Parents, I'm trying to help

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This could be describing me, except that I prefer spending a long time in the bath to showering (both are good though). Also, I've always found it comforting to sit in isolation on a beach and listen to the sound of the sea.

The fascination with water is likely a comfort thing, though it's more difficult for a young aspie to understand the ramifications of running up a huge bill or being wasteful with water. I remember that money was always something of a mystery until I had to support myself financially as an adult.



And children lack the communication skills to verbalise or explain this after the event, which can lead to another bout of frustrated confusion if interrogated. As an adult with experience, self-knowledge and better understanding of my condition I can explain to my partner (or parent) what it feels like (to a degree) when I'm overloaded. Even as a teenager I lacked this ability.

I think the important thing when a child with an ASD has overload issues leading to violent or hyper-emotional behaviour is not to admonish them for their behaviour. It's virtually impossible to control your reactions when in a state of panic, confusion or even anger when overloaded. If, for example, your AS child is screaming to 'leave me alone', that's probably the best thing to do, even if it goes against the nurturing instinct to try to make them feel better by giving them a hug.

The question here with william is does he have the control.. recently when he beat me and then started punching the windows of my van i pulled out my phone and said if you dont stop i'm calling the police what you just did was assault and he stopped. I would think this shows a degree of control?? I asked him couple days later if he could explain what was going on in his mind he said he had no control and i said i find that hard to believe cause you stopped.... anyway he said he stopped because he was afraid they would come and get him and i asked does that mean i have to make you afraid for you not to hit me??

these are the things that just really have me frustrated with all this. Loss of his computer doesn't seem enough, loss of the DS loss of playing with his friend, time out, combo of all that ... the only thing that seems to stop it is a fear of going to a hospital or the police coming and then i spend the next few days cring because I feel like i've verbally assaulted him with a treat of one or the two of those options. And fear of these things isn't somthing that sticks with him it has to be repeated while he's attacking me.

This is a really good example, and an excellent question, which I'll try to answer to the best of my ability.

First a caveat, unlike William, I've never reacted violently towards someone because of a meltdown (though I have punched walls and broken other inanimate objects). Despite the torrent of emotional confusion, I'm fundamentally aware that physically assaulting someone is wrong. But this isn't to say that I'm morally superior to William, or that I have 'more control' over my actions. I've screamed and shouted and pushed someone (gently but firmly) away from me, cried uncontrollably or curled up into a ball during meltdowns - sometimes all in the same episode.

If I was in William's position and you stated "I'm going to call the police" I would interpret your words literally, no matter how extreme the emotional situation, and be shocked that you believed my actions warranted such a response. Shock can end a meltdown - as can fear of reprisal - as it can trigger self-awareness which is lost in the moment when you're out of control.

That said, there's a difference between 'out of control' and 'tantrum', which I imagine is difficult to distinguish in a child with AS.

Some things that stand out from your post. You've mentioned that you told him "that's hard to believe". Is there a lot of confrontation in your relationship, and do you often question the truth of his statements?



From the perspective of someone with AS, confiscating his computer, etc, probably isn't a good strategy when dealing with misbehaviour. My love of computers has always been a strong obsession for me, and spending solitary time with a game or two remains a viable strategy for calming my anxiety and helping me focus my thoughts and feelings now that I've reached adulthood. If that had been taken away from me as a form of punishment, I'm certain my behaviour would worsen rather than improve.

You certainly shouldn't feel guilty for threatening to call the police. He needs to learn that there are legal, as well as moral implications to his actions, and that there's usually (though not always) a direct link between the two.

I'm sorry if you've mentioned this already, but how old is William?

william is 10. Thank you for the explaination and to a certain degree I get what your saying The shock stopping it does make complete sense. He also breaks chairs and puts holes in walls those i dont worry so much about I just dont buy anything nice anymore lol.. And I have from the time he's been very young made sure he understood it's perfectly normal to be angry just not ok to hit people.

No our conversations aren't confrontational. The conversation I discribed took place simply as two people sitting at the table talking to each other. We were trying to come up with somthing that would help because he does realize he hurt me and doesn't want to hurt me and on my side I love him but cannot let him continue hurting me or my daughter. I can't imagine accidentally killing his sister would be somthing he'd ever recover from. And at the same time we were going over what happened and how we could have handled it differently.

this conversation was respectful and kind on both sides:) no stern tones or threats or anything like that just two people talking. I don't question his truthfulness that's why I have these talks with him so his voice is heard.

