Am I Wrong in Being Irritated?

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I am an NT how is raised by at least one autistic parent. Growing up it hurts, my dad (the one being autistic, undiagnosed but check every box, esp in mannerisms and being unable to read body language) and my mom (now I suspect that she has more of an anxiety disorder, which leads her to aspergers/autism like behavior but I think she might just be hiding behind that social blindness to protect herself from people in general, because people and things freak her out, although there might be a lesser degree of aspergers too) would get me into embarrassing and awkward/painful situations. My parents would simply not understand what is cool/nice to do, even the most obvious, they don't understand aesthetics, and they'd say things like "I don't understand how dance/ballet is enjoyable to people". Somethings they are just outlandish and I become very uncomfortable, but they never pick up. They have strict routines and rules about things but they don't seem to understand the meanings behind, association and correlation challenges them in human context, drinking/going out is inversely proportioned to good grades to them even if it doesn't have to, explaining power/motives/incentives (things like how and why the law is written to particular groups' advantages, how opportunity cost governs decision making etc.) to them is like explaining color to the blind.
Now, I know I am talking to an autistic help forum and I'm probably preaching to the opposite crowd, but I have a tendency to try to prove a point against the odds, which might say more poorly about me than my parents themselves. I don't mean any bad intension/harm, but I have been struggling in these circumstances, am I the only one who is struggling with this? And, ultimately, am I a bad person in believing that a person on that spectrum should not responsibly have children? I know that growing up being hurtful to parents who don't understand is very leading, but I can't be wrong in believing that children around the world deserve parents who can connect right? And really, since I can gauge other people's body language, I am hyper tuned into others' slightest discomfort regardless of whether I am to do with any of that, am I wrong in blaming my parents for my hypersensitivity and social anxiety?

For the first part of your question, looking for people who can relate to your experience, I will suggest our long running thread, "Raised by an Asperger's Parent."

For the second part of your question, suggesting that it is always irresponsible for someone with ASD to become a parent, I am going to heartily disagree. Let's start with this simple reality: no one gets the perfect parent. NO ONE. It's like the universe believes you MUST have something to complain about as an adult, and the way your parents were is an easy way for kids to do that. Second, ASD parents vary in their ability to "connect" to their children just as NT (nuerotypical) parents do. Just because a parent has social skills, doesn't mean they will automatically be able to understand and connect to their soft-hearted, artistic daughter if mom and dad are rowdy sports enthusiasts. Nor does it mean they will choose to try to connect, instead of trying to force their own priorities and choices onto their child. NT parents can be &#@*(!@s just as ASD parents can be, you just won't find a label for their annoyed and frustrated children to blame it on. ASD children can be just as harmed growing up in an NT household as an NT child can be growing up in an ASD household. It has a lot less to do with labels that might describe the parents than it does the parent's personalities and choices.

Certainly, there are ways that being on the spectrum makes parenting more challenging. Our members have discussed those and how to deal with them. But more challenging does not mean insurmountable, nor does it take the scales and definitively tip them in one direction. It simply means that the individual needs to understand and compensate for their own issues and limitations, just as anyone else does. Today's spectrum parents are more likely to know who they are, what their own limitations are, AND how to compensate for those limitations than any generation before them. That makes a HUGE difference, and it is offensive to suggest that because of a label they aren't gong to be capable of figuring things out when they actually do have enough awareness to realize they need to adjust.

Are you a bad person for proposing that someone on the spectrum should not have children? No, you are simply WRONG in your assumptions, analysis and conclusion.

I do feel sorry for everyone who feels that their parents lacked some of the basic essentials it would have taken for them to feel positive about their childhood experiences. I have a father who I believe was ASD and while he was pretty mild and our conflicts were pretty limited compared to some of the stories, I do get it: going through the Raised by an Asperger's Parent thread was revealing for me, at times, in ways I had not expected. But at some point we, as adults, have to own who we are and not throw everything back to imperfect parents, realize that no one has perfect parents no matter how much it looks that way from the outside, and consider that there were good things, too, sometimes in the most unexpected ways. And we have to realize that we can't summarize the whole of our complaints in life into a single concept or word like "Aspergers;" no one is going to let you get off that easy; life is far too nuanced and complicated.

I think you have a journey to go on and it sounds like you've barely started. You may not be ready for much I've written here, but given the wider reading audience this forum gets, I could not let your conclusion go unchallenged. Maybe when you are further along the journey you will understand my point; I don't really expect you to change your mind from this one post, and I hope that I haven't brought out in the fight in you. I do think you would find value in reading through the thread I mentioned, and that may be a good place to visit next. Putting together the pieces of your childhood, the way you were parented, and your feelings about it all is not a simple process, but you most certainly are not alone, and I hope you will eventually find what you seek.

