What did I do wrong?

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Janissy, I do not logically understand. Why wouldn't this be considered public information? This would be before I went on any job interview. How can one know where the bottom is at without this information? How does everyone else determine this without this information?



I guess I will have too look.



For me, they are a meaningless verbal device. In my opinion, they provide no useful information I can ascertain. I do understand the concept and I am able to use them but I do not understand the reasoning behind them. Janissy, most people do use them as you said so I will have to learn more about them. Dealing in practicality and pragmistism, most people will not understand and more than likely will not change it.

Anyway, what would've been a better way to ask this woman my questions? I'm going to say this to the the parents that have stayed here on wrongplanet. You have all been excellent. I think there may be a common thread with parents who do stay. I may be wrong and I hope I'm not making a hasty generalization but it seems like a lot of the parents are very logical themselves.

I think it's because you were asking something that virtually all NTs intuitively know. So she assumed you weren't serious about asking it.

You never mentioned in that exchange that you were autistic, however, a lot of the issues you were describing are things autistics have a lot more trouble with than NTs. She probably assumed you were NT and therefore didn't realize you might honestly not know some basic things about how employment works.

I was wrong. It actually is considered public information. I found this website that explains organizational charts:

http://www.enotes.com/management-encycl ... onal-chart


It says that many companies will include that information online on their website or in corporate literature. It says many other things about organizational charts too. It's very informative.






You asked, "I've been told to start at the bottom. It would be nice to know in detail exactly where the bottom is at?"

The problem here is that the bottom is a different job in every single field and company. I myself am not entirely sure if you are asking for:

1)a definition of the word "bottom"- which would be "that which is below everything else" and allows for no details

2)examples of entry level jobs

3)what an entry level job would be in your chosen field

4)what is the bottom box on an organizational chart (which differs from chart to chart)

The first question is impossible to give a detailed answer to. There are no details. There is just a definition of the word bottom. And so it seems like a rhetorical question. The other 3 questions require detailed answers but they are answers well beyond what a random blogger can answer because they require either an extensive knowledge of how businesses work or a willingness to google for quite a while. So I'm a little lost here myself. I can't tell you how to better word the question because I don't know exactly what information you are looking for. And I don't even know if a random blogger is the right person to ask.



There is a forum culture here which is a little different from other autism forums. We are a self-selecting group.

Let me attack it from this angle When conservatives or responsibility advocates always preach that a person must start from the bottom what exactly is their definition and the correct usage to the meaning? Do they mean you have to start at the lowest position in the organization or do they mean something else? Entry level jobs require years of experience as well. This can't be the bottom as well.

If they are talking about employment, their definition is "entry level position", the lowest position on the organization or department.





Any given company will have many lowest positions, one in each department. The term "corporate ladder" is not meant to imply that there is one lowest position and one highest position. Companies are hierarchical but not a perfect single file line. They mean start at the lowest position in whatever department you get hired in when you first start out. If you then get promoted and move to another company some time after this promotion, you might be able to get hired in at a higher level.





Entry level jobs don't require years of experience. However, if an employer is interviewing many candidates for the same entry level job, he will pick the one with experience because that means less time training and proof he can do the job. (Just because a job is entry level does not mean everybody who applies is equally able to do it.) If there are no candidates with experience, one without experience will be hired. The prior experience is an employer preference, not a necessity.

Not all companies have entry level jobs with no prerequisite; I think, for instance, some bookstore chains require some college. Many entry-level jobs require a training certificate of some kind (medical jobs, for instance.) It depends entirely on the field and the expectations of the employer - however, those prerequisites are usually spelled out in the job description or ad. In any given open position, as you say, each applicant will be competing against the most qualified applicants, so someone with advanced training, previous experience, or a good employment history will typically be chosen over someone who has none of these qualifications. Employers are driven by their own self-interest when choosing employees.

You touched on this, but it's also expected that someone with experience at a particular job, or with transferable experience or a particular skill set will be able to bypass the entry level job and get one somewhere higher up in the hierarchy. Many CEOs come from outside the company; in fact many people in management do. If you get an entry-level position at McDonald's or Wal-Mart, it is not very likely that you will advance in the company unless you are developing your skills outside of work, getting exemplary reviews, and otherwise making yourself an appealing candidate.

Anyone on the spectrum should also be aware that their status as a person with a disability is protected by the ADA, so if you apply for a job, the employer cannot refuse you because you ask for reasonable accommodation in the workplace. or in the job placement process. If you think this has happened, contact a disability rights lawyer.