When i said 'I find it hard to believe you have no control' it was formed more as a question to him asking if you have no control how did you control yourself to avoid the police which he seemed to understand because he explained it to me saying because he was scared. I dont want him to be scared but i also dont want him to pysically hurt us or a few years from now to be in and out of jail because of the hitting.

It was literal i had the phone in my hand ready to dial. Untill now i have avoided calling because altho the violence needs to stop; in the back of my mind I have been afraid that if they did in fact get called he'd end up in the back of a car cuffed then in the jail for at least an hour or hauled off to a hospital.. i've been afraid that the situation itself would cause so much trauma that he might not recover from it and that if he did he would regress.

I was assured that the police in this community are very sympathetic to the situation and that there is another family that has had to call.. all they do apparently are just talk sternly to the child explaining the law and the conciquences.. idk i'm still skeptical.

with him it's easy to see the difference in the tantrum/melt but i think only because i've been dealing with it for so very long.. to the casual observer yes it would simply appear to be a tantrum gone to the extreme. Also just to clarify I do realize that kids do occationally smack their playmate or their sister or whatever for this he does get in trouble but it's not the end of the world. This attacking i'm talking about is extreme and yes quite violent and could potentially seriously hurt someone.

also the computer .. we arn't talking about for good or anything he looses it for a day if it's somthing serious and i'm working with his behavioralist to streamline this so maybe it's 15 min or half hour or somthing so that it will be more concrete. sortof a reward/conciquence based idea if that makes any sense.. they get rewards for good behavior, loss of privleges for naughty behavior they also still get time outs.

I did tell him a while ago that if he attacks us i will be calling from now on he simply said can you remind me. i asked you mean when you get upset and come at us he said yes. so maybe progress???

Forgive me if I cherry pick from your post, as it's quite long and many things in there can simply be responded to with the words "well done", as it sounds like you have a good understanding and relationship with William.

Do you have any idea what triggers the violent behaviour, or is it a lack of anything specific? I'm wondering what else you've done to address it, and whether it's more likely to happen in certain situations, environments, times, company, etc.



Have you made your fears known to him? At 10 years old he should be capable of understanding death to some extent, even just as a personal loss. Telling him how scared you are might frighten him in a very healthy way, assuming that he's able to understand.



Kudos for that. At 10 years old my mother treated me more like a young adult than a child. I used to resent when other adults didn't show the same courtesy and spoke down to me, or over my head, especially as I progressed into my teens.



Thanks for answering that one. To me his response seems perfectly acceptable, but I know all too well how it might seem illogical or inconsistent to you. I can confirm that he's most likely telling you exactly how it felt for him.



I'm sure it was, but I'd advise you to never call the police to deal with him unless he does something seriously harmful. If he did end up being arrested by an over-zealous officer then he'd likely view it as a betrayal for a long time afterwards.

Still, if the threat of calling acts as a deterrent, by all means tell him that's what you're going to do. I'd also tell him, that you're frightened that he'll go too far one day and you'll have no choice but to get the police involved. Make him aware that there's a real possibility that he'd be taken away from you if he hurts someone.



Yeah, the police are hardly infallible.



Going back to what I said earlier, it might be time to start recognising him as a developing young person rather than as an adult, along with punishments/rewards that are more suited to an older child.

A couple of things that are in my mind at the moment. Does he have a private space at all? His own room or 'playroom' where he can spend time alone, unsupervised and with a door he can close to ensure his privacy? What about 'grown up' possessions like a cd player/radio (especially if he shows an interest in music). Does he have a computer of his own and a place to use it in solitude, or do you share a family one?

At 10 years old I would shut myself in my bedroom if I felt overwhelmed, power up my computer (a sinclair spectrum as I grew up in the 80's) and play games while listening to music I liked on an old cassette player my mother gave me.

It was especially helpful at the end of a school day to have a sanctuary I could go to and be away from people for a while.

Something else you might consider is get him in the kitchen and do some baking. Might sound a bit crazy, but preparing a meal is a very adult responsibility, and I'm sure you would have fun making a cake or some scones together from scratch - even if the end product is an inedible disaster.



