When logic doesn't work

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What do you do when logic doesn't work? I have read over and over again on this site that the best way to handle your child is through logic. Explain the logic behind what you are trying to have them do, and speak to them like an adult.

For example: You cannot run across the street without looking. If a car is coming to fast and they cannot stop they can hit you. If they do you can get very hurt and end up in the hospital and it will be very painful.

What if you even illustrate this? I walk in front of a car and get hit and hurt. Your child is very upset that you are hurt and mad at your for walking in front of a car. You look at your child and say, this is what happens.

Then your child looks at you and says that he isn't going to look both ways, because he wants to cross the street when he wants to cross it and he doesn't care about the car or how you feel if he gets hit. He however cares deeply about whether you get hit, and you are supposed to follow the rule, but he doesn't have to because he wants to do what he wants to do?

Then the next time it happens, you punish your child because they walk across the street without looking because logic doesn't work, and all they do is feel victimized, and can't get past what you did to them?

Then what? I know that I have to use either logic, punishment or positive reward system. In the meantime, while you are messing around with this, your child gets hit because all logic flies out of the window because he can't get past what he wants to do.

Any insight would be appreciated....I need a different approach and I don't have one. Most of the time he is good, and one of these approaches works, but with certain things I just don't know what to do.

The issue du jour is running away from me where I can't see him. He says he wants to go where he wants, and will not make a deal to agree to go together, even when I say he can go where he wants as long as we are together, or I can see him. He has no separation anxiety whatsoever when he is the one doing the separating. If I am lost, he's mad, and worried and scared and my behavior is totally unacceptable. I can use a harness or something like that, but I want him to understand that this is not safe. How do I make him understand and accept it, and stop running away because it's dangerous?

How old is he?

7. I know he's young. Am I expecting too much from him? He's very smart.

I think the point that needs to be taught to children is that there are always consequences for everything you think, say, and do, and that some consequences are more severe than others, and it often takes maturity and experience to judge and predict the severity of the consequences. For the running into the road without looking example, the consequences can be the most severe, i.e., injury and death. A less severe example would be not brushing your teeth every day, in which the consequences would be cavities, more frequent visits to the dentist, and more painful dental procedures. So I think that as parents our job is to teach our kids how to use judgment in decision-making...a very difficult and lengthy process that can take years. And, this can be made more difficult with children who don't even appear to think before they do, the just do whatever without regard to consequences.

With my kids, health and safety concerns always come first. If I see a behavior that needs to be corrected, my first thought is "how severe the consequences of the undesirable behavior" and that guides my approach to behavior modification. For the running out into the street example, I would use every arrow in my quiver, including positive rewards for good behavior, punishment with explanation for bad behavior, reminders, cues, you name it.

So what do you do when logic doesn't work? In some situations I think it would be ok to abandon logic in favor of health and safety, for example running in the road.

For the running away example, if it were my kids I would clearly establish rules and boundaries, expectations for behavior, and consequences for both good and bad behavior. I would talk about all these things with the kids, explain the reasons why, and give them ample opportunity to ask questions and express themselves. Then I would let em go and watch and see what happens. I would follow-through on the consequences, both good and bad. I tend to be super-strict and stick to the plan. I have found that consistently sticking to the plan works over the long run. Eventually my kids learned the rules and expectations in our home and they are mostly super-well behaved at home. But it took a long time, and there was plenty of harranging, meltdowns, loss of priveleges, and bumps in the road along the way. Plus, they continue to test the rules and boundaries outside our home, that is in school. I consider it a good day when I don't get a call or an email from school.

Sorry for the long reply, but its a good question and worthy of some thought.

Oh, my, I can SOOOO relate.

What you have is a situation where maturity and logic are not on the same plane. I do think you have a few more logic angles to work, but there are also times where you just have to be mom and hope he understands when he has matured a bit. I hit my son hard with long time outs when he was 3 and running away, because I had a baby on the way and I was terrified, and I explained that every single time. Even if he doesn't care about getting hurt, I told him that I cared, that I loved him, and I would be lost if something happened.

