Trouble Communication with Son

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In addition to what DW_a_mom says, it is helpful to use your son's name when you are speaking to him.

Say his name first, then whatever it is you have to say to him. That way you have a much better chance of attracting his attention. When he claims only to have heard you once, when you said something 5 times, it's very possibly because he didn't know you were talking to him. The fact that he might have been the only other person there is irrelevant!

Earlier today my son (age 12, mild AS) had a lot of trouble asking me a question, ultimately bringing me an object to express himself instead. I later remembered another time he had done this, and started wondering if talking to him about why he can’t speak in these situations might provide insight for your son. So, we talked about it. I have no idea if any of it will help you out, but it is interesting, and I hope I can summarize his thoughts accurately.

The times in question, with my son, have involved asking to go shopping to buy something, i.e. a toy using his own allowance. He told me that the reason he can’t verbalize this desire is because it violates a values code he wrote for himself around 4th grade, to not want things overly obsessively, i.e. to not be materialistic. Trying to present a desire that violates this codes reacts at an emotional/animal level to keep him from being successful in voicing it. The code is an important part of his being, he says, because it provides order for his life and a sense of control he needs.

We then talked about his fears with disappointing us in general, because obviously we would hope he could come to us with anything, and have tried to create an environment conducive to that. He says that intellectually, in his human\intellectual brain, he understands that. But at an animal/emotional level, he still is nervous because he wants people (regardless of environment and who) to see him as he sees himself, accurately, even the bad things, and when he violates his own code in front of others it could cause them to see him differently. In these situations the two brains fight each other.

When he is in meltdown, he added, his intellectual/human brain is still active, and aware of what is going on, but his animal/emotional brain (or perhaps innate/instinctive – he’s not sure where the lines there are) is in control. He feels the same way when trying to do something that violates the code he wrote for himself, that regardless of what the intellectual/human brain would tell him, the emotional/animal one is in control.

He also added that he withholds speaking with people when he is mad at them, but can’t imagine doing that for more than a day, because his need to talk is so strong, most of the time.

DW . . . . . . . wow! . . . . . . .

First, I envy you being able to communicate at that level. Sadly, I have zero communication. Zip. Nada.

I can't imagine that my son is deliberately holding back, as perhaps yours is (if I interpret correctly), I believe he is faced with a block that he can't verbally get through. I suppose my efforts with the Email is to allow a way around the block, rather than through it. I do not know (perhaps cannot know!) what the block may be, or perhaps it is deeply ingrained in the AS itself.

Again, let me thank everyone for the replies, and especially the replies from redwulf and buryuntime, you guys can lend some first hand insight that could prove very valuable.

Paula, your suggestion to find a support group is well received, though I may find that I have found one right here!

My codes are different and for different reasons but I'm the same way. If there is conflict with my codes that I can not resolve I shut down. It's your basic blue screen of death, please reboot redwulf to continue situation. It hadn't occurred to me this might be part of my AS.

I know there is a mile of difference in many ways but this is what you need to understand: there is nothing consciously deliberate about what my son is doing when he can't talk to me in this situations. When he talks about his animal/emotional brain, he is talking about something he has NO identified control over. How conscious thought (like the code) gets integrated into this subconscious action is something that may give clues into many autistic behaviors. At some point they may make a choice, but after that it ceases to be a choice. I don't know if they are even partially aware when step one happens of what it will lead to down the road. My son at THIS point in his life is aware he can create situations that change him deep inside, but he can't really say when he developed that awareness or how often he's intentionally used it or how many of his reactions came from such process. He actually admits to trying to teach himself to NOT FEEL negative emotion at a very young age, and feels he had partial success before he stopped it. When he told me that, it was like this light bulb answering my wondering how someone can be autistic and feel so much ... kids like him experience overly intense emotions, when the image of autism was always no emotion. Could some of those who experience nothing have turned it off at so young an age they don't even know they did it?

Yes, I am very lucky that he can talk, and both he and I feel we can use that to get to the tip of the iceberg with other kids who can't. He does feel connected to those kids; he does feel that they are "like" him. I know I walk a fine line when sharing things like this, because we ARE lucky, but that also leaves me with a sense that if what he can see in himself has any chance of helping another parent break through, we have to share it.

Another thought: when my son can't speak something, his fall back is something visual. Have you tried picture communication with your child? PECS?

If his situation is anything like mine his code was conscious thought only long enough to be formed and installed, it may not even have been conscious thought for much of that. If it's under conscious control it can be disobeyed and if it can be disobeyed it can't do the job he came up with it for.

Thank you DW for the insight, and sorry if I have offended.

I do understand that there is no "conscious blocking" going on with any of the kids, my thoughts ran toward the "code" of which you speak, and that the code has thrown up a block that your son is having to deal with. I suppose conscious was a poor choice of words.

Anyhoo, the Email is not working, I can't get the son to even look at it, much less interact or respond. He shuts down when I suggest that he try. I have asked Mom to try to encourage him to use the account, if that does not work I will ask big sister to show him. Mom or Sis might have a better shot if they approach it at the right time.

