Aspartners: Questions

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CubeDemon,

You are a nice and compassionate person, and that is evidenced by your post. If anyone can't see that, then that is their gross error.

Edited to add: I am leaving the rest unsaid, for the moment, other that to reiterate that I am still against bigotry, whether it be Maxine Ashton's or anyone elses. I see no merit in analyzing it, personally.

"I don't want to speak to you, so I thought I'd come and speak to you. At length. And then tell you not to respond, because as I said I don't want to talk to you. I'm such a nice person, why can't you see that? Now go away."

League_Girl, The simile that you made is spot on. Our neurology's are so different we might as well be two people on different planets. Everything they say and everything we say is going to be filtered through the other's brain wiring. I do believe they're in a lot of emotional pain. We're still all have evolved from the same crop and have a common ancestor. There are commonalities like similar emotional reactions to not being understood. From our perspective, they're hateful. From their perspective, we're hateful. We have at least some common perceptions of the world. Somewhere along the line it branches out.

Here is the thing though. I want a brighter future for our descendants. They have a perspective that other NTs can never truthfully have and they've had a relationship with an aspie and had to interact with him 24/7. They have a lot of data they can give the professionals and these professionals can develop better and more effective treatments for us. In addition, I have never had the benefit of a diagnosis when I was a child. My life would've been different and maybe I would've understood myself and others a lot more and I could've related with others easier.

I could've made more effective decisions in my life. I made my decisions on what I thought I knew. Before getting into any relationship first I would've made sure I would have developed myself first.

One of the good things I did get from them is this. This is a second hand account of Dr. Asperger's work. Emile Mulder confirms this.

http://www.paulcooijmans.com/asperger/a ... rized.html

I do have a question though. Why can't this be relative and the converse be true meaning that NTs are disturbed in their processing of the information through the abstract and the intellect? This is relative to those who are making the assessment which was Dr. Asperger who more than likely was NT.

I believe Einstein had a question. "Did the chicken cross the road or did the road cross the chicken?" Information is processed and relative to all of our brain wirings. Can reports truthfully be totally objective and free from all biases?

Thanks So are you. You have been a major help to me. You and others are a Godsend.



The problem as I see it is what befalls those at aspartners. We as aspies can have our own prejudices and biases because we are human as well. No human being is perfect and completely infallible. I would not be able to read her stuff and work without becoming angry myself. There would have to be people in her profession who would have to evaluate it from a more objective lens. This is called peer reviewing. I believe Emile Mulder would be more qualified than any of us to objectively read it without bias because he is in her profession. Who knows, she may have made a couple of sound arguments. If it could benefit all of us as a whole meaning society why wouldn't we do that?

I am an INTP personality type: http://www.mypersonality.info/personality-types/intp/

I don't know how accurate this test is for those on the spectrum but if it is I have noticed for the post part most aspies are either NJs or SJs. Even though I am an aspie, I do approach things differently because of my personality than other aspies. This is why I don't see eye to eye with the majority of aspies on this. So far, a lot of aspies seem to not like her work. Has it been objectively analyzed or are we as aspies putting our own biases towards it?

Based upon my personality type do you at least understand why I think the way I do?

I have never had a lot of luck at getting consistent results on the Briggs-Meyer type tests. I think I am in the mid-range on some of the parameters, and so my daily mood has too much of an influence as well as sometimes I think I answer the questions aspirationally, although not intentionally.

Some of the aspects on the perceiving end are executive function issues, so I am actually mildly surprised more aspies don't end up more skewed towards "P" than they really are. I think I usually end up as a "J" myself, despite tha,t so I guess the rigidity outweighs those issues for me. So, yeah there probably should be a more aspie aligned test that accounts for those things.

Anyway, my issue is not that I think aspies are great all the time, or that there is no truth to the fact that we are hard to live with, sometimes. I expect that our behaviors pool in a different way than they do for the bulk of NTs. I think though that you have the same issues that people have in comparing racial populations for certain traits in that the field attracts bigoted people, and that regardless of where the center of the bell curves are, you have to look at individuals.

My problem with people like Ashton Maxine is that they have an agenda, and as you say there needs to be peer review. Sometimes when there is so much bias, it is better to have a more objective person start all over. That is how I feel about it. It is too easy to manipulate data. If someone wants to test her hypotheses, that is one thing, but I think all new data should be used, and aside from crediting her for the original hypotheses when warranted, I would not think the rest of her "work" is needed.