Assuming your example is something you are currently grappling with:

Have you tried the layer of logic where you limit his ability to run away, saying simply, "you can't have freedom if you don't follow the rules I've set. It is my job to keep you safe, and if you cannot care enough to keep yourself safe, then I have to keep you out of situations where you might hurt yourself." There could be a rule that he must hold your hand at all times when outside the house, for example. It may sound extreme, but he'll get the point.

I do suspect, btw, that it is a little more complicated than wanting to go where he wants when he wants. I think he has an impulse that he doesn't feel he can control and, thus, he has chosen to believe it isn't important. Maturity and logic still have to come together on it, to make him able to follow the rule.

Don't give up on the logic, however, even while you are busy being what he'll see as a mean mom (sorry, it just "is" sometimes). Eventually he'll integrate it. Hopefully (my son "gets" the safety thing now, but I'm thinking he'll never, ever actually care about sanitation <sigh>).

I know even as a type this that you might not want to take it to the extream I have, but this is whats has worked for me. I happen to follow the new fairly closly CNN, HLN or goggle news is almost alway up or on in my home. When a child goes missing,is hurt or killed I quitly go to Jake and tell him this is why mommy and daddy need to know were you are all the time. We watch a little bit of the story and I tell him how importan he is to our family and the world. I give him big hug and try my best not to scare him but after a few weeks it's seems o be sinking in when nothing else has. If you do end up using a haress make sure when your putting it on him you tell him why he's got to wear it and what he can do not to have to if he doesn't like it. We're having to use on on the school bus with jake and this had helped his behavior on the bus.

(Have you tried the layer of logic where you limit his ability to run away, saying simply, "you can't have freedom if you don't follow the rules I've set. It is my job to keep you safe, and if you cannot care enough to keep yourself safe, then I have to keep you out of situations where you might hurt yourself." There could be a rule that he must hold your hand at all times when outside the house, for example. It may sound extreme, but he'll get the point. )

I don't know if he would understand this. "Freedom" I think is not specific enough, it has to be situational at this point and I have to work on a specific behavior. "freedom to walk ahead" may work, but after all of these years I don't even want to give him that. I have been talking incessently about safety for the last few months. He wants race go karts very badly, and I told him that if you don't follow the rules they can be dangerous and you can get very hurt, and if he can't listen to me so I can keep him safe, he's not driving. I was hoping that this would motivate him to listen more, especially where safety is a factor, but he just keeps asking to drive the karts. I know he gets it. He just can't see past what he wants. I guess that's the maturity piece.

I do suspect, btw, that it is a little more complicated than wanting to go where he wants when he wants. I think he has an impulse that he doesn't feel he can control and, thus, he has chosen to believe it isn't important. Maturity and logic still have to come together on it, to make him able to follow the rule.

I think this is true. He has told me he has impulse control problems, he call it his "life" and he says it controls him. This makes sense, especially "choosing" to believe it isn't important. I can see him making that choice, consciously.

Don't give up on the logic, however, even while you are busy being what he'll see as a mean mom (sorry, it just "is" sometimes). Eventually he'll integrate it. Hopefully (my son "gets" the safety thing now, but I'm thinking he'll never, ever actually care about sanitation <sigh>).[/quote]

Sometimes I just don't understand why he doesn't get it. One day he was driving his power wheel and totally crossed the street in front of a car. When they stopped he almost drove into the side of it as though it wasn't there, because he was in the middle of his "race". He got the car taken away and came into the house immediately. An hour later he was in the driveway with his dad and they came into the house and my husband told me he just walked right out in front of a car, right in front of him. He JUST lost his car for that. He scares the crap out of me.

Last edited by MommyJones on 05 Oct 2009, 12:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

This is kind of what I did this weekend. I got "lost" in the corn maze. He is so mad at me because he was scared and worried. I told him that is what I feel when he gets lost and he basicly said he didn't care. I may get another harness and just keep at it. It just blows my mind how many "years" something takes, when other things he gets right off the bat. Tell him kindly that's a bad word? you will NEVER hear it again, nor will you be able to say that word either.

I would do anything to get inside his head, just for one day. If I had one wish...

