Arggghhhh...

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bethaniej:

Every time I look back at this thread, I rather wish I had approached my earlier post differently. I was so grateful for Irsihwhistle putting what I was trying to say into perspective and adding some humor! Normally, I try to be a more gentler poster, but I think tax season is getting to me (I actually work this time of year, and a lot). My point that we have to look at how we enable those around us without putting all the blame on them remains valid, but we don't own their actions, either, and shouldn't blame ourselves when they act poorly as we may - or may not - have been able to change that. Some people will run over you no matter how hard you try to stop them but, then again, if someone really is a good friend I would at least hope that wasn't true. Pushy and self-centered, maybe (I have friends like that). Totally willing to ignore you in all cases all the time, then are they really friends?

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 11 Apr 2010, 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Spot on. The motto of bullies everywhere.

I really feel for Bethaniej and her daughter. Sometimes the behaviour of other adults towards our children does not get the reaction it deserves because it takes us by surprise. At the time it seems sort of surreal and so you don't respond right. It's only afterwards that you find yourself thinking "eh?".

You are an awesome moderator DW.

Thank you!! !! !

I hope you didn't take my thanks for that the wrong way. I was being sincere. The friend was angry that Madison "took it wrong" and got angry. So I was left thinking...am I crazy? It was good to hear someone else say it wasn't ok. And also to say that I wasn't forceful enough...which I wasn't.

Everyone's posts have given me a lot to think about. I did talk to the friend again...a very long discussion about why it was wrong.

I didn't take it the wrong way, but I also kept feeling I could have brought in the perspective I did better the first time. I am very glad you were able to talk things out with your friend.

Some interesting comments here. The way I see it, its a bit of a lame 'joke', but is probably the sort of low key teasing that most kids would handle fine. I can imagine the way my daughter would handle it she'd be hands on hips, giving me the look, or demanding a tax on everyones ice-cream - basically sticking up for herself and looking after #1, and I guess your your friend did it in that type of context.

So I don't think she sounds a bad person, just ignorant. It sounds like your daughters diagnosis hasn't resonated with her, and that she doesn't take it seriously or just completely misunderstands.
I think you need to educate her better about how your daughter would take something like that and how it would make her feel.

Meh, I still think it sounds mean-spirited. Even if the only issue was the difference between people as far as likes and dislikes, she knew the kid did not like that sort of thing and did it anyway. In my opinion, that amounts to selfishness. However, I will concede this point... if the lady recognized that it's not her place to school others in how to cope with irritation, and that saying others will offend does not excuse deliberate offense, if she realized in short that it would not do to joke where jokes aren't appreciated, the problem would be solved. It really doesn't have to be more complex than that. The simple truth is, that if you respect someone, you respect their likes and dislikes. You don't try to force yours on them.

It also brings my thoughts around to another issue I can't help finding troubling. I see this around a lot... adults who expect the respect from children that they will not show those children. Just because their ability to make choices lacks the broader frame of reference of the adult does not mean that they should have all choice taken away. And just because they're kids, doesn't mean you get to mess with their heads. But a lot of adults seem to think they have that right. I'm also seeing too many teachers who expect total respect from kids from day 1 and then tell the kids that they have to earn theirs. My daughter had one of those last year. They rule by censure and humiliation and then expect the kids they embarrass to have respect for them.

This friend is not going to have that respect if kids feel she can't be trusted. You shouldn't have to earn basic respect, but you can certainly make a pretty good effort to lose it.

There I go ranting again. But I do think this is connected with that issue.

You are a breath of fresh air!! !! I'm not the one who posted but at last, somebody had the guts to cut right to the quick!! ! I love your avatar too. I like guns n' rabbits. I like it especially when the "rabbit" has the gun.

You might think I'm crazy but your so-called friend doesn't want your daughter to get better.
She likes to keep you and your very own baby "DOOOWWWWNNN". Because she's up and you're down. You just may be on the spectrum yourself because an NT would've thrown her out of the house. I really doubt this is the first time this anti-friend did this. She may have done this before in little ways but you just didn't notice it. This kind of behavior from that non-friend will surely alienate your daughter. Certainly, your daughter will have to get used to rude people but why is a friend being the teaching field for this. This will only teach your child that friends do this to you and that she is a doormat. I'd like to rip your friend's hair out clump by clump. Why didn't she deny her "own" child the ice cream to get her used to it!!?
P.S. Your gut feeling at the end of your post was right!! ! All these years, you may have been taught to "think" your feelings. It's due time you "felt" your feelings. Some people can only stand a friendship when they are able to keep their friend down...and now it's spilling onto the kids. Pride is the downfall of so many people. Your friend is full of it enough to think that she even knows how the world operates. ROARRRRRRR!! !! !! !! I'm sorry but I HATE when people do that!! That woman needs to get used to people like me who will kick her arse in a heartbeat.

I am sorry you had that experience. If this was just the first time, I'd let it go, maybe. There will be those friends that "get-it" and the ones that don't. I sure have learned so much about people's character , or lack of it, by the was they treat my lil ASpie. I don't know about you all , but I go into that "mama bear " defensive mode (to a fault) where my kids are involved. Glad you confronted her, but know what I am still learing.. a leopard doesn't change it spots. Maybe not a good one for you and your daughter to be around. Yes, I do agree with the people who say there will always be these types and we can't shelter them from all and they should learn to deal with them, but I still can't and I am an "NT" , so imagine our poor kids with these toxic types. Me personally, I'd limit my interactions with these types.

