), a strong will, a creative approach to problem-solving, a clear sense of moral purpose, and and and ... somehow although we grew up in a different country from our extended family, she managed to pass on a great deal of the collective family culture, and I was delighted, when I discovered my relatives again as an adult, how much we had in common, from songs and poems and favourite books to gestures, values, and more. So clearly there was a lot of functionality in there, and I have much for which to be grateful.

Just when I'd reached a fairly warm and fuzzy place, my mother posted a fairly ridiculous article opposing the use of vaccines for cervical cancer on Facebook. My sister, a scientist and cervical cancer survivor, tried to to explain to her why the article was misguided, providing a series of links to scientific journals and articles, to which my mother's response was to post on my sister's wall, "Cervical cancer is caused by promiscuity. If you don't have extra-marital sex, you won't get it." -- in other words, calling her own daughter a whore and then saying her cancer was her own fault. I am fairly sure that she didn't realize the extent to which she was offending my sister, but it really is one of her worse efforts. Interestingly, my cousin leapt into the fray. She had a mother (my mother's sister) who was pretty emotionally abusive to her, but not ASP. She sees my mother's behaviour as absolutely typical of the values and ways of interacting that all our grandmother's children were brought up to exhibit, as was our grandmother was herself... and fully explicable on those terms alone, without any AS. Of her own childhood, she says she can't believe how many people stood by, saw how her mother treated her, and just let it go on happening, and hopes that by weighing into the discussion with my mother she might be able, at least to a tiny degree, be able to repair some past wrongs.

This I doubt. I can't imagine my mother ever, EVER saying, "You know what? I see now that I was wrong to say that! I'm sorry!" It's just not going to happen. But here's the thing: In a context of AS, I can take what my mother said and say, "well, she's not being DELIBERATELY vindictive. She just doesn't get it." Take away the AS, and what she did was utterly, utterly culpable. Seeking to understand AS, and the way it may lead a parent to behave badly, helps me to move away from a position of pain and anger.

So you are basically saying you WANT to blame the AS so you can hold your mother to be less culpable?

Edited to add the following:

Let's go back to this:



If you are so desperately looking for something to blame so that it is not your mother's fault, why not the above? Why are you so anxious to hang it on AS? Alternately, are you saying you think your cousin is wrong and it is AS all around?

Um, so AS doesn't actually exist? Or AS only results in positive behaviour? Or anyone who behaves badly is not AS, or any AS person who behaves in a way that an NT person perceives as bad does so for reasons other than AS? Or is it just that my Mum is a b***h? I'm a bit confused...

Of course AS exists. That does not mean that your mother even has it. If she is undiagnosed, why are you so certain? What research have you done? Assuming she does have it , it does not make AS responsible for everything she does.

It would be akin to blaming everything an NT does on being NT, as opposed to expecting each NT person to be responsible for the things that he does. For example, let's say I know an NT person who becomes all hypersensitive when people don't want to socialize with her. (I do know such a person) When this happens she gets rude and pushy. Should I blame her NT mind for needing to socialize and not having TOM for others' needs or do I just realize she is a pushy person? I can either accept that that is how she is, talk to her about it, if I think she is capable of toning it down, or avoid her. None of this has to do with making NT a scapegoat.

Another example: With my son, there are things that he can't deal with b/c of his autism. I know what those things are b/c I have known him for almost 9 years, and I have done a heck of a lot of research. I don't make unrealistic demands if I can help it, and when reality requires that I do, I cut him slack if he can't meet/beat my expectations. Then there are things that he does that have nothing to do with AS. He will test boundaries like any other little boy. He doesn't want to go to bed, sometimes, just like any other little boy. You get the idea. I may have to discipline him differently b/c his punishment/reward system is totally different and standard parenting techniques don't work, but that does not mean I attribute everything he does to autism.

So, again, why are you so sure your issues with your mother all stem from AS?