Janissy, I did not know this at all. Thank You!! ! This is what I needed to know. I've been trying to figure this answer out for years ever since I've graduated college. So, when I graduated part of what I should've typed in was entry level jobs. You gave me a golden key and now I owe you my gratitude.







This I do understand. It is a two-dimensional tree like hierarchy. What I did not understand was what exactly was the contents of the nodes on the tree especially the bottom leaf nodes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaf_node I've been asking this for years but I couldn't get anyone to answer this not even the ASD psychologists.






Again, it is kind of making sense now. I confirmed this by reading another article. This article mentioned that some people want to start at the higher level of the tree when they do not have the experience for it. Jannisy, thank you, thank you, thank you, you're a life saver. After reading about American Values, talking to a few conservative folks, reading some history about our country and talking to you, and observing behaviors between parents and their kids I am beginning to understand things better. My major problem that has plagued me most of my life is for whatever reason I seem to miss the context to what people say and I have major problems with the usage of definitions. To be honest, once I put sayings and conversations back into the cultural context they do make sense.

For example, a sense of entitlement. Violet_Yoshi and Jimbeux got into an argument a long time ago about his son Billy who had aspergers. This is the conversation that took place. It got really ugly. http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt85074.html I was confused by that phrase as well. I believe the root word of entitlement is entitle. I believe the word entitlement is a noun. Jimbeux is a conservative who believed that we were entitled to nothing. I looked up the definition of entitle and it means

1. Give (someone) a legal right or a just claim to receive or do something.
2. Give (something, esp. a text or work of art) a particular title

It really confused me and I thought it was inconsistent with other beliefs conservatives like taking responsibility. If we were not entitled to anything then how is it possible for anyone to take responsibility if one wasn't entitled to it and we had to earn everything in life.

What it really meant in its context was that a person should not be given everything that they want and their heart's desire. Putting it into its context, I agree with Jimbeux 100% and I do not agree with violet_yoshi at all. By what Jimbeux is saying in that thread he is a good father. By this description, I think violet_yoshi may have a sense of entitlement herself. By what I have read about our american society she needs to lose it and learn the syntax to the sense of gratitude and be greatful for what she does have. I think League_Girl may remember this as well. I do remember League_Girl having some things to say to violet_yoshi as well. League_Girl, this is what your ex-bf may have had as well.

I do remember a aspie guy on here who had to take a personality for a test and he was complaining the test was vague and ambigious. He sent an email to them telling them so and they said that he was not qualified for the job. I do not remember what kfisherx said exactly but I will paraphrase. She was telling him that maybe most people do understand it in the American Cultural context. She told him he needed to humble himself. I was angry with kfisherx then but thinking about it kfisherx is correct. I need to humble myself as well which means if something does not make sense I need to first keep my big mouth shut and don't try to debate and argue it. Second, I need to make sure I am intepreting it in the way it was intended. If I have to ask questions and make sure I ask in a very meek and humble way. I need to come with the attitude that I may be wrong about something or laboring under some false assumption. Third, the person does not have to answer the question and they don't owe me answer. Fourth, if one does answer then be greatful and consider it a blessing that they did answer.

Sorry, I haven't been on the WP site for a while, and didn't answer a couple of questions you asked several posts back.

"Why aren't many people interested or comfortable in debating?

People write blog posts for many different reasons. On a particular day, they might want to express their feelings, share something that happened to them, state their opinions (often to complain or criticize), give information etc. They expect a particular reaction:
If someone expresses feelings or shares news, they want people to acknowledge their feelings and empathize with them. Often the best way to respond is to reflect / echo the feelings. If someone says: "My dog died, it was so unexpected, I don't know what I'm going to do..." you can respond: "That's so sad."
If someone gives information, they want people to thank them for the information, confirm it, add to it, and so on. They probably don't want people to tell them it is false information, so if it is you can respond, "I'm not sure this is true. Here is a link to a source of information I trust."
If someone states opinions, they usually want people to agree with them. Some are open to discussion or debate, but many aren't.
I think the main purpose of communication is to establish and strengthen rapport / relationship, rather than to exchange information.

Why didn't she just say I don't want to talk about this any further and I desire to end this discussion?"
Following the same idea, the woman probably thought your discussion was not strengthening your relationship, so there was no reason to continue discussing. In that case, she had to decide what the most polite as well as effective way was to end the discussion. She chose to avoid making a negative statement such as "I don't want to talk to you any more" or "I am not interested in what you are saying" or "I don't want to help you understand." This way, she felt she was being polite and not hurting your feelings.

