noncompliance anyone?

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Are there any other kids out there that are noncompliant and insist upon arguing their point of view with staff?

Also, my child has been accused of blaming others for his mistakes, but I think it's more a theory of mind issue and poor perspective taking. He doesn't lie well at all and is usually very honest. He might embelish a bit, but usually doesn't lie.

Anyone?

I'm pretty complient most of the time but do have my belligerent moments and will argue intensly if I feel very strongly about the topic, or if I feel like I'm being attacked.

I don't really lie, I have lied to say I haven't would make me a lier, though I try to aviode doing so, especially now, as its against my moral standards. Never was good at it, my mom always knew if I tried, and I would feel terrible when I did. Most people see me as being very honest and trustworthy, someone recently even thought I was incapable of lying.

Perhaps your son hasn't seem whether he is at fault or others and would need to analyze the situation afterwards to figure out what caused the mistake and how to fix it. That's not so easy to do so directly after the incident or in the midst of a confrontation. In fact it is almost impossible.

People on the Autistic Spectrom are oftan stubborn when someone tries to push them outside their comfort zone or change their routine which is very important to them. This is certainly true for me.

Hopefully you find some of this helpful.

My boys are good with staff (because the staff at our school are brilliant!), but will have a good argument with adults if they don't agree.

Our psychologist explained this is because people with Asperger's view everyone as equal. They don't see hierarchies.

This is why kids with Asperger's are perfectionists - they think they should be able to perform to the same level as adults (because they don't realise adults have more experience).

Also, this is why they 'talk back' - because view everyone as equals.

This sounds like both my sons!

Helen

My son is extremely compliant. So much so that he has been accused of lieing and being manipulative by his teachers he will agree with them usually but become very withdrawn. I cant make his teachers see this tho.
I KNOW my child doesn't lie deliberatley.

My son is quite oppositional, but it's usually in response to transitions (leaving home in the morning for school, coming home, going from class to outside time) or being asked to move on from a preferred activity (video games being the big one). Or, when he knows he's in trouble (like when he hits his brother).

This typically involves getting completely off topic when I ask him to explain his actions, blaming other people for things he's done or lying about what happened (even when I flat out saw what happened), talking like a baby, not listening at all, not talking to me at all, wringing his hands and getting excessively silly.

The more I am able to identify *beforehand* what will set off oppositional behavior, the more I can cut it off at the pass. For example, I know that getting him off his video games and into his homework (or cleaning up toys, or whatever) is really tough. So now instead of launching right into insisting that he stop and do the cleanup, I tell him 15 minutes before the "deadline" that he will need to be ready to stop. Then, reminders at 10 and 5 minutes. If he's still not listening by the time time is up, I remind him he can make a good choice (move on) and be able to play games again later, or make a bad choice and not be able to.

Honestly the hardest part is knowing for sure what's going to set him off. Some of them are obvious, but sometimes I don't see it coming and react stupidly I'm still learning.

Why shouldn't they be allowed to argue their point of view?
(Not attacking, this is something that I genuinely don't understand.)

With our 17 yr old girl aspie we can have 'dicussions', as we remind her to try to stay calm and keep her voice at a regular tone. She really did not understand not to yell and get sarcastic and angry. Now she is learning to try to say in a calm voice, 'what do you mean?'. Though if she dosent agree, or just doesnt get it, she will let us know loudly as she stomps off to her room.
When it comes to things like getting her to do her chores, homework, even hygene, she does get agitated to the point of meltdown. I made a schedule of weekly chores, and prompt her to do them and her homework to which she always reacts with an outburst. If we try to explain she just gets louder and will eventually meltdown (yelling, cussing, throwing things, hitting herself and others).
So if she doesnt cooperate after the first prompting, we wait for her to calm down, then try again. Sometimes nothing gets accomplished that day, even if we take away her phone, computer, etc.
You are so right about not understanding who to blame. That is a never ending issue with us. H-R is very honest, and easily manipulated by other kids.

Huh, that's interesting. I used to do this all the time at school. I think what I eventually figured out was that if you wanted to disagree with a point, often it was more productive to wait 'til the end of the class, and then ask as the other pupils were leaving, but I'm guessing that all depends on how old your child is, and also on the teachers. For most of my time at school, I was pretty lucky with the teachers I had, and they'd indulge my questions and did, for that matter, treat me as an equal when I asked about things. The deal was, "don't disrupt the class and I'll explain it later." Do you think that strategy might work? Could the child in question be persuaded to wait 'til later to bring up his objections?

My son is pretty much what Saggara describes. and he doesn't recognize hierarchies.

This makes sense. My ds, from a very young age, preferred adults. I believe this is true because the adults have the knowledge and can answer his questions. He seems to be drawn to people that have knowledge to share. I think he would love a scientist/professor for a parent. I'm none of these. Sometimes, I feel dim-witted and wish my IQ was about 30 points higher, super genius level, so I could teach him more and have the energy and mental stamina to do so. Most times, after teaching hs students how to write and read literature all day, I'm exhausted and just want to zone out. If I am AS (never been dx'd but my scores are always around 150), I'm the kind that likes to zone out completely--always loved the song "In my own little corner in my own little world"--Cinderella.

