violent daughter

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Why is she violent? What does she hope to gain through being violent?

We have similar issues with my now 10y/o son, and there's another thread here about it: http://www.wrongplanet.net/posts133594- ... 9af427c822

I like Tracker's book very much and have been helped by it.

I am finding that my son responds to me counting down, whether or not he's in control of himself - so I use a countdown to get him to go to his room; I have a lock on the outside of the door that I've only had to use twice. He cannot calm himself down if he stays in the situation or around other people; he needs to be alone. He knows he is responsible to repair or replace anything he breaks, and to clean up anything he throws. If he uses one of his personal belongings as a weapon, that item is thrown away. I do not point out any of these rules to him when he's in the middle of an outburst: when he's calm and I can be calm, I remind him of his responsibilities.

FWIW, I generally agree with your doctor about meds, though I think meds and the decision to use them are a highly individual thing; nobody reacts to them the same way and every person has an individual physiology and psychology. (I was on tricyclic antidepressants in college, they were like wearing a suit of pillows - nothing got in. NOTHING. It was a nice break, but I couldn't live there.) My own tipping point for my son (which we haven't reached yet) is if I believe that he could cause serious harm to himself or someone else (I admit, I struggle a bit with where to draw the line regarding "serious," but thus far no blood has been drawn and nobody's gone to the hospital)

One first-line defense: you can call 911 and have police and paramedics transport your daughter to the hospital for an involuntary committal. They are trained to do this, although I would call the hospital she'd be transported to and find out their protocols. It doesn't have to be a permanent situation, and you can do this if you feel that your daughter might harm anyone in the household, including herself.

I thought the poster said that meds weren't an option for her at this point.

Try hospitalization before turning her over to social services or boarding school. If she has started her period that could be a cause of major meltdowns but might be helped with birth control.

Social services? Heavens, NO!! !!

Look, I've got a 3-year old who refuses to potty train and is prone to tantrums. And while I can't allow myself to simply appease the kid (i.e. just let him take control of the house, which is unacceptable), I do have to figure out what it takes to get him under control for fear his meltdown might become a pattern--making our lives and his sister's life miserable.

Granted, I'm not the parent of a 12-year old, but I AM a former middle-school/high-school teacher who teaches piano lessons to kids of all ages (even the grown-up ones). I had a little run-in with social services, which came at the hands of some very not-nice people from our church.

Social Services might SEEM like a decent option at first. But if your 12-year-old is being violent to the 8-year old, they are going to want to know what it is you aren't doing to keep the 8-year-old safe. They will automatically say that if you're negligent enough to let your 12-year-old get out of hand and act violently towards the 8-year-old, then probably nothing will be different after they take the 12-year old. And even after they take the 12-year old, they will want to investigate what's going on. What they will probably do is take BOTH the 12-year old AND the 8-year old and they will SAY it's only temporary.

If you go that route, don't you DARE fall for it. They will NOT temporarily take the 8-year old. You will lose both children.

I'm assuming the 12-year old is autistic/AS? If social services takes her, then they will probably put her in a foster home that is NOT equipped to handle a special-needs child. Your 8-year-old who is just probably doing nothing but minding her own business might end up in a violent home and end up abused by the other kids that live there.

I'm not saying what's happening with your 12-year-old is your fault, so please don't misunderstand me. What I am saying is that social services will assume that. If you want to keep your children, do NOT go there.

Now, some kind of boarding school might be different. Working with a child psychologist (who is NOT a social worker) would also work to your advantage. You don't really want to call the police because it isn't their job to take care of your child, and you might just end up right back where you started if not worse. DO get help. But SS and the police are government agencies. It's always best if you keep government OUTSIDE your home.

Honestly, it sounds like she needs a good old fashioned spanking. Like Willard said, AS explains her tantrums, but it doesn't excuse them.

If spanking her isn't an option, then explain to her that she either behaves or she goes to social services. Sometimes you just have to pull a few weeds to protect the good plants. In the old days, you could also send them to military school.

Some people here don't even seem to understand what an autistic meltdown is, and therefore have no basis upon which to make judgements or give advice.

(source http://momofautistic.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Behavior&action=display&thread=300&page=1http://momofautistic.proboards.com/)

The simple fact is, discipline will not work during a meltdown, and coupled with classic autism as opposed to asperger's, punishment after the activity may not so readily become recognised as a consequence of the activity. With PDA too it is far less likely.

That the person from social services seems to think that it is only a matter of discipline, shows that they do not understand either autism or PDA at all, and are not fit to be handling the case. From a little reading I've found that CAMHS and SS are often based in the same offices for the local authority, and can be very chummy and supportive of each other. While they may claim to be professional, as I'm sure many of us are aware, they are anything but qualified, as autism specific support is nigh on non-existent from the PCTs in this country, with the remaining 'professionals' not being fit for the purpose of providing support, as they have no relevant training at all, and are applying unsuitable methods.