Remember that for a lot of NTs it's all about feelings, not facts.

"I need to humble myself as well which means if something does not make sense I need to first keep my big mouth shut and don't try to debate and argue it. Second, I need to make sure I am intepreting it in the way it was intended. If I have to ask questions and make sure I ask in a very meek and humble way. I need to come with the attitude that I may be wrong about something or laboring under some false assumption. Third, the person does not have to answer the question and they don't owe me answer. Fourth, if one does answer then be greatful and consider it a blessing that they did answer."

You are a very wise and compassionate person.
J.

I think I understand and I thank you for giving me this information.



I have come to this conclusion myself. Personally, I you're correct. I have come to conclusion that this is most people's first main focus. Most people consider the relationship and rapport as having higher precedence than the accuracy of information. If this is true, this is a hard pill to swallow.



She has had a loss of a child to SIDS as well. This is the conclusion I have come to. Most people will not be able to answer the questions I have. They would not know about or understand aspergers. I am going to start asking NTs who do know about aspergers and who do understand the issues like the parents here.



I am just learning that. Even NT men say they have problems understanding women. No offense. This is what NT men say they know about NT women.

Excellent quote!
If I can be of any help to you, I'm glad to do it. I teach communications skills to health care professionals (active / reflective listening, offering suggestions rather than advice, supporting without judgment, asking open-ended questions, empathetic confrontation, etc.). You're right, my students (who are mainly NT) have a lot of trouble with it, too. I think the reason I like using these approaches to communication is that I often feel lost in the general chaos of life and like finding rules (much like the autism social rule book on wp) because of my own (undx) AS tendencies.
Also, I'm a language teacher and translator, so I'm trying to learn to communicate in my AS daughter's language as well as trying to help her understand the NT lingua franca.
J.

I did reflective and active listening on azurecrayon and kailumom.
http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/postp3948704 ... 07#3948704

I learned some of this from my anger management counselor. One of the things he told me was for the most part men want to try to fix things and women want to vent their feelings. There are exceptions by the way. The aspie women on here for the most part seem to just want to fix things as well.

Regarding entry-level jobs needing "years of experience," it's worth noting that employers will often describe their ideal candidate in the job postings...sure, they are HOPING to get someone with years of experience but that does not mean it's 100% necessary to do the job. What they really means is "experience preferred."

WreckGar wrote:

That's very true. Getting a job depends on so many things that it is hard to give clear, straightforward advice.

A couple of ways to improve your chances of getting a job in your chosen field are: 1) ask to "job shadow" someone who works in the field (This usually works best if you have education in the field and have moved into a new area; you can say you want to see what the job is like in this particular company or area) 2) offer to do an unpaid internship to acquire experience 3) take "upgrading" courses in the subject area (even if you've already taken the same subject, in-person courses give you a chance to meet others hoping to work in the field and the instructor might have some suggestions 4) go to an employment centre and see if they have ideas about how to enter the field and 5) send your resumé to all the companies in your area, whether or not they are hiring.

J.

I said this to her as well.

This is what I was led to believe when I graduated college many years ago. I was led to believe and told that I would have a job once I graduated. It is possible I may have misinterpreted what they said. I will take the blame though. I should've done my research to corroborate their facts. What did I know? I was an 18 year stupid head. A lot of people thought the same way.

With the college degree, a lot of people feel they did earn a job because of what they felt they were promised. From their perspective they don't feel that they have a sense of entitlement. They feel that they legitimately earned a job. They feel that this promise that was made to them was reneged upon.

Where exactly did we all go wrong in our thinking? Did we all misinterpret what was implied and said?

Did someone tell you, or did you infer this from different sources of information? If someone did tell you you'd get a job, was it someone in particular, in a position to know that it was true?

It sounds like a generalization and perhaps an exaggeration. People involved in college recruitment, for instance, might tell prospective students they will have no trouble finding a job once they've graduated, but they can't know this for sure. It is more like, "the chances are good that..." Even when there are lots of opportunities in a field, it doesn't mean one particular person will be successful. Conversely, even when there is just one opportunity, one person looking for a job will be successful.

I think that rather than determining the truth of the statement, it might be more useful for you to do what you are doing: explore ways of finding a job. Life is too short for regrets or resentment, in my opinion.

Keep positive! It isn't easy, but learning to be optimistic in the face of disappointment will make you a stronger and happier person.