I think all teenagers and young adults go through a phase in which they finally see their parents as people, instead of simply "mom" and "dad." I think that for many people, that brings on feelings of disappointment, disillusion and irritation. It allows a critical view that doesn't really happen when you still view them primarily as "mom and dad."

My dad is an undiagnosed Aspie, I am certain of it. When I was younger, I often felt annoyed or felt like I was cheated because I didn't get the kind of dad that I thought a kid "should" have. He did not meet my needs, and was probably incapable of being the kind of dad that a kid like me needed. I was hyper sensitive and he was hyper critical. Not a good match at all. Would I have been better off with a different kind of man for a father? Possibly. But...

...Then one day I realized that if my mom had not had my dad's child, I would not be here to even question whether or not he should have had kids. I only exist because he had kids. For as messed up as I sometimes feel I am , I am still glad I exist. And I exist thanks to both of my parents.

Now I just see that my dad did the best he could. Was he a "good" dad in terms of the things that kids "need" from their parents? No. Not really. But he did the best that he could, even though it wasn't enough, and I have decided that that is enough for me. No one is perfect and I could have definitely had a worse dad. No one should expect more from someone than they can possibly give. Plus, I learned a lot of things from having a less than perfect dad. A lot of my strengths as an adult probably exist because of our relationship growing up. It's quite possible I would not be as strong if I would have had an "easier" childhood.

Should people on the spectrum have kids? I think the question really is "should people have kids?" Some should. Some shouldn't. It doesn't have to do with their wiring, per se, but a whole host of other factors. I think the fact that I tend to be spectrummy myself has been a huge benefit for my kids. My son has actually said it has been, in different words. Basically "I am glad you are weird like me because you understand me. Dad tries to, but he can't. I am lucky I have you."

You are not a bad person for asking these questions or wondering these things. The trick to keeping it healthy is to keep it moving forward and not to get stuck in negative thinking that casts shadows on the rest of your life. It's OK to see the negatives, provided that is not all you see. It is up to you to find balance as you move through this.

You're not a bad person to think and feel this, but you're doing a bad thing if you blame a label and then generalize to say it's everyone with that label who is no good at connecting. That's a path to prejudice and hatred. So I think it's good you're asking the question and hope you're open to other ways to look at this.

Be angry, blame your parents if you need to. I think to a point, that's honest and sometimes, one needs to. Just, eventually realize they may not have known their limitations, probably did the best they could, and it's your life now to live the best way you can.

Connecting to one infant you can get to know is a very different thing than connecting socially and making small talk well, talking to young children is nothing like talking with adults....I've heard your point made before, but although my childen don't consider me perfect, they like having me for a mom.

Did your parents make you feel special, provide understanding, support the things you have wanted for yourself? Or is it the not listening and trying to understand your point of view that's most troubling, or something else? I'm just wondering the specifics of why you are feeling as you do.

I don't think you're going to get much agreement here - mostly because there are basically (but not exclusively) two types of people who inhabit this sub-forum 1) Parents on the spectrum and 2) People with kids on the spectrum who may hope and aspire that their children will one day marry and parent - and there's also some overlap between these two groups.

I think you are likely to get a range of these responses:
1. Autism is a spectrum and therefore just because one person with ASD has been a bad parent doesn't mean that everyone on the spectrum is a bad parent.
2. Whatever problems in parenting YOUR parent may have had wasn't down to ASD, but probably because of a co-morbid. High Functioning Austism does not make bad parenting.
3. NTs can also be bad parents, therefore its wrong to associate bad parenting with Autism.

All of these things can be partly true. However, I believe that features of autism - poor cognitive shifting, poor theory of mind, poor cognitive empathy - are essential tools of parenting. Where people with autism may feel affective empathy - this can make them quite distressed - leading to poor "effective empathy" - the feeling and actions needed to make the other person feel that they are being empathised with. Children who are pre-verbal or poorly verbal (and all kids go through these stages!) are unable to articulate their needs and are absolutely reliant on their parents to understand their needs and act on them. Even kids who are little chatterboxes may not be able articulate their emotional needs which parents do need to meet.

There also seems to be almost universally an inability to accept that autism related deficits translate to parenting deficits. I do not understand why this should be in a population of articulate, high functioning people, but it seems to be the case.

