Threatened with a knife

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This incident described by the OP is premeditated. It can't be described in any other terms.

Now there is a differnce between impulsive premeditation and carefully planed premeditation.

This is more impulsive, however becuase he was aggrieved he went and got the knife, opened it, went back and charge at her. That is a decision not a reflex.

I think you are assuming lack of judgment and lack of ability to process a situation proportionally is the the same as reflex it isn't.

It is still a decision not a reflex.

Last edited by 0_equals_true on 22 Oct 2015, 6:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Agreed, this is sort of area CBT is made for. Breaking down the whole cycle.

I can't speak for this child, but I know for my own son, it was not a decision. He was perfectly capable of unconsciously carrying out multi-step processes without planning them; afterward he was frightened at what he had done and could barely remember or describe what happened. This was also the case with other behaviors of his, like having to go well out of his way and almost "dance" to go around cracks or lines on the floor.

We did not have success dealing with his behavior until we (all of us, including my son) decided to treat it as though it was not in his control, so whether or not it fit neatly into one category or the other wasn't really pertinent.

People choose the definitions they feel comfortable with, in any legal or rational sense it involves choice. Unless the person is not compos mentis, in that case their brain is making choices but they are not sound of mind. Typically this is episodic and psychotic. It could be analogous to a strange dream. It may make sense during but not necessarily after.

Choice can be impulsive and stupid, but it is still choice.

The choice is, he could have got a rolling pin or a kitchen knife or a feather duster, there are a number of things that could have happened. These are not some objects that he has no idea what they are or how to use.

Reflex is a strong word. Fainting (Syncope) is a reflex, this is a rapid involuntary action which doesn't require conscious action. The effect of it is the body end up in a position it can normalize blood flow to the brain, unfortunately you can also crack your head on something on the way down, so not so perfect mechanism.

You can train to some extent more fluid spontaneous reactions ("muscle memory"), however this automation is governed by choice. There are functions of the brain driven by self and some independent ones. However anything reasonably complex, such as interacting with someone involves self.

Having said the free will is only there in a relative sense from the POV of "minds eye". You can argue chaos and your biology are driving the brain activity. That is fine, however this still not change personal responsibility, it is not a defense becuase we are held accountable relative to self, becuase that is who we are.

An action that is not consciously planned still may have implicit intent, as much of our behaviors are caused by implicit processes that people are not consciously aware. It is ackshuly worse to have violent/threatening behaviors caused by implicit processes, as implicit is harder to control. The act of going to get a knife suggests implicit intent towards harmful violence. It doesn't matter if the person is consciously remorseful later or knows it is wrong to threaten others with a knife. Knowing all this, a person could still do the same in another situation in future, with worse consequences. I normally don't get disturbed by some meltdowns or fits of kids hitting others, but this one is disturbing, as I can't recall a single instance when I was angry when I went to get a weapon or the thought of getting a weapon occurred to me, and I think this is true of most people too.

He also may have seen something similar on TV or in a movie or read it in a book, magazine, online or evenat school in something a friend had or heard someone talking about something similar. If that's the vase then he had a whole different idea of how doing that was going to be AMD what it meant and what the consequences are.

Usually when parents let their kids watch stuff like that we remind them occasionally that its just entertainment and they are acting and the real deal doesn't go down like that nor does it work out like that afterwards. If you don't let your kids watch that stuff then you may not have ever thought to mention it. Plus, kids find ways to see things we tell them they can't watch. Even if he didn't go looking for it, you don't have control over what he sees at school and at friends houses. Also kids, especially boys, talk a lot about movies they saw like that or fights they heard about etc. He could have easily heard or saw something that gave him the idea.

If I were you I'd talk to him now, since the drama has died down, and ask where he got the idea. Don't lead him, but after you talked about it ask him if he's ever seen anything like that on TV or read anything like that.