Quite possibly so. From an aspie perspective, if I ask someone for help to deal with a particular problem, I'm much more likely to respond than if someone else is making suggestions. That seems to be the trend of aspie stubbornness. The ideas have to come from within, even if the motivation comes from outside.

Just remember it isn't bullet-proof. If he fails to respond to your picking up the phone, don't give him a hard time for not remembering.

I have the same problem with my daughter. When she was angry at me once she threw the cat down the stairs. She will hit and kick me sometimes. She is verbally abusive constantly. I am trying to teach me respect especially with adults. I have tried every punishment and positive reinforcement and have threatened spankings as I received. I did smack her with she was 4 and kicked my son when he was a baby. It was an accident but I reacted before thinking. The look on her face of complete shock and distrust made me break down a cry. I hugged her and said I was sorry for a long time. I don't ever want to spank her even if I was in control. But I do tell her that is what other parents do. I have threatened calling the police as well. I have tried to make it very clear that the school would call the police if she hit at school. She seems to have more control at school and has never hit anyone. But at home she hits her brother and he hits her. Sometimes she lays on top of him and does not seem to understand that she can really hurt him. She has done things like wrap a string around her brother's neck or the cats. She will scream she is going to put her finger in the outlet or run away. When she slams the door to her room and says she is going to kill herself I get so scared. I put her in therapy a few months ago which seems to help although she does not talk about her feelings much. Funny her therapist thinks she is doing great because she is so happy to have someone listen to her talk about her interests. She is a marriage and family therapist because I could not find anyone with autism experience covered under my insurance.

Maybe I could suggest getting William into swimming lessons? Here are my reasons:

1. Swimming takes place in the water. Good for Aspies.

2. Swimming does not require a whole lot of coordination (unlike basketball, football, etc) which Aspies don't usually have in spades.

3. Swimming or even water horseplay takes a lot out of you. If you get him down to the pool on a regular basis, he may have a very positive outlet for his energy.

this one is really hard to nail down... it happens more often on the day or two after returning from his dads house
situations seem to be nothing specific more just if he feels it's unfair.. example: he'd taken the cushions off the sofa to make a fort i asked him to put them back he could make a fort in his room but the sofa was not a jungle gym.. he did not do it so his sister started to (attempt to keep him from getting in trouble) he attacked her for it had her shoved up against the sofa pounding her with fists one after another untill i was able to get him off her... i put him in time out and went to do it myself he charged at me fists flying i was able to get him under control this time.. next nite was the nite he attacked me at the store was over a truck he couldn't have.




yes i've talked to him about this numerous times.


with this i do have my moments we're all human and there are times i loose it hahaha just not physically


I'm not sure what you mean here... up till this year it's been simple times outs now the addition of priveleges (computer, nintendo ds, tv, ect) and this was only because time outs weren't as effective needed to add things that he wouldn't want to loose...I'm not really sure what else you could do aside from these things?? they arn't tho treated like adults lol or even talked to like adults they're just talked to at the level their able to understand me. his sister is 8 they seem to be at about the same level.



He had his own room but wanted to share with his sister because he feels safter with her there (seperate beds of course) their playroom is beside the bedroom. each has their own Tv, their own computers each of them has their own desk side by side with the computers.. He has nindendo DS and an old ninteno he fixed that they play mario on. They have a boombox in the bedroom as well (she's the music lover) lol They each have tons of toys both inside and out. aside from making them pick up and putting them to bed i dont go in their playroom or bedroom it's their domain. His workers when they are here hang with him but if he asks for space they give it.


we do this ..sometimes he'll participate sometimes not, we dont make from scratch lol but we make brownies and cookies and pizza and stuff ... also both kids have helped cook dinner.. they're very independant and pop their own waffles and stuff in for breakfast if they want, can use the microwave really well. .. doesn't sound crazy at all it's very good bonding for any parent and child and your right probably very good practice for being independant later.



this is very much like him yes.. when we made the house rules i sat down at the table and asked the kids what they thought the rules should be lol... i did give suggestions along the way but was them who told we what they should be

Thank you again for all this it really is very helpful

I have tried with the swimming but he's afraid. in the summer we go to the beach a lot the water isn't very deep and they have a slide. and in the winter we go to the ymca pool but he wont play independantly in the water unless he's got a life jacket on.? i would love to figure out a way to get him over this particular fear he'd probably like swimming once he got past it. He does golf with his dad and he and his sister have a go cart they do that and we also go biking a lot in the summer.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, tskin. I'll get back to you with a response, but I have to [cringe] go out for a bit.

