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Chronos
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12 Nov 2010, 6:06 am

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind people that the average IQ is around 100, and a VIQ of 108 is not below average.

Nor is it unusual for a child to have trouble reading in 1st grade. I picked up reading quickly in Kindergarten, but I still witnessed a lot of my classmates struggling into 3rd grade.

So to iamsupermom, perhaps it seems that he has an impairment in this area because you are comparing him to your other children, who are above average in this area, when in reality, his abilities in this area are more typical of your average 1st grader.

There's no harm in getting him additional help with reading though.



jat
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12 Nov 2010, 7:57 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
jat wrote:
When school says that having ASD is not, in and of itself, a basis for having an IEP, they are, theoretically correct.


Actually, we were told that it is an automatic qualifier, and we are in CA. It is on "the list," so to speak. Anything not on "the list" and we would have to show a negative impact on the education; because it was ASD, we did not have to. At least, that is how our district interpreted things.

That's fabulous! It's another one of those things that's very much specific to the particular location. NY also has automatic eligibility for certain services for children with certain diagnoses; PA does not. The federal law does not require it, so those designations are strictly state/local.



jat
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12 Nov 2010, 8:14 am

Chronos wrote:
I'd like to take this opportunity to remind people that the average IQ is around 100, and a VIQ of 108 is not below average.

Nor is it unusual for a child to have trouble reading in 1st grade. I picked up reading quickly in Kindergarten, but I still witnessed a lot of my classmates struggling into 3rd grade.

So to iamsupermom, perhaps it seems that he has an impairment in this area because you are comparing him to your other children, who are above average in this area, when in reality, his abilities in this area are more typical of your average 1st grader.

There's no harm in getting him additional help with reading though.


Chronos,

While average IQ is indeed 100, when there is a "scatter," or difference in scores, of the type that is being discussed here - over 30 points - it can cause significant difficulties for the person involved, no matter how high the lower score is. The problem is not that the score is low; the problem is the discrepancy between the two scores. It can be like trying to run a train that is designed to travel at 500 miles an hour on tracks that can't handle more than 50 mph.

The "wait and see" approach when a child is struggling in reading has been shown to lead to under-identification of reading problems in many children. When schools wait to intervene until 3rd grade, children have lost, sometimes irretrievably, precious time that could have been spent teaching them appropriately. While the vast majority of children can learn to read regardless of what teaching approach is used, for those children who require a particular teaching methodology, they NEED the specific methodology. Waiting, for them, simply wastes time that could be spent teaching them. If children spend the first years of school watching their classmates learning, and they aren't able to learn, they feel stupid, their self-confidence falls, and it can have long-lasting devastating effects on them.



Chronos
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12 Nov 2010, 3:26 pm

jat wrote:
Chronos wrote:
I'd like to take this opportunity to remind people that the average IQ is around 100, and a VIQ of 108 is not below average.

Nor is it unusual for a child to have trouble reading in 1st grade. I picked up reading quickly in Kindergarten, but I still witnessed a lot of my classmates struggling into 3rd grade.

So to iamsupermom, perhaps it seems that he has an impairment in this area because you are comparing him to your other children, who are above average in this area, when in reality, his abilities in this area are more typical of your average 1st grader.

There's no harm in getting him additional help with reading though.


Chronos,

While average IQ is indeed 100, when there is a "scatter," or difference in scores, of the type that is being discussed here - over 30 points - it can cause significant difficulties for the person involved, no matter how high the lower score is. The problem is not that the score is low; the problem is the discrepancy between the two scores. It can be like trying to run a train that is designed to travel at 500 miles an hour on tracks that can't handle more than 50 mph.

The "wait and see" approach when a child is struggling in reading has been shown to lead to under-identification of reading problems in many children. When schools wait to intervene until 3rd grade, children have lost, sometimes irretrievably, precious time that could have been spent teaching them appropriately. While the vast majority of children can learn to read regardless of what teaching approach is used, for those children who require a particular teaching methodology, they NEED the specific methodology. Waiting, for them, simply wastes time that could be spent teaching them. If children spend the first years of school watching their classmates learning, and they aren't able to learn, they feel stupid, their self-confidence falls, and it can have long-lasting devastating effects on them.


