Threatened with a knife

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Hi there,
I am a sole mum to a 10 yr old Asperger boy. I am also Aspergers.
Last week we were playing a game throwing soft balls at each other playfully. It got out of hand and I didn't recognise that he was getting angry till it was too late.
He went into his room and got out his pocket knife and had a horrific look on his face and ran at me.
Afterwards he was sorry and remorseful. I am in a state of disbelief and totally scared .
I don't know what to do, I am feeling totally lost and terrified it may happen again.
I contacted his peadiatrition and he is back on a half dose of medication.
Any suggestions or people who have gone through similar would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Verticalmum.

My son does things like this on occasion, and I've found it is very important to distinguish between a threat and an action. Threatening to harm someone (or threats of suicide) in a child on the spectrum can be indicative of their inability to communicate - both their anxiety about being misunderstood, and their tendency to use the most extreme expression rather than modulating it to the degree of threat.

My son also struggles with the line between fun banter, fun horseplay and actual harm; he is likely to be set off during horseplay if he gets hurt. I'm not saying there is no risk of harm or no possibility this won't escalate, but I'm saying that I've seen this type of very frightening behavior and it has never crossed that line (my son came at me with safety scissors once, but probably would have used a knife if he had access to one.)

I think managing the anxiety is a good thing. What other supports does your son have? Has he been tested for communication issues, like a pragmatic speech deficit (one can have this and be able to use a college-level vocabulary, like my son.) Can he identify emotions acccurately to the degree where they apply? Can he tell the difference between a life-threatening hurt and a small injury? There are therapies for all of these things that are part of a long-term solution for this issue - and if for some reason you don't have access to therapy (schools in the US offer these therapies,) you can research doing some of it yourself.

In the meantime: after an incident like this, my son was not allowed access to anything he might use to hurt himself or us (like penknives) until he earned the right to do so. We explained this to him when he was calm: that until he could be safe and understand how to be safe, he couldn't have access to things like knives without immediate supervision. (We actually also did this with violent media, in part becase my son "scripted" off it. YMMV) We also taught him to identify the antecedents to a violent outburst (for instance, he tends to tense his jaw and shoulders before he has one. Sometimes physical symptoms are easier for a child on the spectrum to identify.)

There's a long section in the parenting index about violent and suicidal behavior and ideation - I'd read through both sets of threads, because what you're experiencing is similar, if not exactly the same.

Hang in there. This is probably OK, and if it isn't, there are lots of tools and strategies to try that will help.

I am sorry you are going through this and agree with what Momsparky said. I will just add that, when he is calm, I think it is important to communicate to him that it is your responsibility to support him, you can only do that with his help and this incident isn't a terrible thing, it is an opportunity for you and him to practice how he can communicate with you when he is upset so that you can help. And then the stuff Momsparky said about helping him and if he can identify antecedents, great. If not there's no need to pressure him with what he cannot yet do, because you can have him practice role playing (maybe with some humor, and maybe you going first) how to ask for help because of feeling upset.

In addition to the insightful posts before this one, I can only add one thought: we told our daughter that using a weapon is crossing a line. It's a concept we've been working on for years, that some things simply are not to be done, ever. It fits her schema of the world and her concrete thinking. "Use a knife, go to jail", that sort of thing...

In addition to the insightful posts before this one, I can only add one thought: we told our daughter that using a weapon is crossing a line. It's a concept we've been working on for years, that some things simply are not to be done, ever. It fits her schema of the world and her concrete thinking. "Use a knife, go to jail", that sort of thing...

I'd go zero tolerance on this. First I would take away his pocket knife for a very long time and punish him however you punish him for this. You have every right to be angry about this and to let him know how angry you are because that is dangerous for you and for him. He does something like that to the wrong person and he will end up in juvie.

I'd put my foot down hard on this and make sure he knows why hes being punished and why he can't do this.

Thank you everyone for your responses, I really appreciate the suggestions and feedback.
The knives are still packed away, including his pocket knife.
I told him I had talked to the police about it, and he was upset, but I said I had no option, he had crossed the line, and I feared for my safety.
He has improved since going back on his medication, and we see his peadiatrition on Wednesday.
He also quite insightfully said that he thinks he needs anger management classes.
So we will look into that, and we have a new psyc we are going to see through the suggestion of a good friend who uses the psyc.
I am still having difficulty getting back to being happy and loving with him, I know it sounds terrible, but things changed when he came at me with that knife. I don't hate him, I'm just really indifferent if that makes any sense.
Has anyone else experienced this?
I do still love him, but am having trouble getting close to him again.

You always love your kids but you don't always like them. That happens. It will go back to how it was before soon. I've been in the situation where i didn't like one of mine for a bit. They have felt the same way about me, their dad and each other. It's just part of family life. Not the knives, but the loving but not liking after somebody does something to you like that.

I'd be careful talking to the cops though. You don't want them to brand him dangerous and give him more trouble later in life if he gets in trouble. It's best to keep the cops out of situations like that unless absolutely needed. It's more trouble than it's worth and they aren't going to come over and mediate they are going to come over and take somebody to jail usually.

It will straighten out, I promise you. As for anger management, be careful about that. Maybe get him regular one on one therapy where he talks to the doctor about his anger issues, but the usual type of anger management stuff isn't very helpful. Everybody I know who has had to take those classes ended up worse for it. I've read the stuff they teach. It's like second grade in there for grown people, so no telling what it would be like for kids. They give you scenarios and talk about identifying when things are escelating and what appropriate responses are and then give you a bunch of crap fantasy ideas to work things out when things do escalate which won't work in the real world. One on one therapy would go much farther toward helping him than anger management per se would.