Edited to add: I have never said everything connected with AS is like a sparkly unicorn with rainbows coming out of its behind. At the same time sometimes jerky behavior is just jerky behavior. You can be a b**** with AS, you can be a b****, without having AS, and you can have AS without being a b****.

Nowhere in the DSM does it list b****y as a characteristic of autism.

Last edited by ASDMommyASDKid on 14 Nov 2013, 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Do you realize that none of that is in the post you are responding to?

I don't think you are saying:
* AS only results in negative behaviour
* Anyone who behaves badly is AS,
* any AS person who behaves in a way that an NT person perceives as bad does so because of AS

Maybe a rush to hyperbolic extremes is not a great way to interpret other people's speech?

Well, if the idea is that you are trying to find an excuse for all of her negative attributes in parts of the Autistic Spectrum... then: Maybe.

What I have noticed is that different eras have different cultural norms. Some of them seem more like what people think of as autistic.

Back when men wore hats, for instance (a period I know only through film), the image of "normal" americans was one of low emotional communication, strict adherence to routines, black and white thinking (are you now or have you ever been a Communist? Why were you trying to get higher pay for all the people at your job? etc.) a lot of people raised in that era found their parents cold and unemotional in a way that is described as typical of some people with AS.

Of course, there are many with AS who are not like this. I am a child of the 1960s and 70s. In my early memories there were hippies in the park and lots of miniskirts. I went outside to watch a Saturn V go into orbit. I am much more open and sensitive and caring than a stereotypically NT person of the 1950s.

These generational things can have a big influence on our perception of our parents--perhaps they can be as big or bigger than neurological differences in some cases.

Many people have written about the differences between Veterans of different wars. Part of that seems to be to do with the changing technology of warfare and different theaters of combat, but part of seems to be the difference in the zeitgeist of different eras.

Anyway, I hope you make peace with your internalized image of your mother, no matter how things work out with your real mother.

EDITED TO ADD:


But what if the pressures of the culture she grew up in were as great an influence on her as AS traits might be on someone else?

Is she responsible for the Sunday school her parents sent her to? The way people in her town gossiped about people who got out of line in some way?

What if her wrongs are prompted by some factor other than Aspergers? Are some acceptable excuses and others not?

I am responsible for all my behavior. If I hurt someone because I did not realize the impact of my actions or words, I try like hell to heal that hurt as soon as I become aware of it. But that is because I am who my parents, culture and genes made me.

So it is for each person, regardless of their neurology.

I think the ASD and the cultural or family history factors end up intertwining, because of the rigidity that can be characteristic of ASD. A certain behavior was modeled for your mother, she accepted that as the way things were supposed to be, and emulated it. She could have done the opposite, but for whatever reason she didn't. Now that the concept is absorbed, seeing the defects in it is going to be extremely difficult for her. Once something is integrated, the ASD can make it very difficult to let go of. So while the ASD may not be the original source of the behavior, it could be the reason it gets held onto despite challenges from you and your sister and efforts to teach something different.

And I think I saw what you were saying about different things to blame and different sources. But I don't know how to paraphrase it, either. Just ... I think I get it.

Many thanks, all.

Sorry about the hyperbolic moment - I was just trying to condense a sentiment.

Why am I sure my mother is AS? Well, my view is much influenced by my sister, a neuroscientist, who happened upon Aspergers in the course of her psychology studies. She says that she thinks Mum has traces of narcissistic personality disorder too, but also says that diagnostics in general are a fraught field, and much in need of a major overhaul.