If you have a train that can travel 500mph on tracks that can only handle 50mph, that is usually something you are stuck with for life. I know this because I have similar discrepancies.

I get around this with a calculator.

However I did not suggest a wait and see approach. I said it would not hurt in getting the child additional help.



iamSuperMom
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12 Nov 2010, 4:10 pm

Chronos wrote:
I'd like to take this opportunity to remind people that the average IQ is around 100, and a VIQ of 108 is not below average.

Nor is it unusual for a child to have trouble reading in 1st grade. I picked up reading quickly in Kindergarten, but I still witnessed a lot of my classmates struggling into 3rd grade.

So to iamsupermom, perhaps it seems that he has an impairment in this area because you are comparing him to your other children, who are above average in this area, when in reality, his abilities in this area are more typical of your average 1st grader.

There's no harm in getting him additional help with reading though.


I am looking just at his scores, and his inability to memorize even after hundreds if not thousands of repetition, i.e. NickJR, or PBSKids. He stumbles over every word as if he is reading it for the first time, his oral ability is that of a 15 year old.

His reading ability doesn't match his IQ... which regardless of the "number" achievement is supposed to have ups and downs but stay around the same number of ability. A difference of more than -22 points between any WIAT or WISC (etc) is a major issue.

He is not the average 1st grader. And comparing him to an average 1st grader is as much as a disservice as my comparing him to his brothers and sisters(I assume that's what you meant by stating it above). And I shouldn't have but it is secondary to the fact he has been exposed to prolific readers (I tend to go through books like water, and his siblings are always reading.) and has had access to books with his hyper-focus interests in mind.

I even suggested to his teacher to make blocks with parts of words or while words to help him, as he compulsively stacks everything he can get his hands on. I figured he could enjoy stacking and try to make sentences.

When I show him the word "nose" he sounds it out, when I ask him to find a word that rhymes with "nose" without the written word of it showing he in his mind rearranges the word and said "ones" said like ohh-ns. This to me screams of a problem with actually reading written word.



DW_a_mom
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12 Nov 2010, 5:11 pm

I'm going to make a clumsy effort to pull all this reading discussion together: whether or not there is reason to worry depends on the unique child. My son wasn't reading in first grade, but was doing enough for me to understand what the road blocks were, and get a solid sense that this was his developmental time line. He had some tracking problems, and some visual problems, but mostly he had a patience problem, because learning to read was hard work that meant going through books he found boring content wise (he wanted to read Harry Potter, which I was reading to him). For a child like that, I tell parents not to worry. I know I got really worried when it wasn't kicking in by third grade, but I forced myself not to, because the same signs were there. In that situation, the classic advice is to keep reading to the child, keep encouraging him, and he'll catch up. My son rocketed on the reading between 3rd and 4th grade; he did more than catch up; he zoomed past the class. Some of this may be at play with the OP's son because, like mine, his interest level and verbal level is so far far above what he can read by himself.

It does sound like the OP is seeing a little more, however, that has her concerned. In that case, further investigation and testing is warranted. As a parent, sometimes we need someone to tell us, "that is within the range of normal development" because there is the chance you'll hear "that should be looked into," instead. My son had some real tracking issues with board to paper that the school discovered and worked with him on. I would never have figured that out; it was too easy for me to assume that his issues with copying were the same as with writing, but it turns out they weren't.

I think all parents need to constantly check themselves on the pressure for rapid education and development, but once that pushy instinct has been put into check, if there is still something nagging, you may have something.


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iamSuperMom
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12 Nov 2010, 8:03 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
I'm going to make a clumsy effort to pull all this reading discussion together: whether or not there is reason to worry depends on the unique child. My son wasn't reading in first grade, but was doing enough for me to understand what the road blocks were, and get a solid sense that this was his developmental time line. He had some tracking problems, and some visual problems, but mostly he had a patience problem, because learning to read was hard work that meant going through books he found boring content wise (he wanted to read Harry Potter, which I was reading to him). For a child like that, I tell parents not to worry. I know I got really worried when it wasn't kicking in by third grade, but I forced myself not to, because the same signs were there. In that situation, the classic advice is to keep reading to the child, keep encouraging him, and he'll catch up. My son rocketed on the reading between 3rd and 4th grade; he did more than catch up; he zoomed past the class. Some of this may be at play with the OP's son because, like mine, his interest level and verbal level is so far far above what he can read by himself.