From http://www.theneurotypical.com/parents-with-aspergers.html

This means you're going to continue to get the three answers you see above cycled continuously on this forum. I see it in my own husband who was raised by someone on the spectrum, complained about her parenting approaches and makes the exact same mistakes but cannot see the impact of his behaviour. We all repeat our parents' mistakes somewhat, but his is to a high degree.

Anyway nearly out of power...must post now...

If you would please, cite the level of expertise and the credentials of the creators of The Neurotypical website? I read their "About Us" page, and except for finding it presumptive and to varying degrees offensive, I was unable to find any information that anyone on the site is anyone other than a disillusioned or bitter NT.

I find it sad that as a regular poster here, Elkclan, that you continue to view the ASD parents here as lacking insight. Is it possible that there are autie parents out there who lack insight? Absolutely, but I can think of NT parents within my very narrow circle, who lack insight about the overall impact of their parenting problems on their kids. That is part of being human, not part of being on the spectrum.



Ummm...because you are making an absolute, blanket statement that may not apply to all cases. You are not saying that autism related deficits can translate to parenting deficits (no one would disagree with that), you are saying that autism related deficits do translate to parenting deficits (I don't know how any articulate, high functioning person could agree with a statement like that.) Unless you are willing to accept that all parents have deficits, many of whom have no idea how their deficit impacts their kid (otherwise, I will err on the side of benevolence and assume they would mediate their deficit). In which case, if all parents have deficits, and many don't recognize the need to mediate, what is the purpose of pinning it to autism? What is everyone else's excuse?

If you flip it, how fair does it sound to say "All NT parents of ASD kids have deficits in interacting appropriately with their ASD children. Because they are unable to comprehend what it means to experience the world through an ASD lens, they are unable to mitigate their deficits and are unable to even see the negative impact of their parenting deficts on their ASD children."

That statement is equally as "fair."

And it's preposterous. While there are a sizable number of NT parents who will never really "get it" and who bumble through their parenting doing all kinds of things that damage their ASD kid's sense of self and self-esteem, there are others who work very hard and find their way. They are good parents, despite their inability to ever truly understand what it is like to experience the world through their kid's perspective. Truly, if you cannot understand someone's perspective, all the empathy in the world will not help. In fact, a misguided belief that you DO understand the other person's perspective and that you ARE empathizing is probably more harmful than simply not getting it at all. It causes people to plow forward, insisting they are "right" and doing the "right" thing.

Why should being able to mediate your difficulties be something only possible for NT parents?

I am so very saddened right now by what I see to be senseless bias

Elkclan, you are taking your own personal experience in your family/extended family, and inappropriately generalizing it to all families who have ASD members. That error is very damaging to people who's experiences do not match yours, because it provides fodder for people who are disillusioned or bitter, without providing the possibility of a balancing viewpoint: What happens with your husband and what happened with his mother is but ONE possibility. Not all people have that same experience. And even if you can find a million people who have had the same experience, it doesn't mean that all people have the same experience. You are also setting your argument up so that it is impossible for anyone on the spectrum to argue against it because you can simply say that we all lack insight and the ability to cognitively shift.

Are you sure YOU don't have ASD?

Your profile says you're 45 years old. That seems a little (okay a lot) old to be blaming your parents for anything. From your post I can't see that they did anything horrible to you. They didn't beat you, neglect you, make you feel unloved. They just embarrassed you sometimes. Almost everyone finds their parents embarrassing - it's practically a requirement of humanity.
Do you live with your parents? Do you have a job? Married, kids, etc.?

My apologies for assuming you are a teen or young adult. I hope I didn't offend you.

Just so you know, it is common for people to realize that they may be on the spectrum themselves after finding out someone in their family is. I thought I was 100% "normal" until I had my kids. Learning about ADHD and ASD has made a lot of stuff from my childhood and younger years make a lot more sense.

The 45 years old in the profile is due to a bug in the forum software that Alex is trying to fix. It even says that I'm 45 years even though I've put the correct date of birth in my profile page. I don't think that's the actual age of the OP.

Likely another WP glitch: viewtopic.php?t=276338

My profile says I'm 45 too which conflicts with my actual age suddenly being publicly displayed here.

I didn't see Jono's post til after I posted ... walked away, did some chores, saw it when I came back and refreshed the page ... and now it's too late to edit or delete my post. Does anyone know if that's also a glitch that will be fixed or is that deliberate? I am so unhappy with how this site is currently being run.

I apologize about the age. I didn't know about the glitch.

Elkclan, you're wrong. That's all I have the energy to say about that right now.

