I just don't know how to react

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But that's it-- he does notice. He gets very upset and angry (quite revengeful, in fact) if they don't go watch him play hockey or want to hear about his game that they couldn't go to.

I just so much want 5 people who can be together, enjoying each other's company instead of 5 separate people living under the same roof. Perhaps that isn't possible.

DenvrDave- He will talk about hockey if he played or read something about it very recently. Otherwise he just sits there.

Hmmm, that is very curious...and puzzling...but sounds like he very clearly has a need for inclusion...or validation...Do you suppose perhaps it's rooted in the feeling that you and the other two kids share a blood bond and he feels as though he'll never be a 'legitimate' part of that family?



Well, I don't know their ages, but the older they get, the more 'separate' they will become. It's just the nature of the beast, independence. The bonds are forged early, hopefully, and then the gulf begins to widen and it doesn't stop until they've been out on their own for a few years. It's somewhat harder when one comes into a relationship already in progress, so to speak. How much harder can vary a lot. I raised two stepboys who were literally an angel and and angry imp. Night and day. How did both temperaments evolve out of the same prior situation? Go figure.

I don't know if he feels he won't b a legitmat part of the family. We have definitely talked about it. We all certainly act like it. Even extended family treats him absolutely no differently from my biological children.

The boy with AS is 9, my daughter is 9, and my son is 11. I definitely expect it to get more "separate" as they get older, but we have always all looked forward to doing stuff together and spending time together (still that way with my 2). I very much want to include the other and definitely do my best to do so, but unless its his idea, he refuses to participate. Doesn't exactly make it easy

Just out of curiosity: how soon after school/ after school activities is the family coming together to discuss the day? I know that when I come home from work at the end of the day, I'm drained from dealing with people all day, and not in the mood to converse with anyone. All I want to do when I get home is read/ browse on my computer for a while, take a nap, then read/ browse on my computer for a while longer. It's *hours* before I feel ready to talk to anyone, and even then, there are few people I feel it to talking to. By the time this boy gets home, he just might have "had enough," and need a decent chunk of time in a quiet space away from everyone. Is he given time for that?
You need to realize that indidividuals with AS generally lack the social instincts NTs such as yourself take for granted. We often wind up having to compensate to the greatest extent posible using our intellect. This often renders it necessary for us work really hard in the sorts of social situations that naturally arise on a daily basis. This can often render dealing with most other people a challenging, tedious, and exhausting activity. In my case, not having adequate time to get away from everyone and decompress leads to diminished functioning, and sometimes meltdowns.
I hope this explanation makes sense. It's not an easy thing to put into words, and it took me a long time to write this.
You can set aside time for family activities, preferably ones that are short in duration. Shortly after the end of the school day is *not* the best time for these activities. Perhaps, you could go for a brief family outing on weekends as a bonding activity. You can set aside clear rules outlining that everyone has a turn to talk and share what's on their mind.
I hope this helped.

Last edited by OuterBoroughGirl on 03 Apr 2010, 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Maybe he isn't making the connection between wanting people to be interested in his interests, and the fact that other people might want him to be interested? I know that part of my AS is discrete perception that makes it difficult to make connections between situations, so if he's the same,
"my interests and how people should react" and
"other people's interests and how I should react"
could be sitting in completely different boxes in his head.
If this is the case, it might help, when he is wanting people to pay attention to his interests, especially if they aren't and he gets upset, to explain that this is how his siblings feel when he ignores the things that make them excited.

I've been puzzling over this off and on for several hours now, and of course, not being in the moment to observe, it's hard to say anything with certainty, but I've been casting back on moments when I have as both a child and an adult felt such a need for attention that I became pissy and resentful about it and acted out, and what I keep coming up with you probably already know. He's feeling extremely emotionally needy right now for some reason, so the hugging is probably the best thing you can do for him. Remember there's something in the autistic brain that is comforted by physical pressure, so make 'em firm and lasting, like you mean it, or it will just be irritating.

Getting him to talk about it may be next to impossible and if you do, his communication will be defensive and argumentative, because sometimes people asking us personal questions feels like interrogation, intrusive and prying. Its hard for us to talk about feelings out loud, for the reasons I mentioned earlier - we're so used to being told our way of seeing things is wrong, that it's easier to clam up than try to explain anything.

It may be that sharing his interest in Hockey is so important, because he feels it's all he has to share, to participate in the family in a way that's comfortable to him. If Hockey is his obsessive interest of the moment, then it's not just something he does - it's WHO HE IS and in a way, that makes it a little different than what the others are into. They likely have lots of interests and sides to who they are, so many that any one of those interests doesn't strike him as being of life or death importance, but Hockey is ALL HE HAS to share himself with the group.

Then, there is the simple truth that we're just lousy at focusing on, or showing interest in, anything that doesn't interest us (one of our huge problems when it comes to employment). As someone said earlier, feigning an interest just to make somebody feel better feels like lying to us, and many of us have an inborn knee-jerk aversion to dishonesty. Not because we're born angels, but because we're naive enough, especially as kids to be taken advantage of, hurt and humiliated very easily. That combined with the fact that our brains' processing speed makes juggling our own mistruths and deceptions nearly impossible, so we just opt to avoid situations that require lying.