This is not my area of expertise but I have looked into it "loosely" in the past. You have to be aware that the development of logic and systems is not an all at once thing. Sure, humans are the 'rational animal' but it doesn't just go "poof" and all of a sudden you know everything. I would not go so far as to say you are expecting too much but there is a definate point when a child realises that actions lead to consequences... IN THE FUTURE. Or that long range goals matter. Or that something that they know might not necassarily mean that someone ELSE knows. Especially if they are autistic. Think Theory of mind. That is pretty much what it means.

So talk to your pediatrician or whatever support you do have as regards to your expectations or where in development your chidl ACTUALLY is.

Developmentally he is all over the place. I think that is what I have such a hard time wrapping my head around.

You might want to take a new tacit with him if you want your freedom you must do XYZ if you do not you will not get do the things other kids your age do. This motives jake fairly well at times.

Unforunately that is half the problem with an autistic child. I didn't read till I was 6. By 9 I was reading Lockeian essays in 19th century old english and trying to convince my parents to join the crusade to abolish slavery!

My hopes and wishes go out to those souls trying to raise any child. Trying to wrap him in cotton wool while trying to develop wings so that they might fly is an enviable task for any human being. I was just trying to point out that not EVERYTHING will happen at once at that maybe in that poing you are expecting too much too soon. But continue at it and he might develop that sense that much sooner.

Who better to ask about the autistic mind than an autistic? Thank you for your post. I love salt

Thank you everyone for your posts! Each one of you gave me something to think about and I appreciate that! (I love this website)

I think what I'm going to do is get another harness and backstep some. I also have access to PECS, so I'm going to do a picture schedule to show the behavior, and the consequence so he can see it as well as hear it, and be strict about it. THEN, I will be patient

At DW_a_mom's suggestion, I will continue to explain the safety/logic aspect of it, and other things, even though he doesn't care, and give him time to internalize it. I guess I just needed to hear someone say that it does pay off eventually.

You all are great! Thanks again!

Note to the OP: it's not that your son doesn't care, it's that the notion of him getting hit by a car and dying seems to abstract and outlandish, that he can't even conceive it happening to him, and probably dismisses it as a scare tactic of yours. I got to this conclusion by reading something in a parenting magazine. A father had a problem with his daughter (age 4) opening the car door while in motion. He tried to tell her that she can fall out of the car, but she didn't respond to the warning, and continued opening the door (the article didn't specify, but I'm guessing she knew how to unlock it). Lectures and punishments ensued, with little result. But then the father had another idea: he told his daughter that her favorite toy can fall out of a moving car if a door is open. She was so frightened by the statement, that she never opened the door again, even if the lock wasn't engaged.

The writer of the article explained in a way similar to mine: when teaching your kids about safety, explain it in a way your kids can actually conceive. In your case, your son probably can't imagine himself getting hit by a car, so he doesn't know what you truly mean by your warnings. I'm fully opposed to using scare tactics, but in your case, it's for a respectable reason. Illustrate your point by making an example of most kids' (especially aspie kids') prized possessions: your son's toys. Tell him that if he plays runs into the street, he might drop the toy and get it run over by a moving car. (I'm sure he's seen flattened empty bottles on the road, so he'll have a point of reference.) Then again, your son might respond to your warning by not carrying onto the street, but my advice isn't perfect.

Aspie here.
I was very logical by young and very very intelligent (first time I did IQ test was at 7 y-old and scored 125). And my mum had the same problem as you. Basically she thinked that because I was able to read physics book, and actually go to school for "sport" i was "really" an adult. Well intelligence/logic and wisdom are 2 different things. I crushed on cars 4 times in my life (without any real problem) and I did things that If I see my daughter do that I'll go nuts.

A things that worked to me was the following (obviosly not instantly):

- I must care of you by law, If you don't look at the road before going on, I must infer that you are unable to care so from now I'll take your hands like mums do with young children.

It was a so much a chess-mate for me that I simply started to watch for cars (after a while that I have understood that my parents said that for true).

As for lurking alone, my mother let me do it when I was 7 so I don't know.