I think it's got to the point where you need to go over the head of the person from social services (and her probable friends at CAMHS). The National Autistic Society should be your first point of reference, as their advice is the kind that government policy is based on, and therefore if SS are going against this, then they are clearly in the wrong. You will probably have to escalate it in the courts though, as again the lower levels are too closely tied to and supportive of local authorities, regardless of their obligations to uphold the disability and care laws. If you're going to do this you should have all your research and legal support in place before SS get any clue you intend to take this route, otherwise they will just dig in even further, and have time to prepare themselves.

It may also be worth looking for advice more tailored to PDA. Because it's only recognised in the UK sources will be limited compared to conventional ASDs though. The PDA Contact Group may be a good place to start. This thread in particular may be of interest, as it deals with a parent having trouble with their local authorities.

Thanks Duncan

Ive made a thread about it on 'PDA contact', but it does not have many posting members so has not had much responce.

I will see how it goes.

Im just so tired of everything its so hard. I just make everything worse for everyone. I wish I was able to do a better job at things, I seem to ruin everything I touch. Im so disheartened

She is probably lashing out and melting down at this school too. Talk to the teachers and find out how they respond when she does this. Whatever they are doing at school, do the same at home.

If she isn't doing this at school, find out how they are framing their directions to her. If they have figured out a way to get her to follow their directions without melting down, adopt their methods.

In any case, if you do things at home similar to how they do things at school, the consistency could be helpful to her. I talked to my daughter's teachers and started responding just like them whenever possible. The consistency between home and school was helpful. They may be doing or saying things you never even thought of and they just assume you are doing the same at home.

they mostly seem to throw her in the 'quiet room' when she gets cross

other things they have done is promicing her a sandwich if she calms down

They dont seem to deal with her very well. Most of the kids there are quite low functioning with lots of learning difficulties so she is very different to them as she seems more understanding (does not tho) of people and has good language.

she doesnt do much work there as she is non complient and mainly does what she likes.

when I ask the teacher about things she is very vague and hard to follow, they talk about stuff in euphamisms ("she had a difficult patch at lunch" I find out later means she threw a table across the room) and are not frank and direct enough for me to gather what their plan is or what they are doing. Its hard as they are used to talking to NT parents who would understand the 'hidden/implied meaning' where as I find it confusing and frustrating. And because so many kids there are much 'worse' they give the impression of her behaviour being 'the least of their worries', or I am fussing too much.

I was overly harsh about the school, they are much better at handeling her than I am and have achieved a lot of progress.

Inappropriate response towards people with PDA. All you will end up doing is escalating the violence. Restraining a minor is not going to be looked upon favourably by the fuzz here in the UK. The onset of puberty is a very common time for women and people with autism or learning disability to develop aggression and/or epilepsy. Such violence is not easy to deal with at all. I have been a staff nurse in places were we had young autistic women similair to lotusblossom's daughter.

The level of violence such people are capable of displaying is not like your typical spoilt brat scenario. This is pure animalistic rage. The reason this one girl in particular came to our place was because of the situation at home was becoming unbearable for the parents who were basically living under constant seige by their daughters level of aggression towards them. The background was all similair too, onset of puberty was the trigger for a sudden increase in aggression which grew worse over time until the parents were unable to cope.

Your typcial spoilt brat retains some rationality in what they do and such behaviour. This kind of violence is not rationale, its dangerous. It required 5 fully grown adults to restrain a 19 year old girl who was intent on causing you physical harm. Normally in such techniques you release and withdraw ASAP we would take up to 20 minutes sometimes before we could release and withdraw which was grossly unacceptable and we were in dilema's were you had to let go or do physical damage to the person but the minute you withdrew you would have a matter of seconds before she would be onto you. Dragging you down to the floor ripping hair out of the scalp, tearing ear's in half, gouging eyes.

Yeah we had quite a few people hospitalised with back and neck injuries too.

thanks laz, I often think of the things youve told me about that patient of yours and it definately seems like my daughter is heading that way. Its just so hard and she is so big now, its hard to hold her off me without hurting her, Im so frightened of hurting her.

I will phone the social worker tomorrow and ask her advice.

She is just becoming so 'unlookerafterable' and wont brush her teeth or wash or wear sanitary towels when menstruating, its such a nightmare and so difficult. She battles over every little thing and its so wearing having that level of violence and stress in the house

Ok... Just make sure you hide your 8-year-old and that she never even enters into the conversation.

(sorry, I have a very low opinion of social workers, and I've just read in recent posts about social workers in the UK that make US social workers look like saints)

Do the teachers at the school know that you are aspergers? If so you could explain that you are having trouble understanding them, and ask them for really clear explanations about what/how many of them it takes to "throw her" into the quiet room, for instance, and what they do about her damaging/destroying things.

If you are using her bedroom as the "quiet room" at home perhaps you need to take everything out of it except her bed, some pens and pencils and paper, or other "self-expression" tools, and things which it doesn't matter to you personally if they're destroyed, and explain to her that you can't afford to replace them.