My point being--I was extremely shy, an introvert and preferred hiding to seeking out adults. I was the opposite of my pushy son. Yet, if there was something important to be said, I wouldn't hesitate to say it as I got older. My heart would race, and I would become extremely anxious--but I had to speak. Got me into trouble sometimes. Mute is good sometimes. You take in so much where you're the quiet observer.

No heirarchy--this could be problematic. Teachers, especially, are typically controlling and don't want their lessons interrupted or side -tracked. I caught him arguing the merits and purpose of a mask he snuck into school. He insisted upon bringing this mask in despite the fact that third graders were not allowed to dress up. Interesting. The kids were awe-struck. How could he? Against the rules! We don't do this! He raised some eyebrows, got people thinking--you know. Why can't third graders dress up like the 1st and 2nd graders? Are they suddenly too old? Ridiculous. I never said this. He intuited it himself. The older he gets, the more verbose, the more vocabulary, the more everything. Watch out world!

I've got a pretty neat kid!

equinn

The inability to see heirarchies makes a lot of sense. I'd never ehard it put that way. I certainly didn't view my parents as being the "bosses" unless I wanted something from them and was manipulating them with my behavior to get what I wanted. LOL!

My daughter is the same way. She is very oppositional, very defiant. It's maddening and drives me nuts since her little brother and sister have picked up on her behavior as well. We have established stict rules and rewards relating to chores and such, but if DD doesn't want her computer time, etc- she couldn't care less about doing her chores.
She questions everything, talks back about everything, loves to point out when her father or I make an error in speech, whatever. She's very much a smart-a$$. I know it's genetic LOL! I've learned to let a lot slide- it's just not worth a battle most of the time- maintaining peace in the home is more important to me. To quote Bill Cosby, "Parents arent' interested in justice-they want peace and quiet." I can't agree more. LOL!

I think that's true. However, I think that it's a sign that Aspies are more intelligent than most people. Everyone SHOULD be equal, heiarchies only get in the way of things. Most of the time I complained to my SPED moderator, that they weren't helping me because they weren't. So does that mean because they are higher up, they're exempt from doing their job of meeting my needs?

Alot of the trouble, is that people who are in higher places behave very immaturely because they feel they're in a position where they can get away with it. So for example if someone says, to someone in SPED they're being bullied, they're told how much work the moderator has to do. Do you think this is at all an appropriate response to someone who is suffering and in need of intervention?

Adults might have more experience, but Aspies tend to act older than their years. Experience does not = intelligence. Most of the time Aspies do perform as well as Adults, heard of the gifted program? The problem is that Aspies who have a understanding as if they are older, expect to have the same rights as someone who does. To them, being talked down to if they're 10 is the same as someone treating them like a child at 20.

There needs to be an understanding that, Aspies tend to be wiser beyond their years, and clearly have much more of a sense of morals than most NTs do. Like taking treat others as you would want to be treated literally. Imagine not understanding why it's ok for some students to not be punished for obeying rules, yet you are punished for disobeying them? It's not an issue of equality, it's a clear sense that there is injustice.

That "inability" is part of the reason why my friend's dad became a CEO. He listens to everyone - he doesn't put a different value on their words just because they are younger, or a different sex, or have less experience.


For the mos part I don't lie, and I feel intensely guilty if I do. However, as a child I did lie to correct wrongs. Like if I got in trouble because my sister said I hit her, when I hadn't, then I might lie the next time I fell down and say she pushed me. Then she would hopefully get the punishment she deserved for lying to get me in trouble.

I never lie. I used to do it rarely on the rare occation when it felt convenient. But due to a renewed interest in my honourable and glorious Viking heritage I swore when I was around 13 that I would never lie again. I suppose I have done it once since then, but anyway...

I argue a lot. It's really the only thing I'm good at, but I suppose my parents' arguing every day about anything and everything have taught me to do so... When I'm at school, I just feel an overwhelming urge to get my points across. I tell myself it's because I have some good ideas and that people would benefit from hearing it, which is probably true, but the fact is I just don't seem to understand where the limit is. That's where the syndrome comes in, I think, because I can't tell when people are tired of listening to me.

I always like discussing things with my teachers, and I usually do so pretty well because I have had good teachers who actually cared about the subjects. It's just important to recognize that the teachers probably know more about their subject than I do.

every single day!

This is me!! ! Everyone thought I was being a horrible brat, and I was utterly and painfully perplexed as to why! I saw myself as equal, and was highly confused and insulted when others did not see it that way. To this day, I don't observe hierarchies. This is why I struggle with female relationships so much. Women tend to have pecking orders. Let one try and put me in my "place", and I will promptly (verbally) rip her a new one. I never understood that crap and I never will.

So your child is not alone, and really needs you to be an advocate and a "translator", so to speak for all of the social language that just isn't apparent. I think if it could have been explained to me, I would have fared much better in my earlier years, and I would probably be more accepting of the stupid NT pecking order crap and the more respectable hierarchies. One thing, having grown up with a good deal of elderly people nearby, I do have the utmost respect for them. But then, I was routinely taught this. And often, they deserved respect.

Which leads into another problem. Adults or not, sometimes they just don't act in a manner that is deserving of respect. For an Aspie, this is really really difficult to understand...that as a kid you need to show respect anyhow. And boy can that lead to problems.