Good luck. And make sure he gets punishment for the knife thing. He does that at school and I guarantee you there will be some juvie time involved and that won't be pleasant for anyone.

Thanks oliveoilmom,
I had to call the police, I am a sole parent, recovering from cancer, so still not really strong physically.
And he has nothing to do with his father.
Yes, I get your point about anger management classes, I think he needs more one on one psychology, but it was nice to hear that he had acknowledged he has an anger problem.
I guess I will just have to wait till the feeling comes back, there is no way I don't love him, it's a bit of disassociation I think.
He is doing distance education, but what if one of his friends come over and he flips his cog again, the kid won't want to come over again, and he doesn't have many to loose......
Thanks again for your suggestions and help.

You sound frightened (numb). Would you talk to a counselor? Because I don't think it's good for either of you for you to have to feel this way. This may be harder to get over this if you've had a lot of bad experiences or if he gets angry often and extremely.

I'd focus on consequences, rather than punishment. The consequences include not having access to knives. And whatever else you decide might be reasonable to help him and you be and feel safe.

If you don't want to push that he scared you because he is just 10, you might push the fact that by picking up a knife or other weapon you scared him for HIM, because obviously he could have been injured himself or an adult coming to get it away might have injured him. Sometimes kids feel better if we emphasize our protective role rather than our vulnerability. You have every reason to worry that children who pick up weapons in the throws of strong emotion may get hurt and I just think that being worried about that is so totally rational....worst he can say is you're overprotective! And you know better.

I think it is important he learn that actions have consequences. And, if he doesn't already know this, that taking knives to people frightens them. Also, forgive me bringing up, and I am not saying this applies, but if he has seen any violence, well, sometimes kids play out what they saw and do not understand. And having ASD is no protection against negative reactions to traumatic events so if there's anything of that nature, he may need some help (from everyone) understanding his experiences and placing in perspective. And again, I am not saying anything like this happened, just, if it did, he needs to understand it was wrong and so is what he does taking up a weapon against someone he loves.

I am so sorry you are going through this! Please keep updating us if it is helping you.

This is disturbing, because his getting the knife shows that harmful violence is in his mind, something that he may turn to in angry moments in future. Kids all get angry and have outbursts, but usually don't go get a weapon, even if they hit with their hands. The idea usually doesn't occur in the moment. If he only hit with his hands, I wouldn't think it particularly disturbing, but the knife thing makes it much worse. I think counseling is a good idea for anger management and also to stop this get a weapon thing that has already formed in his mind.

You are far from alone. I stumbled on this blog post (I love this blog; she has a great post about disclosure) a while back, and realized it is true: http://momnos.blogspot.com/2011/02/asd-and-ptsd.html

It may help to think of your son as a cornered small animal. Small animals that are cornered and fearful put on a big display, but don't intend harm - they are just trying to get you to back off. It is frightening. It is appropriate to respond as though you might have been harmed, because your son needs to understand what he is communicating.

All that said, your son needs you. He is helpless, like a little cornered mouse. He can't help it if his body is getting bigger and stronger. I am guessing that like any child, you being sick has frightened him and added to his stress. If you tell him that the two of you are going to work together, as a team, to help him express anger and fear appropriately you both may feel less frightened and may be able to bond again. Work with him to come up with a plan to manage when he is feeling scared or angry (he probably started out scared, but didn't realize that.)

It may also be helpful to get the book "A Five Is Against The Law." Typically, I recommend this book to kids who are becoming sexually aware, but it's also a good idea for kids who have other behavioral issues and who need to know things step by step.

Hang in there. It is very hard, but you can get through this.

Mine, too. No one can roughhouse with him anymore (not even his father) because of this.

There are certain things that DS will never own while he lives with me - a knife, a gun, a bow, some kinds of power tool, etc. Mind you, most of the time he's a very nice kid. But when he gets angry, he's impulsive. Also, he tends to think in extremes, and sometimes greatly overreacts to situations.

I second this. Cops are trained to shoot people who have weapons. They aren't trained to understand or care for children with autism. I would never invite them into my son's life.

I would not jump to conclusions either way, but he needs to know it is not ok.

I also think he needs some pre-emptive time out system. This is will involve him noticing the signs and taking a appropriate action on his own accord. Something consistent like going to lie down in his room. In away this relates to anger management.

I don't think you should go with the "cornered mouse" theory just yet, it is too presumptive. For one he went an got a knife, which is premeditated. Even if he did felt that way, it doesn't change that his reaction was not acceptable or proportional.

Even that feeling need to be changed. Reinforcing it doesn't break the behavioral pattern. Anyone who has had anxiety disorder or any neurotic should know that.

I do hand to knife livenss training and it not easy, and you can't rely any assumptions about how people might think or behave. In fact that is the only advice that is appropriate to give on that.

Yes, this is what I meant - but keep in mind that it will take time and help for him to notice the signs.



My son did lots of similar things that seemed premeditated, but he was in no more control of himself than if he had simply swung at me. His flight/fight reflex was just different, and that is how it expressed itself. This is not to say the reaction is acceptable or proportional, it's just that it is an effect of a developmental delay combined with elevated reasoning and planning skills.

Obviously, every child is different - but until we started thinking about the problem in terms of my son's fear response, and got rid of the idea that it was premeditated or deliberate action, that we had success in changing his behavior.