I'm glad InThisTogether made those points and won't repeat. While it's true that autism probably inevitably results in some difficulties with parenting, lots of other things do, too. And what is often missed in this kind of discussion is what those deficits in theory of mind really translates into....there's probably always some level of difficulty with understanding and participating in complicated social interactions one has no experience of and does not understand. I am confused and upset by people lying and playing at who's more important than who, and by hierarchies.

What is not inevitable is difficulty understanding the basic experience young children have. Being on the spectrum does not mean I lack understanding what it means to feel tired, or thirsty, or hungry, or scared. Those are very basic human experiences that everyone has had. And one can certain figure out or learn what the signals are and what to do about these issues that are so important for making young children feel secure when they are at their most vulnerable. As already stated, a high functioning person with ASD who fails to understand and respond to their child's thirst or to learn to respond to it has something else going on. Young children's needs are intense, they are important to respond to, having ASD can certainly make it harder as it's making life harder, but much of what's written that's most negative really isn't the ASD. And ASD certainly does not have to mean an inability to be safe around young and vulnerable children.

I just do not understand the way difficulty dealing with others peoples mixed messages and demand for social conformity is being confounded with inability to respond to basic needs. These are completely different issues, to me anyway. Yes, some people on the spectrum need care, some aren't able to see and respond to others needs, but it's a spectrum. Many are.

I hope I am not alone in seeing it this way.

And yet, without commenting on if I agree, many many people have ventured into the Raised by an Asperger's Parent thread and felt that they have received information that helps them understand and reconcile their feelings.

And yet, many of us were raised by ASD parents ourselves, and are capable of seeing the positives as well as the negatives. My relationship with my father had its difficult aspects, but I have never wished for a different father. I can think of many, many, MANY common issues friends of mine have had with their fathers that I NEVER had to worry about with mine, and I am more than content with the trade off.

It remains, in the end, a person by person judgment call, if an ASD individual can make a "good enough" parent (no one is a perfect parent), as so many things do, and painting an entire group of people with a single brush conclusion will ALWAYS be unfair and incorrect.

I will add one more thing: while I believe I might be part of the broader autism phenotype, and my husband believes he is likely to be ASD, neither of us formally diagnosed nor acknowledged as such, we've gotten a LOT of positive feedback on our parenting. After I took my son to a new psychologist to get testing and a report for his SAT accommodations, she took me aside and told me how happy she was to see such a happy and well adjusted ASD child, very comfortable in his own skin and understanding/accepting of his own limitations, since she usually sees children desperately hoping to change who they are, and filled with anger and resentment as a result. She said she loved that our family had embraced its quirkiness, and that she saw it as a positive thing for all of us. Similar feedback has come back to me over the years from various specialists and teachers my son has worked with, as well as my (mostly) NT daughter's teachers. We aren't perfect, and we reach out for help when we struggle, but we do have kids who are NOT going to be posting on a forum like this complaining about us some day in the future. I've made friends with other local parents who have ASD children, many of whom are ASD themselves, and I see the same things with them: they are raising happy and well adjusted kids. So it isn't a stretch for me to feel that others on the spectrum may well be capable of being good parents. It is a SPECTRUM, and the impairments are not the same for each different individual. Some people with ASD have impairments that cannot be bridged when becoming parents, others do. It all depends on exactly where on the spectrum a person is, and how that has affected them as unique individuals.

OK I understand that it is a spectrum and not everyone will have the same experience, but it took me so many years to figure that I'm not crazy in feeling something is being off, but I can't put it to words to my parents, especially when I was just 12. Some parents, whether or not they are on this spectrum, would have problems connecting with their children, but regardless, I think being on this spectrum and having kids is an extra risk you are taking on someone else's behalf, especially when that someone is particularly vulnerable. Anyway, I am in my early 20s, not 45.

There are any number of "extra" risks one can take and I would bet most families have something that is an extra risk.

I really think the Internet needs to take a break from telling people what risks they ought not to take.

I think it takes a certain amount of chutzpah to insist people have perfectly ideal situations before they are entitled to reproduce.

I do think that the decision to have children is something that should not be taken lightly, but that part of living in a free-ish society is that we trust people to make those decisions, knowing that there will be a certain amount of bad decisions being made.

I know this probably seems like a tangent, but the Internet seems to be a place that it is OK to tell poor people they ought not reproduce, lecture pregnant women on how paranoid they ought to be to have the optimal baby, and an assortment of other self-righteous B.S.

Are there things that people with AS should be extra aware of? Sure. That said I think a self-aware aspie is going to be a better parent than a lot of people.

This is not so much a response to the OP, as a general response to some of what underlies some of the responses and as a general comment.