The PECS is intriguing, and I will continue to look into it. I am obviously just scratching the surface of what looks to be a big community.

I can't get past the fact that there are no blocks (most of the time) when speaking with Sis, that the skills are there, the vocabulary is there, and his intelligence is bordering on spooky. Just that Mom or myself (or anyone else other than Sis) can't get in. It is very frustrating.

One thing though is that my son is JUST PERFECTLY FINE!!. He is very happy doing what he does, completely engrossed and content in his world.

I seem to be the one with the problem . . . . . . . .

No, I can't afford to think like that, he will be an adult at some point, parents are not going to be around forever, etc, etc.

Neaderthal, you absolutely did not offend. This whole concept of creating a rule for oneself that moves into the subconscious and can no longer be disobeyed is so alien, I think, to an NT (at least to me) that of course we assume it is within their control. But it isn't, and that is hard to grasp. Did my son know when he wrote the code that he would never be able to verbalize a desire to go shopping again? I really doubt it, or he would have written his code with amendments

And that is the catch 22 an AS child can have. They think very black and white, and may have control over their subconscious minds in a way that we cannot grasp, so at very young ages may be making starling changes within themselves without full guidance or input from anyone, because who would have thought of it? Even an AS parent, by the time they've grown up, may no longer remember. If you expand upon this theory, and consider the experiences my son and redwulf have expressed ... it could explain a lot, including an oddity where a child is fluent at communicating with a sister, but not with a parent. If your daughter could gain an understanding of your son's codes, assuming (a) he has them and, more importantly (b) he is aware of their existance, then you might be to find an explanation for the behavior. If you have an explanation, you might be able to develop a path for change.

My son developed a gut reaction fear of dogs when he was 1 1/2, based on a single experience. Over time, he is being slowly reintroduced and the fear mitigated. Things set in the subconsious are difficult to change, but not impossible, but you do have to know they are there and have some sense as to why, and grant them validity. Then you can find a therapy for overcoming it.

Meanwhile, I would definitely try picture communication and see if it can help. I totally feel for the difficulty of your situation, and if we can brainstorm here anything, anything at all, that might help ... well, it would be great.

This one is about more than "you." It is about a pattern that could inhibit your son's life and even if you never change the reality between yourself and him, knowing that you could change in the reality for some future unknown situation would be a good thing, and a valuable goal.

I probably can't answer anything more until after Monday, just FYI.

Actually, from what I have seen, normal people do it just as much. Just ask any religious fanatic who has some irrational and unsupported belief. No matter what you say or what you do they will always think something even if it can be shown to be irrational and harmful. For example, my grandmother is afraid of president Obama because she believes he is a muslim marxist dictator who is trying to kill old people. No amount of evidence to the contrary will ever dissuade her from this belief.

It is a basic human trait to form these harmful and irrational beliefs based on limited evidence, and then stick to them no matter what. The difference is that your son is aware of the fact that his irrational idea is irrational, and is trying to overcome it and deal with it. That is a trait I wish more normal people had. As it is, it is exceedingly rare to find a normal person who even realizes they have irrational beliefs, let alone try to work on overcoming them.

I'll have to think about that because I don't see the two as the same at all. Political positions and beliefs about others form so differently, to me at least, than internal codes that can subconsciously prevent an action one wants to complete. But you see it as the same? I'll think about it.

I think that connecting with him through a special interest is a good idea. It will also help him to feel accepted. Something that I sorely needed, but never got.

They seem to be the same to me, unless I am entirely misunderstanding the point you are trying to express.

You could also be talking about an automatic defensive reflex that is embedded in the subconscious, and hard to shake even if you know otherwise. For example, I know that some tall observation towers like the CN tower in canada has a glass floor where you can look down and see the ground far below you. Of course everybody knows that this is safe and well engineered to prevent you from falling. But some people just have an automatic subconscious reflex that they shouldn't walk out on to a surface they can't see so far up. I know people would avoid that area of the floor and get petrified at the thought of just getting near that area even though they knew consciously it was completely safe. I would consider that more so to be a phobia.

I personally know that I had a very hard time talking to people when I was younger, but it was due primarily to social phobia. I was petrified of saying the wrong thing and making the situation worse. And of course this fear pretty much caused me to shutdown and be unable to function. But it wasn't as though I had some subconscious rule preventing me from talking to other people.

Trying a fresh approach. DS (Wow! I am picking up the acronyms!) has a Youtube account where he posts his video creations. I can send messages, videos, etc, basically just like Email.

Just sent him the lizard video, if I am careful, maybe he will be able to acknowledge that he got it, maybe that he laughed at it.

Either that, or I am going to ruin his Youtube experience . . . . . .