A few of our mother's characteristics: She has small areas of obsessive interest. She hoards. She cannot stand noise. She is averse to certain smells. She is passionately concerned about grammar and spelling. She does not pick up social cues. She has no friends. She has no interest in fashion or social convention. She does not perceive personal boundaries. She cannot read between the lines. She will say things which are wildly socially inappropriate and not notice that she has offended people. Her reactions in social contexts are always related to herself (eg if told that someone's been in a horrible accident and had a limb amputated, she might think for a moment and then say, "Well, I'm glad it didn't happen to me!"). She is emotionally sensitive in terms of her own needs but struggles to perceive the needs of others. It isn't that she isn't interested in other people - she is - just that she lacks the social tools to maintain a functional relationship. She will approach total strangers with a long-winded narrative (along the lines of, "Look, I'm knitting these socks for my brother with circular needles, because circular needs are MUCH better, and if you use them with the right weight of yarn..." etc), and not notice whether or not the other person is interested in what she's saying, rather like a 3-year-old in a playground going, "LOOK AT MEEEEE!" She likes a rigid routine, and also the rigidity of religious belief. She has an unquestionable certainty that she occupies the higher moral ground, not least because she is incapable of really listening to anybody who speaks from a different position. I could go on... in any case I rather doubt that there is a steel box called "AS" and that everyone fits exactly into it or exactly outside it. That is, as my sister might say, part of the problem with diagnostics, which are often skewed by a pharmaceutical industry keen to sell drugs that many people probably don't need.

Yes! Generations, cultural expectations and influences, all these things have always made parent-child relationships challenging, and all of them raise questions which it is interesting to ponder. But isn't part of the point of AS as a definition that it gives us a framework to understand an otherwise pretty inexplicable set of personality characteristics, and through understanding them, perhaps, take steps to help the outside world better understand the person with AS and the person with AS better able to understand the outside world?

My mother sometimes behaves in monstrous ways. She does things which I simply cannot understand, because I couldn't imagine, in a million years, saying some of the things she says or acting in some of the ways she does. Reading about AS gives me some clues which help me see my mother's socially inappropriate behaviour as stemming from a certain set of personality characteristics which make her UNABLE to see the world as others see it, to read social clues, to know why it isn't good to say certain things in certain situations, to put herself in someone else's shoes, etc. I'm not for a moment suggesting that this applies to all people with AS, or that AS people can't learn to read social clues etc. I like to imagine that if my mother had been diagnosed as a child and offered support, she might have become a different kind of parent.

I'm not saying AS exonerates her from behaving badly, but if I can believe and partly understand that her mind functions differently from mine, it helps me better to live with some of the things that happen. Is that so bad, or so misguided?

Thanks also DW, for the suggestion that AS can accentuate certain family habits or learned behavioural patterns. It was a revelation to me a couple of years back to watch a couple of my uncles engage in a fairly intense argument about a piece of family inheritance. Both of them argued like loving adults, constantly checking back on the other's feelings, with a maturity and tenderness that quite blew my mind - both of them cared a lot, each had very different ideas, but they were able to have a discussion without hurting each other. And I realised that my mother hasn't made that kind of emotional development at all, and doesn't have those capacities, and I felt a bit sad about it. We're talking three people with the same family background and inherited culture, but who have developed in terms of "emotional intelligence" in completely different ways.

Anyhow, thanks for getting it!! ! Xx.

^^^This helps.

There is a lot in here that looks like AS: Sensory issues, special interests, lack of social interest, lack of theory of mind, etc. I completely understand wanting to to understand those things within the framework of AS. I think the problem is, you have someone who also may have Narcissistic Personality Disorder and that is a whole different deal. Also, it may just be a good dose of plain old toxicity.

There are a lot of issues with blurry edges around diagnosis, but if you read the information on it, you will see that just b/c there is self-centeredness involved it does not make AS, NPD, and regular NT selfishness the same thing. I think that was what was alluded to by those of us who said it looks like something else is involved. It does not quite fit with AS. I am not saying that her AS qualities have not affected you, but the things that you complain most vehemently about are not central to the diagnosis. Not all NTs are good at self-editing their obnoxious opinions.

Also, maybe it is b/c of the part of the country I find myself, but I can assure you dogmatic religious application is alive and well in the NT world. I agree with DW_a_Mom that yes, rigidity can manifest in this subject as it can in anything else, but at the same time it doesn't take an expert in the field to see that this particular rigidity is all around us. Politics and religion seem to bring that out in people, of all neurological stripes.