It seems to me like you're doing all the right things, but you mention the behaviour is more common after he's visited his dad, and that's something I'm not going to touch as I think it might be inappropriate. I don't know how much contact you have with his father, or how amicable things are between you.

Before I run off, one of the things I picked up on was the bit about his sister trying to correct his behaviour by intervening. Whatever her intentions are, he's almost certain to feel like he's being ganged up on if he's trying to discuss why what he's doing is wrong; 'I just made a fort with some cushions, it isn't hurting anyone, why would that be considered bad behaviour?'; and that he's being undermined by her actions.

That could easily be a trigger, especially if he's going through a transitionary mood between his father's place and yours.

I must go now, but you can bet I'll be musing over this while I'm out.

oh no she didn't correct him..i told him to do somthing and he ignored me and didn't she simply went and started to do it for him. she's younger than him but has always protected him the reason it was bad.. it wasn't bad i just dont let them use the furniture as a jungle gym he's already destroyed 2 sofa's all the dining room chairs and a bunk bed... they can tear apart the bedroom/playroom just not the living room furniture

their dad we get along fine still friends no anger in front of the kids .. if we go to dinner we invite him if the kids want if i take them to the water park and they want him to go we invite him. he is verbally agressive and i do know there isn't really structure, routine, expectation at his house more a free for all or the day or two spent on the computer (he means well) thing is i have no control over that situation or what happens when there but i did ask william if somthing had happened at dads to upset him while he was slowly escalating all week he said no. i asked him if anything went on at school he said no.

i'm off for a while too kids want crafts hahahaa

I understand that from your, and her perspective, what she was doing was perfectly reasonable. What I mean to say is that it's quite likely that he's interpreted her actions as undermining him, or siding with you.

The thought process is something like:

'I'm having fun, I'm in a castle/fort fighting off the bad guys.'

- mom enters

'Why does she want me to stop doing this? I'm confused. I don't understand what I'm doing wrong. Never mind, here comes another bad guy, bet I can take him down with one shot from my rocket launcher. BAM! Take that bad guy...'

- sis enters

'Hah! Right in the face... wait, what? What are you doing? No! Stop! You're destroying my fort! Why are you doing this? It's not fair! Why does everyone want to destroy my fort? I was happy and you're taking it away from me! Why isn't someone on my side here? This is unjust! I don't know how to deal with this! I'm so confused and angry, and I feel let down!'

After he's calmed down, he might be able to pinpoint some or all of the above feelings and thoughts, or possibly he won't be able to verbalise any of them. What's certain is that in this situation he'd have felt outraged that his sister would choose to act in a way that, from his perspective, was completely against him. If she is very protective, she could be unintentionally provoking him at times when he needs to be in his 'fortress of solitude' - which can be any defined 'territory' that constitutes his aspie no-go zone.



I went through a phase where I liked to climb and jump on things, and no amount of telling off or punishment deterred me. It's something he'll grow out of eventually - hopefully before you lose any more furniture.

The aggression remains a problem that needs to be solved, and I hope my perspective helps. I can't put myself exactly in his shoes, obviously, but I'm trying to draw on my own experiences to at least help bridge the gap in understanding.



The part I've put in bold is what I expected (though I have to admit that I assumed you probably had a good relationship with their father too). I think that there's definitely a link between having two conflicting regimes in each household and his behaviour as he has to adapt to a stricter set of rules.

The only thing that I can suggest may help is that you speak with their father and try to get him to agree to working out some common rules that need to apply in both homes. Consistent parenting from both of you could help create a smoother transition from one place to the other. Of course, this all depends on how good your relationship is with him - which you tell me is good - and whether he's willing to work with you for the good of William and his sister.



Excellent! Hope you had fun.

ok so i called him in here read him what you'd written first explaining i'd told someone what happened and this was his idea of how you might have been feeling and thinking so i'll read it and you tell me if it's close to how you felt.....

when i finished he said "yes" and he sorta looked really surprised lol i said 'ok then' and off he went he seemed surprised someone got it so thank you for that.. now the question would become how to help him understand the rule about the furniture?