I actually have tried and usually still do give warnings leading up to when or what i expect to be done with all my boys. I'm not sure how many of you have heard of or are aware of the "Consensual Living" parenting model, but it's something we have tried to practice in our home for the past few years without a whole lot of success. In consensual parenting it is recommended to give all your children time to meet your requests and to give adequate warnings before transitions. In a situation like i described in my post i didn't realize it was useful to include the added information about what led up to the first request to get ready for bed. We had gotten food out for dinner that night after DH was home from work because i was too exhausted and frustrated with the boys to want to cook. I had told the boys beforehand that after we went out for dinner it would be bedtime because DH had worked late and i was stressed and needed time to relax. They were reminded again after we got home with our food that after they ate it would be time to get ready for bed. The top DS was playing with was his kid's meal toy. After we ate DH and i were helping the boys open up their toys and showing our youngest how to use his, and reminded them again, they could only play with the toys for a few minutes and then it would be time to get ready for bed. It was only after someone had said "Okay boys, that's enough now, time to get ready for bed," that the original dialogue i described took place. The other 2 boys started to get ready for bed DS just stood there continuing to spin the top. After we had been warning them for an hour they were going to be going to bed DH and i both felt they all had had adequate warning. Hence how easily frustrated DH became when DS was told repeatedly to stop playing and get ready for bed and he did not comply.

As i mentioned transitions are not the only time we have these problems. There are situations when DS is doing something like playing too rough with his younger brother or cousin and he has to be told over and over "Stop pulling on so and so's leg, he doesn't like it". My DS will sometimes continue until someone is yelling at him or physically removes him, which gets him really upset to be grabbed. He will lash out at anyone who tries to grab him. He's not intentionally trying to hurt the other child, but he plays too rough and doesn't respect bodily boundaries well. I can't give warnings in a situation like this. Because he has this issue the rule is that he isn't supposed to wrestle with the other children at all. Someone always gets hurt by accident and if it happens to be him he will lash out at the other child. I have trouble redirecting him in situations like this because all the boys like to wrestle, until someone gets hurt, and the other boys will provoke him even if i've told them to do other things instead. No matter how i try to redirect them from wrestling DS acts as though it's a punishment and melts down. We have a large trampoline in the backyard. If i tell them to jump one at a time it's a punishment. If i tell them to go play tag or hide and seek outside instead of wrestling on the bed it's a punishment. His autistic cousin who just turned 4 loves to be chased and wrestle too, and it can be a big issue to redirect when the 2 of them are playing together. Wrestling and chasing are some of the only ways cousin will interact with other kids at all, and is very fond of my DS because he loves to play this way as well.

We do use his name when addressing him most of the time. I usually end up saying it several times before i get his attention, and often times raising my voice eventually. One thing that hadn't occurred to me until now is eye contact. Maybe i need to try to make sure i am physically in front of him when addressing him, or between him and whatever seems to have his attention. He's usually not looking at me when i tell him to do things. There have been times though when i will ask him to stop jumping on the trampoline and come talk to me that he will be looking right at me and continue to jump several more times before getting down. When i ask him why he continues to do something after i've told him to stop he just says "I don't know".

This morning i had a hard time getting his attention and waved my hand off to the side of his face and what he was looking down at and it got his attention, but he jumped back and yelled "Get out of my face"! I wasn't really in his face, my hand was at least 3 feet away and peripheral, not directly in front of him because i didn't want to be right in his face. I don't know what exactly to do to get his attention without him feeling threatened. How do i get eye contact without him feeling like i'm in his face?

Peace.

Good questions. I am glad you are giving the warnings on transitions; I find so many parents don't, and once they add that in, things change quite a bit.

As for how to get his attention ... perhaps have a conversation with him about it, during a nuetral time. Ask him what he feels works best, and have him agree to a method. Then, if he ends up jumping at the effort, you can remind him that he choose the method, and ask if he has an alternative he would like to try. Tell him you are willing to work on different ways of getting his attention, but that he needs to understand you expect him to work with you and to find something effective, because you NEED to be able to get his attention in all situations. Sometimes the conversation alone is enough to make my realize how important his listening to me is.

But, yes, they are young and impulse control is really difficult.

We generally don't allow wrestling either. Except that his sister constantly starts it, even though we've told her countless times not to, and it's come down to telling her when she finally gets hurt that we aren't going to punish her brother for it because she is the one who asked us not to stop them, and went in knowing full well that she gets hurt. Every. Single. Time. WHY do siblings DO this?!

I think i may actually be starting to figure a few things out on my own thank goodness, as i did have a conversation with him about this a few days ago during a neutral time. When i asked him how he would best like me to attempt to get his attention he lightly tapped his leg. So i asked "If i lightly tap you on the shoulder this, would that be fine?" I tapped him gently 2 or 3 times with one finger tip, and he agreed that would be fine. I haven't had a chance yet to try it out, but we shall see soon enough how it works out, i'm sure. I think it's starting to sink in with me a little bit to ask HIM more questions about what's going on with him or what he needs. I've been approaching him wrong in a lot of instances i think, by asking questions like "Why did you do such and such?" when he usually doesn't have an answer. I'm going to try harder to figure out the RIGHT questions to be asking and hope that helps some.

As far as the impulse control and aggression issues those there things i'm still having a really hard time figuring out how to handle and will probably be asking more questions regarding those issues in other posts. I feel like i've taken over this thread a bit and would like to apologize to the OP. I realize you started this thread because you need answers to your own questions. I'll try to start more of my own threads from here on out and allow people to focus their responses on the concerns of the OP.

Peace.