AS is not causing your mother to cast aspersions on your sister,and I do not think her being NT would have necessarily caused that to be any different. She may have worded it slightly more politely, but if it is that strong an opinion of hers, she probably would not have kept it to herself. Even if she did, she'd probably still be thinking it. Mothers are well-known for sharing obnoxious, unsolicited opinion to their children, especially, daughters. I have this issue with my NT mom on a regular basis on a variety of subjects.

I am not an expert enough in NPD to parse that from regular person issues, although I strongly suspect my M-I-L has something like this or like Borderline Disorder. Again, dumping everything into the AS box is the problem, here. I know a lot of miserable people that are clearly NT and the notion that I would go and willy-nilly attribute things about them to NT is ridiculous.

Again, I am still not thinking understanding AS is your main point. It sounds to me from your various posts that you want to go point by point, and get a chorus of "me-too's." Then you want to go and put everything you can that you don't like about your mother in the AS box, so you can forgive her b/c it is not "her fault." Forgiving her would make you feel better. I am not saying this to be inflammatory, and you can blame my AS "truthtelling" if you want.

I guess my main point is that you can forgive her if you want, without needing to dump all over AS. She's older, she lived a difficult life, and if you want to lump AS and NPD into that mix, as part of the whole that is one thing. It is the focal point of AS and the intent to make it an explanation for everything that is the issue, at least with me.

Last edited by ASDMommyASDKid on 15 Nov 2013, 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

*headscratch*

I'm trying to figure it out, because I'm willing to bet it would make it a lot more possible for NT kids to go back and talk to ASD parents about what happened (not to mention for me to learn from mistakes without losing days to giving up on myself entirely, thus making things a lot smoother around here). The self-esteem thing-- If we can beat or sidestep that, we can get to "I was wrong, I screwed up, and I'm sorry." If we can find a way to get over that nasty closed-minded defensiveness, there can be honest and open conversation and healing (maybe).

It's a shame that you don't ever think your mom will manage to back up, re-evaluate her behavior, and admit to being wrong. It would be good for you; I feel pretty safe hazarding that it would also be good for her. Change who she is?? I doubt it-- she's old now, those changes take huge amounts of effort and time, and I can't see it passing a cost-benefit analysis. I am only 35, and I am rapidly reaching the point of "I am what I am." Still-- to recognize error and apologize is HUGE, effects some small level of change, and prevents a lot of collateral damage.

In the example of the HPV comment-- oh, I can see where she's coming from. Those vaccines are a huge risk (and one that's large in my mind, with a 12-year-old daughter); the HPV that causes a good slice of cervical cancers really is spread by sexual contact. But the comment is still ATROCIOUS, especially in the context of talking directly to a cervical cancer survivor. Your Mum probably isn't going to change her views or basic personality-- but how much better would it be if, instead of getting defensive and foul, she could say, "Oh, Suzy, I didn't mean that you're the Whore of Babylon and it's all your own fault!! That wasn't even on my mind AT ALL!! I'm SO SORRY I gave you that impression..."

I could see myself sticking my foot in my mouth the same way, could see Saint Alan doing it too. I can even see us missing the error-- but I can also see us apologizing once we realized just exactly what it was we'd done. Come to think of it, that's how we got into some of those epic fights back in the day... and also why we ended up in the rocking chair making up.

I believe these are called "emotional repair skills." If an old stoned guy and I could figure them out, pretty much in a vacuum, that has to mean that they're teachable if one can work around or defuse the resistance...

Dunno-- but I suspect that, if solutions are going to be arrived at, it's almost going to HAVE to happen here. Some place like here, where we drag these things out and talk about them.

*sigh* At least being able to move away from pain and anger is a good thing. Pain and anger suck. They hurt. You're a remarkable woman and I want for you that your should not have to live in pain and anger.

Last edited by BuyerBeware on 15 Nov 2013, 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

Another thought: NPD is the whipping boy around here any time we all need to feel better about our Aspieness. I'm not going to debate that one way or another; it's just something observed, though I'd say the difference between them is whether or not you're aware of what it is you are doing.