As far as the people on that site go, I might have more empathy for them if they were not bigots. Without parsing the particular response we got on here (as you requested I not do) My opinion has not changed on this, not because I am a "J" (probably) but b/c nothing has changed on their thread there in addition to the issues I have with the post they made here, which I will not go into, per your request. It is not fair to expect empathy when none is given in return. Reciprocity, right?

I don't have empathy for Nazis, or racists, either, no matter what the hard luck story behind their lives might be. Feeling x" emotion (even justifiably) does not make bad behavior OK. I tell my son this, often. If I could view these wrongs in a vacuum, than maybe I would feel differently, but I can't view life that way. (Maybe that does make me a "J"?) I am not a turn- the-other-cheek kind of person. I have been taught that is the way to be victimized time and time again, and I believe that to be true.

I could see that a Perceiver" would not view it in that way.

Edited to add:

Have you ever seen American History X? I did feel empathy for Edward Norton's character b/c that character was a terrible Neo-Nazi, but in the story the character experienced growth and change and he no longer was by the end. (As opposed to people who pretend they have changed, to get empathy or more lenient treatment, but really have not--which is a separate issue.)

This test may not work that well with aspies.



Definitely agree



I get what you're saying.



Actually, I agree with this. I never thought of it in the way you thought of it. What do you mean by she has an agenda? Doesn't everyone have an agenda? Mine is to get to the objective truth, eliminate as much bias and get those who need help the help they need. I want to help create a better world, a world that uses more critical thinking instead of positive thinking. I want our descendants to have more successful lives and people in general to have better lives.

I don't understand because when you say she had an agenda to me that is a tautological statement because everyone has an agenda.



I understand what you're saying. There was a story by Dr. Seuss that I saw on a video as a child. It was about two fictional characters walking towards each other from two opposite ends of the earth. One from the left and the other from the right. They both eventually met and neither could get by each other because the other would not move. Both were rigid, stubborn and stuck in place.

If one of them moved aside both could've walked to where they were going. What happened was they stayed in the exact spot for years and years until they both died. Years, decades and centuries passed. Expressways were built but their skeletons remained in the same exact spot. There are concepts and points and that is sometimes one may have to make first move. Sometimes one may have to give up a certain point to achieve a greater end. There are times one must do the right thing even if he receives no reward.

It is hard for me as well to even accept what I am going to say on this but even if they return no empathy to us that still does not mean we shouldn't be the better people meaning we should not return empathy to them. Let's look at the civil rights movement including MLKJr. African Americans were hung, spitted upon, not allowed to vote, segregation existed, they were brought here during the time of colonization and slavery. Look at MLKJr. and his "I have a Dream Speech." Why can't the concept extend to neurology as well? Someone has to make the first step towards that even if the other side adamantly refuses.



I hate what they did as I do come from a Jewish background. I hate what these women do and I hate what they have said especially qplan. Qplan is a eugenist. The Nuremberg Trials were the correct thing to do with the Nazis and I am glad the victims got justice.



No, it is not ok. Your son definitely needs to know this.



Therein lies the problem as I see it. It is the attitude of I got to get you before you get me. It is the attitude of some of those in the African American community of "I've got to get minez." Everyone tries to get one over each other. It is the idea of competition. You brought up the idea of Zero-Sum game. The attitude of eye for an eye is a zero sum game in which everyone loses. This is why I believe our nation is becoming unglued. Our nations values and beliefs tends towards this "eye for an eye" competition mindset. In the end, I believe we all will lose. I am extreme on the P end and I have been told by some people that I can come across as wishy-washy and I am an overthinker. Therein lies the problem, things are not as simple as first perceived.



You're right. Even though we use logic and we're both aspies our personalities lend themselves to different directions you do help to keep me grounded. You provide a different framework that I have major problems coming from but it has valuable insight which has helped me considerably.



I have not seen it. I will definitely have to do so at some point.

By the way, my wife is J type so she is excellent at keeping me grounded and I am good at showing her different possibilities.

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 05 Feb 2014, 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

Cubedemon, you have a good point as to everyone having an agenda. This is true. So, to clarify, I mean that Maxine Ashton and others like h,r have a specific and in this case a bigoted agenda. She does not seek truth as you do, she seeks data that skews a particular way and tailors her research to achieve certain pre-determined conclusions. Plenty of people have skewed perspectives, but bigotry has got to be one of the worst. It is worse than cheating for personal gain or money, even, in my opinion, because the consequences for other people are so horrendous.