Right now he's drawing me a diagram of somthing i could build in his room that would serve the same thing that the sofa was apparently he just liked that he could go behind the sofa under the cushions like hiding. hmm interesting can't wait to see the diagram hopefully somthing i can build (you should see the sorry lil fort i attempted outside hahaha not pretty!! !



You did hit the nail on the head with the last one and it's fantastic to be able to see it from his perspective!! Thank you



I have said for a long time now that i thought it must be a really hard transition going from chaos to structure in a day but unfortunately there is little hope for this particular situation unless it's in the form of making the first day back softer or somthing?

I can talk to his dad as long as I agree with him and dont expect anything from him (does that make sense lol) He is very disorganized , very set in his ways and quite stubborn it makes perfect sense to explain how it benifits the kids to have limits and structure but because he did not come up with the idea he wont budge instead gets angry and the verbal stuff I used to have to hear married starts again. He does love the kids very very much just doesn't seem to grasp the reason for the rules or structure and stuff. could be that it's hard for him to do the difficult aspects of parenting? not really sure here but i've tried till i'm blue in the face and he wont budge.

His mother also lives there and has dementia this also factors in. The tools are there for him to have some help with the structure (same people who come to our house have offered to do shifts at his but he refuses). During the summer it's not quite as bad as they spend a lot of their time fishing or swimming, going to monster truck rallies and tractor shows things like that they're busier so altho still no real structure it's not quite as noticable lol.

Yes they had a blast I think we have ribbons coming out the windows now and i'm sure there will be paint everywhere!! lol they painted animal magnets

I'm genuinely happy to be of assistance. I know only too well how it feels to be misunderstood - something which I still have issue with today, despite being older and 'wiser' (hah!). The difference is that, as an adult, I can choose not to be around people who simply can't understand, or who don't attempt to.



Does he have any favourite toys or gadgets that he doesn't like people touching or playing with? If you compare the sofa to the toy, you might be able to breakthrough, especially if he has a possession that has to be used/played with a certain way.

"My sofa is just like your toy. I don't mind if people sit on it, but when people take it apart they're not using it properly and it hurts me."

That sentiment in words you think appropriate could work wonders.



I was lucky enough to have a large playroom in my family home which my siblings rarely ventured into (it eventually became my bedroom as only I used it). There was a sofa and a large table in the room that I turned into a fort. I dragged the sofa so its back was to the door, raided the linen closet for some bedsheets and draped it over the back of the sofa and across the length of the table. I got some cardboard boxes and arranged them along the sides that weren't against the wall.

It was ridiculously flimsy, but it served its purpose well as long as nobody actually tried to invade.

I also used to like sitting under tables that were covered by a tablecloth that hangs to, or near to the floor. I think the main thing is that he's trying to create a space that is basically his, where he's comfortable (low levels of light, muffling of sounds, can't be seen, close environment, solitude).

Even now, as an adult, I typically mark out a seclusion zone,, and really don't like when someone infringes on my privacy. Usually this is an area near my bed where I have a computer desk in the corner of a room, turned so that I cut off a small boxed area with only one entry point, and with access to my music. This space serves as my sanctuary, and it's absolutely imperative that nobody comes in uninvited or I get agitated.



It's genuinely satisfying to try to offer help to someone who is putting as much effort into understanding AS rather than viewing it as a problem that needs to be remedied. It gave me just as much satisfaction to learn that the help was useful. I don't think that thanks are necessary, but thank you very much for the positive feedback.



Anything that makes the transition smoother would help, but I'm not sure how you could compromise your own house rules without breaking the consistency. That might prove more disruptive than anything else.

Alternatively you could have a structured day where you do something on the day he comes back. Preferably something that relates to his interests, though you could do something as simple as having a movie night and order/make snacks. Let him pick the movie (as long as little sis understands why he gets to choose).

That's just one suggestion. You probably know him well enough to think of some of your own. As long as you stuck to the planned activity every week, it might help act as a buffer and make him feel more comfortable.



Absolutely impossible to have more than an inkling, based just on your testimony, but it does seem possible that he could be on the spectrum too. Especially regarding the 'stubbornness'

great idea i've used it for other situations not sure why i didn't think of it this time. perhaps because i dont like the sofa i just dont want to have to replace it haha. well or have to clean up their mess afterward.