The relevant question I started out to ask is, How does one end up with NPD in the first place?? Last I heard, the personality disorders were still believed to result from choices one made in response to life circumstances (had some group therapy with a lady who was suffering terribly with dependent and avoidant personality disorders-- poor thing, stuck in a room with a cheerful Aspie!! !)

I wonder if Aspies might not be more prone to developing NPD-- possibly from growing up in a world where things don't quite make sense and it seems like everyone's waiting for an excuse to whack us over the head again?? It sort of looks that way sometimes... Like, if an Aspie doesn't keep a pretty firm eye on mental health and "Who do I want to see in the mirror?" type questions in adolescence, things like NPD or DPD or AvPD might end up being what comes out of the trauma...

How all this might help Jenufa or LMP I am really not sure. It has the feel of usefulness-- but it seems like it might be useful like something in a junk heap might be useful. Not at the moment or as it is, but cleaned up and at some point in the future, possibly useful.

I'm sorry I'm not smarter. **hugs**

BuyerBeware,

I did not mean to dump on NPD, either. I tried to be careful about my wording. I do not know what the co-morbid rates are, but to me it is very distinct from AS, in a way that seems less so than other things like ADD, OCD and even ODD. ODD is a pretty serious diagnosis in its own right that also has a lot of stigma baggage, so I don't think I am separating NPD out of bias, though it may be that I am, inadvertently. I am going to have to look up NPD, again, for my own clarification.

Edited to add:

Here is a quick and dirty look up of NPD from Wikipedia:


Symptoms of this disorder, as defined by the DSM-IV-TR include:[1]

Expects to be recognized as superior and special, without superior accomplishments
Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others
Envies others and believes others envy him/her
Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence
Lacks the ability to empathize with the feelings or desires of others
Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior
Has expectations of special treatment that are unrealistic


The only one that looks like it is a possible overlap, would be the empathy one, and AS people don't lack empathy so much as have issues showing empathy in NT understood and approved way. I didn't see it here, in my quick skim, but I believe oversensitivity Ie. "touchiness" is also a trait with NPD.I am not saying it can't be a co-morbid. I will need to look to see if I can find co-morbid rates

Here is Wikipedia's list of causes:

Causes

The cause of this disorder is unknown; however, Groopman and Cooper list the following factors identified by various researchers as possibilities:[2]

An oversensitive temperament at birth;
Excessive admiration that is never balanced with realistic feedback;
Excessive praise for good behaviors or excessive criticism for bad behaviors in childhood;
Overindulgence and overvaluation by parents, other family members, or peers;
Being praised for perceived exceptional looks or abilities by adults;
Severe emotional abuse in childhood;
Unpredictable or unreliable caregiving from parents;
Learning manipulative behaviors from parents;
Valued by parents as a means to regulate their own self-esteem.

Some narcissistic traits are common and a normal developmental phase. When these traits are compounded by a failure of the interpersonal environment and continue into adulthood, they may intensify to the point where NPD is diagnosed.[11] Some psychotherapists believe that the etiology of the disorder is, in Freudian terms, the result of fixation to early childhood development.[12]

Looking at causes I could see where co-morbids would exist:

Oversensitive temperament at birth is a frequent condition with AS.
Excessive praise, overindulgence and related issues could result from overcompensating for AS.
Bad parenting might correlate with inability to know how to parent an AS child or other issues that cluster in families that have AS.

All of these things can obviously exist without a smidgen of AS to be found.

So, To summarize, NPD is not AS, but I can see where they might be co-morbid. That said, anything that is problematic b/c of NPD is still caused by NPD. I still would not lump in anything bad as being NPD b/c that is just as unfair as lumping everything as being AS. People can just be cr***y people and make bad choices that affect other people without it being attributable to a disorder, and grown ups should own what they do.

I stand by my statement that not everything someone with ASD does is b/c of ASD.