As to when to yield right of way, and when to fight? I am not sure that I can summarize my opinions in a system of logic. Some of it has to do the pragmatics: How successful am I likely to be? What are the costs? Some of it is the morality of it. How morally loathsome do I find something? What are my moral obligations? There are emotional issues as well, when one feels baited, for example or treated unfairly and those factor into it as well. It is hard for me to describe it in a rule-based way.

I want to help create a better world as well.

http://blog.californiapsychics.com/blog ... nship.html
http://www.yourtango.com/experts/mrs-gr ... mpromising


Even though these concepts are written for romantic relationships I think they can apply to other types of relationships like employer-employee. If one has to be dishonest to be in any relationship, romantic or non-romantic, does he have to be dishonest and give up his very identity? Does one have to pretend to be something he is not?

http://forums.delphiforums.com/aspiediv ... ?msg=700.1

Let's say n is the ending number. Post 3 out of n said this woman's husband got a book on how to read body language. She seems to be implying that he is putting on a front by learning and using body language. Is he being dishonest with himself and others and giving up his very identity? Is he pretending to be something he is not? Therein lies the problem, if one does not do this how does one make it in society at all? It seems like a double bind and it is "damned if one does; damned if one does not."

I think it does matter what type of a relationship it is. You should be able to share more of your identity/individuality with people the closer that they are to you. I tell my spouse pretty much everything,. If I were employed outside the home, I would share very little of myself with employers and colleagues. Friends and family vary as to where on the continuum of trust I place them.

At work, I always had to be someone else. Not an entirely different person, but a different, more outgoing version. At work, I was not being paid to be my "true" self. I was employed to do a job. So, sometimes I had to fake comfort in doing things I was not confident in. That is normal.

With a spouse, that kind of pretense is dishonest because part of being in a relationship is in fact sharing yourself. I don't always say everything I am thinking, nor does he. That is not being fake; that is being tactful and restrained.

Here is an example that trips people up.

Wife: How do I look in this dress?
Husband: You look terrible! That purple dress makes you look like a big grape!

That is not a good answer. Sometimes the wife wants validation that she looks good, and she is fishing for a compliment. This is a technique many women in our culture are socialized to do. I do not generally do this, as I was not very effectively socialized, but it is very common, in my observations.

Even if she wants an honest answer, she does not want to be told she looks "terrible." If one has a wife that wants an honest answer, (this requires care to ascertain this) one can say something like, " I like the red one, better." or something framed more positively.

That is not equivalent to pretending to be someone completely different than who you are. If one is a homebody, one should not pretend to like to be out and about, socializing all the time, to a prospective romantic partner. If one is a sedentary type person, one should not pretend to love to go skydiving, just to impress someone. That is dishonest. Why would anyone even want to be with someone who does not love the real you?

You can refrain from burping at the table,even if you normally do this when by yourself. That is called being polite, not dishonest. Using extra good manners is not dishonest, unless it is a complete distortion and normally you are a complete pig. LOL Pretending to have a completely different personality, or interests is dishonest.

Sometimes interests change over time, tolerances for things change, that is not dishonest, either. Human beings are not static creatures.




As far as the post you are referencing is concerned, remember the source. They have a particular perspective over there and so everything they see is viewed from that perspective. Because they view aspies as being fundamentally dishonest, this warps their thinking. Learning to interpret body language is no more dishonest than an American in China wanting to learn Cantonese to understand what those around him are saying. It sounds to me, like her ex is trying to adapt to the world around him. He is trying to communicate with the people around him. This is not dishonest.

When one learns a foreign language with the intent to visit abroad, one also (if smart) learns basic gestures. Our gesture in the U.S for "OK" means something vulgar in, I think France. Learning this keeps one from non-verbally saying a thing that was not intended. This makes communication more effective, so you can say what you mean. How is this dishonest?

Through their prism anything aspies do to improve themselves that does not explicitly involve empathy for THEM, is looked at as honing manipulation skills. In the poster's view her ex was manipulative,so therefore any communication skills he acquires will be used for that purpose. Her assumption was not stated directly in that particular post, I don't think, but if you look at the body of her posts, that is what I conclude.