Anyhow, I don't know how much help that is, but I can tell you this: anger is just the outward expression of frustration - and living in a world in which everyone around you is speaking a different language is frustrating, stressful and frightening from moment-to-moment. For us it never stops, except when we're alone and it's nearly impossible to share our feelings about it with another person in any way that makes you feel like they understood you. So I wish you much patience, understanding and luck (especially in finding avenues of communication), for his sake as well as yours.

To be honest, I'm with him on this. If it's a quid pro quo, basically it says each person gets to waste a certain amount of time pretending to be interested in the other person's activities. Isn't that just a huge waste of time? Wouldn't it be better for each person to just focus on things they actually are interested on, and not pretend an interest in things they aren't interested in? Yes, I know there are social issues, but I'm starting with the rational basics, which is likely where he is.

Now, what you will probably say is that the sister actually has a genuine interest - or at least it's something that feels and looks genuine. But you know something? That's not going to happen with your son. You can teach him to pretend an interest, and maybe even to make it look halfway convincing, but it won't ever be real. And it may teach him that the way to deal with the world is to put on a face and lie, which might be a lesson that has downsides. It's up to you whether you think that's a good way to guide his development.

I don't think quid pro quo is the right way to teach it. I think you should take a different approach. I'd suggest that you take the approach of making it a social obligation, unrelated to whether the sister takes an interest in his activities. "Your sister would really appreciate if you came and listened to her concert. Let's go." You make the decisions on the occasions, and don't give him a choice, at least at first. If later on he starts volunteering which occasions he'd rather go to, that's fine.

If he likes his sister, emphasize that it will make his sister happy, which is something that he hopefully wants to do. He may argue that it doesn't make sense for her to care whether he is there or not, but that might be a good opportunity to teach him about neurotypicals. "I know it doesn't really make sense, but that's how your sister is, and you do want her to be happy, right?" If he doesn't particularly like his sister or want to make her happy, then just make it a social obligation - emphasis on obligation.

I think that will work - even aspie kids realize that sometimes they have to do what their parents tell them, even if it doesn't make sense - and it would seem to me a more honest approach. For what it's worth, with my neurotypical brother, it was great when we actually did something together where we both contributed and accomplished something we couldn't have done alone, but I never went to his football games and he never went to my debate team meets. That never hurt our relationship, which is really strong.

memesplice has it right, I think. It's not that your hockey son appreciates other people taking an interest in his activites; like Willard, I don't think that makes sense as an aspie. It may look that way, but it's something different.

It's that, to the hockey son, hockey is the most important and most interesting thing in the world. Not just the most interesting thing in the world to him - it's the most interesting thing in the world, period. And since hockey is the most interesting thing in the world, of course everyone in the world is interested in it! So of course his siblings are more interested in talking about hockey than about their own activities, which, given those activities are not hockey, must be less interesting, even to his siblings.

And given that his siblings must be more interested in hockey than in their own activities - remember, hockey is the most interesting thing in the world - of course they will enjoy talking to him about hockey more than they would enjoy talking to him about their own activities.

You may need to explain to him that, while hockey is the most interesting thing in the world to him, it's really not that big a deal to most people. It will be a letdown, but he may need this realization at some point.

Again, I note that parental interest and sibling interest are different. He may well want you parents to be interested because he wants your support, even if he realizes you have interests other than hockey. And he may well want his parents to show that support by showing up at the hockey games. That's a different situation from the siblings, though.

One other possibility I'll mention in passing: it's also possible that the hockey coach is encouraging the kids to get their families to attend. He may feel pressure from that direction as well.

So, your saying that doing things separately from your sibling never hurt you, your brother, or your relationship. Yet it is a good idea to force the child to do something against his will which he doesn't like for no benefit? I remember my mother taking me to all sorts of 'social obligations' when I was younger; family reunions, little league sports, my brother's events, etc. Trust me when I tell you that the only thing it did was give me social anxiety, and make me miserable. Unless there is some sort of scheduling conflict where the only way you can organize things is to take all your children to the game then I don't see the point. Trust me when I say that forcing your son to come along isn't going to cheer up his siblings if your son is having a meltdown from being stuck in an arena or other large gathering of people.

Really I think you just need to explain to your son that not everybody is interested in hearing about what he has to say all the time. There may be some people who are interested some of the time, but not everybody all the time. It is a harsh thing to say, but unfortunately it is true. Better your son learn this now then later. If he wants to talk hockey, perhaps he should find other people who share his interest, like his team mates.

I happen to agree with what Psychohist has said.