I always let mine watch what they want and we never had any problems because we would tell them fairly often that it wasn't real. We only had one TV when they were young too, so unless we made them go into another room when we watched TV, they were going to be exposed to it. I've always wondered how parents who are really picky about what their kids watch, go about watching TV themselves if they only have one TV. I know you could watch what you want when the kids go to bed but what do you do if your show comes on at 7 or 8 and your kid goes to bed at 9 and he's not very good at staying in his room to play. Or if he's over 7 or 8 himself and goes to bed at 10 and Sons of Anarchy comes on at 9? They usually don't pay attention to what parents watch but some parents wouldn't even want them in the same room. Parents who monitor the TV, how do you handle that anyway?

This is what I meant - except I think the act of going for a knife probably has the implicit intent of self-defense (even if it isn't appropriate in the given situation.) Framing it that way is important, because it gives you a direction to work with your child on when they are and are not safe.

Having been through this and come out the other side with my son who is now fifteen, it is not that pathological response - as Olive Oil Mom points out, there are LOTS of cultural messages out there indicating that violence is the first response for males who feel unsafe. We were very, very careful with media, but we couldn't combat all the cultural messages that my black-and-white thinking son wasn't able to process exaggeration/hyperbole.

Thus, (keeping in mind that this was an extended problem and not a one-time issue for us, so it may not apply to the OP) - we told my son that if he couldn't keep himself from violent actions, he couldn't have access to anything that was remotely violent: no water guns, no nerf guns, no superheroes, nothing. We told him he could earn the right to have access to those things by proving he was mature enough to understand the difference between pretend behavior and the behavior we expected of him - a month without violence meant he got one thing back, but he would lose it immediately if there was an incident after that. My son was highly motivated, and he did manage to learn in part due to those goals.

We set out clear rules of that behavior and wrote up a contract: No angry touching. We were clear that this extended to any living thing, so not us, not other people, not the dog, etc. No throwing or breaking things. No screaming loud enough to hurt our ears. Then, we offered alternatives: when you feel your hands or jaw clench, go to your room (being alone for 10 minutes was usually all my son needed to calm down) If you can't do that, we will go to our room. We also listed the consequences of the behavior (loss of access to the media he preferred and suspension of privileges for 1 night.)

Things had become so extreme with my son that when he was about 8, our counselor suggested that I NOT comfort him physically after one of these incidents - that he needed to understand there was a clear line between bad touch and good touch, and that if he hit me, I was not to touch him for 24 hours. I've posted this here before and it often gets a negative response, but it did help my son learn the consequences of hurting someone. (I did continue with our normal routine, so he did get bedtime story, me verbally saying I loved him, etc - and his Dad would give him hugs, so it wasn't withdrawing care or love or help - just the touch of the person he hurt.) Although that was effective, it was really, really hard on all of us - and we were at the point of last resort after years of this behavior (my son started hitting me when he was 3.)

What constitutes appropriate use of this knife? Is it for cleaning fish, or whittling wood, etc.? If it has a purpose, maybe you could keep it locked up when it's not time to do that thing. If there is no defined purpose for it, then you have to ask yourself why you gave it to him in the first place.

Thank you so much for all the thoughtful replies.
We now have an appointment for an ASD clinic pysc. My son has been very remorseful and has been able to express increadible insight into his rage, and that his head gets too full to think of anything other than striking out. That being said, the knife incident will be brought up with the psyc, and trying to find ways he can identify his rage building.
He has said to me several times that he doesn't know why I still love him, because he has been so bad, and he is feeling really sad about it.
So, we will see what the psyc can offer us in terms of working towards a solution. I will bring up many of the great suggestions from here as well.
Thank you all again for your compassion and constructive input.
In answer to the last question about the knife, it was a pocket knife that we got when we were overseas, that had his name printed on it, only reason really. I never thought he would use it in anger. He has not got it back, and Im not sure he will.
Take care,
Verticalmum.

Wow, he did very well -

this was in large part what I meant; if all you can think about is striking out, you aren't exactly in control of your actions.

Sounds like you are on the right track. Poor little guy, and poor Mom! I'm sorry you had to go through this at what is a stressful time anyway; and I remember how hard all of this was on both of us when we were dealing with it. We did get through it, and it sounds like your little guy is far ahead of the game in comparison to where my son was at his age.