I thought Janissy made some very good points. The teachers at the school must have some way of a) restraining her without hurting her, and b) some way of restraining her/imposing/enforcing exclusion periods without her hurting them. You need to know what exactly it is that they do.

Even if the school doesn't seem to have found a way to avoid or prevent her melting down there, it sounds as if they have found a way to "handle"/restrain her when in meltdown, such that she is confined to a quiet room without anyone being hurt ... or are people getting hurt? What do they do to her/how do they "hold" her in order to make her go to the quiet room for instance? ... There may be a reason for their euphemisms.

If they do have a non-violent technique you need to know what it is. If it is simply that there are more of them to "hold" or restrain her, ( ie. they have found that they need more than one person ), then you have grounds for asking for support at home with her.

It sounds as if at the very least you need some sort of training and support in "non-violent" or non-injurious restraint procedures.

I can only barely imagine what this is like for you. It sounds like a nightmare. ...

Perhaps you need to structure the time that she spends *out* of her room, in the living room etc, with you and her younger sibling, and significantly reduce the amount of time that she spends with you.

ie. impose a non-negotiable or at least reliably consistent "timetable" of frequent and/or lengthy quiet/solitary times, and make "communal"/family together time more organised, for specific activities like eating or shopping or watching one TV programe together, or whatever. Perhaps she needs the "quiet time" but doesn't understand enough to give it to herself yet, so needs you to provide the framework. Perhaps she is dying for more time alone, but doesn't know how to, or is afraid to, take it without help from you. Maybe she needs you to help her reframe quiet time, because it's possible that she unconsciously knows that she needs it desperately, but believes that the only way to get it is by destructive behaviour ( perhaps she thinks that quiet/solitary time is a "bad" thing, something which no self-respecting person wants or needs ... ) ?

NB. I am not suggesting that her meltdowns are manipulation, simply that if she believes that quiet/solitary time is a sign of, and/or response to, sickness or badness then she may simply have learned a sort of reflex set of reactions such that when she needs it she cracks up/freaks out.

Maybe if you can reframe it for her, ( by imposing it like food thats good for her! :lol ), as something precious/valuable etc for many perfectly ok people ( artists, writers, etc ), a positive need that she can begin "looking out for", then you could perhaps talk with her about a simple mechanism for her to express her need for it, a "word/gesture/object" which she could use/wave when feeling the need, rather than getting angrier and angrier.

I wish you all the best.

PS. Maybe she's almost "starving" for downtime, hours and hours of it.
.

Here is my story, maybe it will help you.

My son has had rages since he was a toddler. He would scream for no apparent reason. No matter what I did, it didn't help him. Discipline didn't work because there was seemingly no cause to the screaming. When he was young it would only last about 30 min, maybe once every day or other day. Then he got a bit older, around 5 yo. It started to make a little more sense at that point - he had major sensory issues. His episodes would revolve around pants/socks/shoes, etc... At that time I didn't know what a 'sensory issue' was and he was still undiagnosed. I did accomodate him as much as possible, but the episodes were still daily.

Then he got to be 8 yo. The rages were still triggered by sensory issues but would escalate within minutes to HOURS of screaming, with no verbalizations. I mean HOURS. This was only a few days a week. Then he turned 9 yo. The rages became progressively more violent and verbal. He started hitting himself. Then he started hitting me, throwing big stuff at me, breaking stuff, etc, even in public. He was uncontrollable. He would literally rage like this for over 20 hours (no joke...TWENTY HOURS) a week at home. He talked of wanting to be dead, he can't control it, he can't live like this, why is he so messed up, what is wrong with him, etc...

He was first diagnosed with 'Mood Disorder NOS', possibly bipolar. This is before any ASD diagnosis.

The doc told me that when he is in a rage, if it lasted for more than an hour, I am to call an ambulance or take him to the ER if I can get him there safety. I didn't listen to his advice until one day I just gave up and took him to the ER.

Within 30 min of being in the ER, they said he should be tested for ASD and referred me to a neuropsych. They hit it right on in 30 min when his prev doc didn't hit it after a year of seeing him.

He was so violent towards himself and others that I had no choice but to medicate him. He is now on 3.5mg of Abilify. He is diagnosed with PDD-NOS and Mood Disorder NOS.

During his very last rage, the day before he started his full dose of medication, he pulled a knife on me after waking up at 2am because he thought his glasses might be dirty. He has not had a single rage since starting 2mg of Abilify (now on 3.5mg).

He is doing much better. We have time together now and we are not exhausted. I am not big on medicating children, but in this case it was my only choice to keep us safe. I strongly believe I made the right decision.

Two pieces of advice that I received during this process were that if the rage lasts over an hour, call an ambulance or go to the ER or call your state child mental health hotline. They may or may not have this hotline in your state. You call them during the rage, they will come out immediately to do an assessment.

I hope things get better. I know it is really really hard to do this, but keep in mind that she is in much more pain and more miserable and distressed than you are. You are dealing with it but she is living it.