Last edited by ASDMommyASDKid on 05 Feb 2014, 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't think learning body language is being dishonest, it's called learning. Is a ret*d person being dishonest it if they learn to write their phone number or to hang up a coat or learn some self help skills? Is an autistic person being dishonest if they learn some facial expressions and what they mean? Is a NT kid being dishonest if they learn table manners and politeness as well? I see none of this as different or even faking it and I do not see it as being dishonest. I do not see this as pretending either. Is an abuser pretending and being dishonest if they are trying hard to control their temper and not do verbal abuse and hit and if they are in therapy because they don't know how to do it themselves?

Augh I read the rest of the thread and they say you abused them. All you did was ask them a question and they were rude to you and then you were hostile back. I also found out BTSN was Dana and she sounded more civil here than on there. Of all the years we have spoken here and in PM, I have not seen any meanness in you nor have you ever treated me bad so I don't know what those people are seeing. Also one of them read this thread and said it made her want to vomit, I wonder if there was anything I said that made her want to vomit.

I suspect there is a lot of misunderstandings that goes on between us and them and they are hurting from it. I don't see lot of meanness here so I don't know what they see. I think they may have their own idea of what empathy is and all.

I took a look at that forum just out of morbid curiosity, and all I can say is that most of the posts on there seem to come from hateful, ableist, close-minded, ignorant, f*****g scumbags who probably don't even believe that aspies should be treated as human beings. The very fact that they don't want aspies engaging in their discussions alone speaks mountains about how intolerant they are. I'm all for free speech, but it's supposed to go BOTH WAYS. If NTs are allowed to say rude things about us, we should at least have the freedom to call them out on their BS.

And yes, I understand that anyone can be an abusive partner, aspie or not, but the way they conflate aspies with abusive as*holes infuriates me. I will honestly admit though, after reading a bunch of the posts on that forum, I am now even less interested in finding a relationship, for fear that I end up in a situation where I end up becoming an abusive as*hole, or at least become regarded as one despite my best efforts.

My advice, before you get into a relationship if you choose to get into one is a. make sure you are able to get and keep a job b. make sure she knows that you do have AS from the jump. Make sure you work on you first.

Nah, I wouldn't tell them everything about myself. Here is the thing. I would tell them that I have AS and this is why my body language comes across a certain way including my monotone voice and eye contact problems. I do have problems with taking things literally and there are times I do not properly read other people's body language correctly but this will not stop me from doing the job properly and contributing value to the team. After I said this, I would say if you give me a chance I will prove it to you.



I want to be a programmer or a database developer but could not figure out how to obtain a job like that or even what jobs out there in IT I am qualified for. The job search is very confusing for me.



I don't either. I can be tactful and restrained with my wife. I don't like hurting her feelings. She keeps asking her if she looks fat and I say yes every time. I don't think she is fat though for real.



I give my wife a compliment everytime.



I've done that with my wife.



I am an introverted guy. I don't care about matching my clothes and I feel like it's a waste of my time but my wife does not like it when I mismatch. I just let that go and let her help match my clothes. There are some battles that I have learned are just not worth the effort.



Of course I would have excellent manners and not burp at the table and when I do by accident I do say excuse me. Therein lies the problem. Does one have to be an extraverted salesperson in order to obtain employment? Do I have to be something I am not? This is where I have problems.



True!






This is what I thought at first but what these women say on this just confuses the heck out of me. I did speak to my younger cousin a few min ago who has aspergers as well. He is adjusting to things better than I am. He told me that everyone manipulates everyone. He told me that any manipulation that leads to a negative outcome for someone is not the good thing. For example, let's say someone keeps saying they're broke when they're not to obtain money for free lunch because they do not want to pay for it. If I persuade an employer to give me a job this is not emotional manipulation of the negative kind. The previous example is though.



I did not think it was dishonest. Based upon what these ladies say it would seem so. It's just so confusing. I just don't get it.

Through their prism anything aspies do to improve themselves that does not explicitly involve empathy for THEM, is looked at as honing manipulation skills. In the poster's view her ex was manipulative,so therefore any communication skills he acquires will be used for that purpose. Her assumption was not stated directly in that particular post, I don't think, but if you look at the body of her posts, that is what I conclude.[/quote]

What is he to do? How does he win? Is the rest of society like this? If so, then how do we as aspies truthfully succeed?

I know. I didn't think any of this was dishonest. Yet, these women would portray it as if this guy is like this Machiavellian manipulator. I just don't get it. This stuff just bothers me. What is the proper way to go? How do we live our lives with virtue with ourselves and with others? In your opinion, Am I just doing what I usually do and overthink these things?