It does sound like the OP is seeing a little more, however, that has her concerned. In that case, further investigation and testing is warranted. As a parent, sometimes we need someone to tell us, "that is within the range of normal development" because there is the chance you'll hear "that should be looked into," instead. My son had some real tracking issues with board to paper that the school discovered and worked with him on. I would never have figured that out; it was too easy for me to assume that his issues with copying were the same as with writing, but it turns out they weren't.

I think all parents need to constantly check themselves on the pressure for rapid education and development, but once that pushy instinct has been put into check, if there is still something nagging, you may have something.


I figured he'd pick it up rather quickly once he was given the formal tools in Kinder, but when he asked me last week to spell "NickJR" for him, I found myself starting to say to him "you should know this by now since you have been playing on it for years." I was like say what? Why hasn't this kid, with a grasp of infinity, memorized it? Then we had a surprise IEP meeting during his teacher-parent conference. She stated that at the beginning of the year he refused to even put pencil to paper. I was like what? I said he was always drawing and spelling his name (after I wrote it for him) over and over again. She then mentioned that at the beginning of the year he only knew 1 letter "sound", I was floored because he says words like teleportation and uses it appropriately. He can watch a history show and then come and repeat it back to me almost word by word. With his eloquent command of the oral language... why is this kid who thirsts for information not able to put the words he sounds out back together again?

I found an excerpt from a book(Handbook of Child Psychology: Child psychology in practice By William Damon, Richard M. Lerner p.435), although I am not sure I am allowed to post URLs. Basically it stated that a low PIQ score warrants a close look for a reading disability. That a severely low PIQ score matters even more than the IQ. That if there is a low PIQ score that indicates more of a genetic dyslexia vs. a child who is more easily re-mediated and only has low achievement scores.



Marcia
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12 Nov 2010, 9:16 pm

I have a friend who has a son with Asperger's, and a daughter with dyspraxia and dyslexia. This little girl is now in Primary 5 and really struggles with writing and spelling. She is very well spoken, with an excellent vocabulary and is bi-lingual in English and Spanish. She was in her third year of school before she knew her alphabet and only learned it because her mother tried getting her to tap it out on her arm as she went through the letters. It seems that she has to make some kind of physical movement to learn letters and spelling. She is still being assessed.

The school kept saying that she was lazy/unintelligent/not trying hard enough and had effectively written her off, until her violin teacher mentioned how pleased they must be to have such a bright little girl in the school! The teachers were incredulous, but they listened to the violin teacher saying how quickly she had learned to read music and play the violin. Then, and only then, did they start to think seriously about what might be causing her difficulties.



azurecrayon
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14 Nov 2010, 1:06 am

i had forgotten that i just got some books in last week that i bought on ebay, and one of them is "Special Educator's Complete Guide to 109 Diagnostic Tests". i looked in it tonight, it has an entire section on the Wechsler tests, including some diagnostic patterns based on the test results.

diagnostic pattern 6 is "Language Impaired", and lists difficulties in:
-receptive or expressive language abilities
-labeling
-naming
-retrieving
-remembering
-expressing ideas and concepts.

one key to this diagnostic pattern is Verbal/Performance Scatter, which is a 15 point or higher difference in PIQ and VIQ. the VIQ subtests are auditory channel input and vocal output, where the PIQ subtests are visual input and vocal output, and visual input and motoric output. so the scatter with higher PIQ shows problems in the auditory input to vocal output areas, aka language.

not sure this will give you any info or not, and it doesnt suggest specific asds for the patterns, but it may give you some ideas on difficulty areas to look into, or a source to learn more about diagnostic testing.


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Neurotypically confused.
partner to: D - 40 yrs med dx classic autism
mother to 3 sons:
K - 6 yrs med/school dx classic autism
C - 8 yrs NT
N - 15 yrs school dx AS