I remember doing somthing similar as a child minus the sofa... our whole room was like one giant fort with sheets everywhere i'm not sure how it didn't drive my mother completely nuts. William loves boxes.. we used to take him to the furniture store and get him those giant boxes that the fridge and stoves come in and he'd make lil forts with those problem was that when the boxes would wear out he would not let me throw them out he'd collect them and at some point at least half the room was boxes piled against the wall floor to ceiling anyway the room was being taken over .. he has a lot of trouble letting go of anything. wants to keep all the broken toys, anything made of cardboard, rocks, sticks, paper ect.

his room would resemble what you see on those shows about hoarders lol. He also repeatedly will take pieces of cardboard into the bathtub which I dont understand. So i now avoid cardboard ever coming into the house so i dont have to then take it away:)

this past summer a friend of mine build the two kids a fort outside that's closed in and has walls and stuff he was so so happy with that (hard to play in with winter tho) he just got off the phone with this same friend who is going to build them a fort bed lol we'll see how that goes I guess they'll come some time this week look at his drawing and take measurements


it really does because not everyone takes the time to respond and to offer help or suggestions:) and your welcome



we have done this in the past (not on the day back or anything but movie nites) both kids pick a movie they want and we do popcorn and stuff and they really seem to like it ... Great suggestion for somthing to make the first day back a lil funner. I think maybe i could try to limit the hours that pathways come on that day back as well (these are the people who work with him on the ot,speech and behaviors) somtimes i think it must be so tiring for him to have these people making him do things all the time when he'd rather just play



yes way back in the beginning during all our research and stuff he said he thought he was. He will not get diagnosed he really doesn't care what the name is but he decided when he listened to temple grandin talk about thinking in pictures that he was (that and all the things from his childhood)

Probably because of the function of the sofa. Much easier to compare toys and games to something like a television or microwave. In an aspie mindset though, categories aren't necessarily logical in the way you might expect. For example, if you had a golf ball, a basketball, a watch and a shoe, you'd probably sort them into 'balls' and 'wearable', whereas your son might sort them by colour or size, or possibly even texture or smell.



I've managed to get over my need to hoard objects, though I'm still struggling with my obsessive hoarding of information and mp3s. One of the hardest things I ever had to do was dispose of all the junk I'd collected over the years when I moved out of my mother's house. I'd had some of it for years, including a massive box of marbles I'd collected since childhood.

The cardboard thing could be a sensory thing. Wet cardboard has a very specific feel on your skin - clammy and a little constricting - that he might find comforting.



That sounds brilliant. Any chance your friend can make me a king-sized fortress-bed with cubby-holes and space for a TV?



The Wrong Planet forums are very compartmentalised, by design, so there are probably many other users out there with valuable experience and 'inside knowledge' of the aspie mindset who simply don't read this sub-forum because it's entitled 'Parent's Discussion'. Though, glancing at some of the posts in other sections, in some cases that might be for the best.

I happen to be very interested in ASDs (quite common for aspies, naturally), and especially in relation to my own experiences in childhood. I was diagnosed as an adult, and it's been really interesting reading about children with AS whose behaviours mirror things that I used to do when I was a child. I suppose I have an unusual perspective because I've looked back at my own experiences with fresh understanding over the years since diagnosis, which makes it easier to relate to situations like your son's.

Either way, it really is laudable how much you put into understanding him.



That last part about pathways definitely sounds like a sensible move. After the disruption of changing environments quickly, he'd probably respond well to some downtime from external stimuli or 'work'. Mental and emotional tiredness would definitely contribute to anxiety and aggression.



That's a pity. If he was more interested in understanding the condition he might become better prepared to help with William's needs.

Something that just occurred to me. Tell William that it's his responsibility as a big brother to protect his little sister from being hurt, just like she looks out for him. If it's not too distressing, you can gently tell him that includes protecting her from his anger. There's absolutely nothing wrong with addressing his anger as a separate entity - in fact he'll probably respond well to the metaphorical concept. If you can get it into his head that the anger is a bad thing that he needs to fight, it might help him gain an element of control.

I must bid you adieu now and try for some sleep. I hope you get some positive results from all the effort you're putting in.