I have done this with my daughter, there were always things she didn't want to do, didn't want to try... Things she kept refusing. Well - how do you know if you like or dislike something until you try it? And yes - there were some things that you'd probably think were 'forced' unpon her - however - the deal we made with her was that she was not allowed to turn it down until she actually tried it. After that she was allowed to make the decision as to whether or not she wanted to participate. There are some family obligations that she has to do - just like there are some rules that she has to follow (like we ALLLLL have to follow at home or at work or at school) whether she wants to or not. Interestingly enough - some of the things she absolutely 'hated' before she tried them were things she wanted to do after she tried them.

I don't make her go to her brother's soccer practices or games, I don't make her brother watch her play tennis. They both think the other's 'sport' is dorky... They're entitled to their opinions. Her brother likes going to her concerts (orchestra) and she gives him guitar lessons when he wants to learn a new song. She loves going to his school's art shows and presentations. They find common ground and they do enjoy each other's company when they do things they both like doing. People don't have to do EVERYTHING together or to be interested in EVERYTHING another person does to have a good or close relationship.

That your Mom dragged you to social events all the time was probably not really all that fair - especially once you were of an age that you could stay home. Maybe you would not feel so strongly about the issue of 'forcing' a child to do things if you had been given the choice to pick and choose which social occasions you wanted to or were willing to attend?

We all have to make compromises to get along in life. Heck - I make compromises with my dog! It's a part of life and it is what we do to participate within our families, our relationships, our jobs and ultimately - society.

I really do appreciate everyone's thoughts and experiences with this. It's very important to me to make the positive decisions in regard to our family. It isn't very often that all of us have to be at one function, but there are a few that I really push for us all to be at (The AS boy does not get freaked out in crowds or anything). When there are championships for any of the kids, I want us all to be there. When my daughter dances Irish Fest (HUGE), i expect everyone to be there. That being said, both myself and my bf want to watch all the kids do their stuff, so in those cases when scheduling doesn't get in the way, we all go.

A bit problem comes in at this age, I think, and its what I am most concerned about. We live in a subdivision with a few kids (not many) that seem to almost live here, lol. They always want to play with the kids. The AS boy wants to play too. But at this age, the kids seem to want friendship. And discussion of the "quid pro quo" is where I think this may be very important. In order to keep friends, you actually have to act interested in what they say and do as well. I suspect, from what everyone is saying, that the friendship end of it won't be important to the AS boy, but being included will be. Unfortunately, its almost impossible (as far as I can see) to expect kids to include you without having a friendship.

So far, I have been able to explain to the other 2 to accept his difference (they just don't understand it) and still treat him as you would others. They very much do include him (most of the time).

As for when we talk about their days, they get off school at 2:30. They have time to do their homework and goof around til around 5 or 5:30 when we have dinner. It's usually during dinner that we catch up on our days. Sometimes its closer to bedtime (we try to take a night time walk each night).

As for his frustration, I WISH I understood it. I don't want him to feel frustrated and I want to help. I guess I need to stay patient and keep trying. Does anyone think that a counselor or therapist would help him to be able to communicate his feelings/wants/needs? Or will it just take time?

Thanks!

It might be a good idea to consult with a therapist, even if it is just to help you out and give you ideas rather than for him.

As a couple of others have said here, it is probably worth talking to your son about why it is important for him to ask about his siblings' sports and listen to what they say and relate it to how he feels when no one wants to hear about his hockey game. He probably has never made the connection. Also, include your son in family conversations and ask his opinion about things like what to have for dinner but don't push him to respond. He will respond when he feels ready, but it is important that he is made to feel just like everyone else.

As for hugging, ask your son for his opinion about it. If he hates it, sit down with him and come up with another way to show your love that is not as threatening or awkward for him. Tell him that it is important to you that you show him how much he is loved and valued in your family, but you want it to be a good thing for him also. You might end up doing high fives or something hockey related, but if it works for him, it's good.

Thanks. I note that I'm not really disagreeing with Tracker much. I'm just emphasizing the part about having a few social obligations, while he's emphasizing the part about allowing the kids to operate independently from each other.

I definitely agree with Tracker that us aspies need eventually to learn that no, not everyone sees our special interests as totally captivating the way we do.


Yes. Some of these we may end up liking, but there will be some that we just have to do whether we like it or not. For the latter, it's not necessary to pretend that we like them; it's just necessary to do them.


Exactly. Sometimes it's okay to do things independently from siblings or others.


I think you would have to find a counselor or therapist who specialized in aspies, or who was an aspie himself. Otherwise, you may just end up continuing to try to fit him into the mold that you and your other two kids happen to fit - one that he just won't go into at all.

I do think you should encourage children with ASDs to perform in what you would call "normal" social interactions. In a perfect world, we can say what we like, when we like, without caring what others think and without it affecting our life, e.g. in a work capacity you can't just interrupt during a meeting and tell your boss s/he's boring you, because that's rude, and could cost you your job.

So it is vital that we (people with ASD) learn such things that "normal" people know naturally to get what we want out of life.

Give him a hug occasionally. He will have to accept it. Encourage him to participate in daily family conversations. If needed, give him a timeframe to work on, such as 5pm-6pm is "anything but hockey chat-time".