That being said, how many of you had major problems on April Fool's Day? My own husband & daughter pulled a prank on my poor son, i had no idea, that set B into a tizzy.They meant no harm. Grampa and B got them back really good...but sometimes we all forget that our literal, rigid & routine bound (mine) ASD kids don't get some of these jokes, jokes that a "nt" might just shrug off.

Always learning..everyday.

Your reading of how NT's would handle the situation is completely and absolutely wrong, and if you want to live happy in this world we've got to get this misconception straightened out, and the possible chip on your shoulder off. Life is NOT all about keeping someone else down, and kind people sometimes do stupid and mean things. Do I know which category this woman's friend falls into, a mistake v. a jerk? NO, I don't, because I haven't met her. But, then again, neither have you. So how can you draw the conclusions you so strongly did? The OP posted later that she has since had a really good talk with the friend and that they both now understand each other and the negatives in the situation better. THAT is what NT's do - they wonder if they've read it wrong and, then, sit down and TALK IT OUT until they have WORKED IT OUT. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to maintain ANY friendship over the long term, because PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES. If you want to believe that life is all about power plays all the time, and every mistake is intended to keep someone else down, then you will put yourself into power plays time and time again and be stuck living that way. We create the world we perceive. Want a different one? Change your perception.

When I meet, in real life, people who are quick to make the negative assumptions you have, I steer clear. I don't have time for that attitude, or the games I see coming as a result. There are plenty of less jaded folks to hang around and enjoy being with. THAT is how the NT's I know live; without chips, without anger, without assumptions, and with lots of acceptance. Sure, some are different, but why focus on them? They aren't the rule, at least not in my life. If they are in yours, then change your life by changing your attitude.

If you're going to be moving to the West Coast, you'll have to learn the West Coast attitude. Like I posted to you before, people here are AGGRESSIVELY politically correct. Which means, tolerance first (or, at least, the appearance of it), about EVERYTHING. Chips and anger are usually perceived as rude, so it's best not to carry any.

Sorry for coming on so strong, and maybe it isn't wise for me to post at all while the middle of deadline stress, but I would really like you to at least THINK about your own attitudes and perceptions, and how they may be needlessly, negatively affecting your own life and that of your kids.

While I agree with some of what you say, I have to disagree with this part. You are lucky if the neurotypicals in your life are really like that, but I've found that, as a rule, neurotypicals tend to live with a lot of assumptions, show acceptance only to those that share those assumptions, and get quite angry when those assumptions are challenged. They tend to resolve this by self sorting into social groups with shared assumptions.

"Changing one's attitute" by switching to the shared assumptions can work for neurotypicals, and may have worked for you in your community, but is not going to work for an aspie. We can't just change our assumptions to a set of assumptions that we know is wrong and self contradictory. That's not how we work. Some other adjustment is needed. Get rid of the chip on one's shoulder, sure, but also avoid social interactions or else get used to clamping one's mouth shut.


If it was really about tolerance of everything, it wouldn't be aggressive, would it? The fact is, politically correct circles tend to be extremely intolerant of certain views. You're right that one would need to be careful, though. For an aspie, that would consist of learning what the politically correct gestalt is, and avoiding pointing out its internal inconsistencies at all costs.

All valuable input. I am in a bit of a mood right now, but I get frustrated seeing the self-destructive pattern of assuming everyone is trying to bring one down, and then making that reality come true by what gets seen as a negative attitude. I was trying to be careful to qualify, because it certainly can be true that others are trying to keep you down, especially if someone has AS and conforming is difficult, but at the same time I do want to break that chip, assumming it exists as it appears to.

Yes, that is the funny thing about being politically correct. It can be kind of a forced tolerance, and I've heard people complain that in this area it is actually anything but tolerant. But if one is going to survive around here, it is something one needs to be aware of. The appearance of tolerance and a forgiving attitude is really important. No one is as perfectly tolerant as they would like others to believe they are, but they expect you to act as if you agree they really are beautifully inclusive - or, if not, giving them credit for trying very hard. Failing that social rule can make life rougher than it needs to be. I thought she needed to know about it before she moved, to kind of get in the drift, so to speak.

It is hard to know how it is all seen from a true AS perspective. My son is such a happy little guy, so things tend to roll off of him, and the AS adults I know are kind of split. Some are perfect fits for the prevailing attitude (hence very happy here). One I'm not sure if he considers himself AS - it's just my guess - and he so aggressively conservative that he has a lot of fun tweaking everyone for what he sees as their overdone PC; I don't think he cares if he fits in or if everyone thinks he's rude. I would say my husband is in the former group, sharing the local attitudes (why he moved here and stayed here), but he gets a kick out of the man who is his opposite, maybe because that guy is ready to tweak the world in a way my husband feels he wouldn't dare to. We spend a lot of time defending our family friendship with that man.

Sorry, I digress.

I don't know if I am AS or not. I score poorly on reading the eyes test, but score NT on others. I don't think in pictures and can't relate to quite a few things discussed here, like the logic. Still, now that my mom understands how my son is AS, and how my dad might have been, she isn't so sure ... she says there were quite a lot of times when I was a kid that she was surprised by what I didn't "see" socially. Either way, I'm not firmly in the AS box at this point, so I can't use my own experience to say what someone with AS is or isn't going to understand about the social rules here, and I may not be conveying my points right for helping someone with AS accomplish that, either. Sigh. Day before a deadline may not be the best time to dip my toes into complex ideas. Not sure I'm thinking straight, so take everything with that grain of salt.