Aspergers and OCD?

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I'm very interested in the Turnaround Program that you mentioned, Eureka-C. It sounds a lot like the Secret Agent Society http://www.sst-institute.net/ that helped my son so much. I can see where presenting something this way (from kids, even if they are actors) really makes the messages sink in.

I have lots of questions - forgive me for derailing this thread...how did you find it - was it recommended to you by a professional, or did you find it on your own? What kind of results are you seeing? Is it giving you good language to use when you talk to your son about his anxiety? Does it have any kind of underlying messages - like religion, etc.?

I'm looking at it, but $200 for a program...well, I suppose like any family with a special needs kid, we've thrown money away on programs before, and I am looking for reassurance before I jump in...

I found it on my own. It has CD's for each of 10 units and a workbook. Yes, It is written like a bunch of kids with different kinds of anxiety going on a camping trip, and learning techniques to face their fears. It uses four different colors for the types of anxieties (Orange is worry, purple is shy, blue is panic, and green is obsessed) It doesn't get caught up in diagnoses. There are 10 lesson CD's and a workbook, yes it uses special vocabulary. It also has a sleep/relaxation CD with several different choices to choose from, a CD to explain the lessons to parents, and a CD that talks about medications. My therapist bought it, and we paid for the workbook - $25.00 and then checked out the CD's from the therapist. There are some samples on the website, I think. If the therapist didn't buy it, we were going to buy it and stop social skills for a few weeks to pay for it. It was less than 10 weeks of therapy, and for us it was well worth it. There is no underlying religious message.

Thank you so much for replying! It does look like something we might do - I will talk to our current therapist and see if she will split the cost with us to make it available to other kids...

You're right - it's less that a session of social skills classes...but, having spent money on stuff that wasn't worth what we spent, I like having feedback from someone who's tried it! I really appreciate it!

This is not true. A person can very well have AS without having OCD. People with AS might adhere to rituals or have obsessive interests, however that is not OCD. They are two distinct things. There are other threads which detail the differences.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp4776315 ... t=#4776315



You have a doctor who thinks one can't have AS without having OCD, which is false, and who also thinks Prozac will help with "all aspects of her aspergers" which is also false. I would consider finding another doctor because he either is not very knowledgeable or he does not care to take the time to properly treat your daughter and explain things to you.

Concerning Prozac and similar medications, Prozac was developed for the treatment of depression. It and other SSRIs have found to be somewhat effective at treating OCD and similar conditions....such as trichotillomania. While SSRIs are considered largely safe, they do have their side effects and personally, I feel they should not be used unless absolutely necessary, and then, with respect to OCD and similar issues, I feel they should only be used to bring the person to a point where they can successfully use cognitive behavioral therapy. The reason for this is, even when the medication is effective, there is a very high likelihood that this effectiveness is a transient effect of the medication. Before cognitive behavioral therapy when they attempted to treat children with OCD with medication alone, they were attempting to hit a moving target, so to speak. This caused children to be subjected to changes in dosage every few weeks or months, changes in medication, various side effects, transient and otherwise, and this produced a lot of instability in their lives which was not any better than the disorder itself.

AS is different. It is not so much a condition or a disorder as it is a neurological difference which is an integral part of the person your daughter is. It is not something in itself to be treated with medication any more than it would be appropriate for your parents to medicate you simply because they did not like your personality. It won't work because you can't change who a person is, and in most instances, there are better alternatives, such as, learning how to raise a child with AS.

You can read this post to help clarify the difference between OCD and AS.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp4776315 ... t=#4776315

I agree with what Chronos said. Anxiety is a natural side effect of having a brain/neurology that experiences things differently. There could also be some chemical aspects of this that certain medications help-however our experience with SSRI's was not a good one (although I know we are the minority and I wish you better luck in this). Ritualistic behavior is a big part of AS, but as pointed out that is clearly different from true OCD. A good diagnostician should know this. My daughter's anxiety causes her to have behaviors that look like OCD to the un-trained eye, however once you understand AS and how it affects the way in which people with AS experience things, it is not surprising there is a lot of anxiety in their day to day lives which creates a need to control (a natural reaction to feeling out of control) which shows up as controlling, ritualistic behaviors.

I am just so confused by what the dr said. I've never noticed what I would consider OCD in my child. She obsesses over things, more so when she was younger, but doesn't do things over and over such as th classic example of washing hands. She's more of the type to (in the past) obsess over crocs shoes and have to have 10 pairs, play with them like toys and write stories about them. She now looks back and is embarrassed by that.
I just read an online article that said, OCD is doing the repetitive actions to ease the anxiety, Asperger's is doing it because you like to do it. That makes sense to me.
It took 4 months to get into this Dr and all of the others I called took up to 6 months. Should I take my daughter to a pediatric neurologist instead of Psychiatrist since AS isn't psychological?
The Prozac, even in a tiny dose is making her appetite less than normal, and believe me this girl can't afford to lose a pound . It is also making it hard for her to get to sleep that or the anxiety of having to wear a bra to PE because it's uncomfortable. I'm at my wits end and know I need to tell the school...it's just going to be so hard to make her understand that I'm not betraying her. She does not want help but cannot stand the way she is treated by the kids at school.
I have read so many books over the years about AS and have never heard of the OCD association.

We futzed around and lost several years where we could have had interventions that actually worked by going to social workers, psychologists and the like.

Obviously, I can't speak for everyone, but our lives were changed when we went to a pediatric neurologist who specialized in autism (we went to a multi-disciplinary autism pediatric developmental unit at a local hospital, which was headed by a pediatric neurologist and a developmental pediatrician, but has psychologists, psychiatrists, OTs, social workers and speech therapists. I highly recommend looking for a place like this. Check your local hospital and/or do a provider search on your insurance to see if you can find something near you. The difference made by the specialist was astounding for us.

I would guess that OCD, like AS, comes in many flavors and anything is possible - but from what you've written, if it were me - I would get a second opinion.

I was at one of my autism groups on Sunday and we had an interesting discussing about it at my table during break. One man mentions he may have OCD and I start talking about it. I asked what happens if someone with OCD liked their compulsions like checking all their locks and stoves and lights and they liked doing it eight times. Another man sitting next to me made a joke and said "HOCD" meaning happy OCD. I also mention what happens if an autistic person doesn't like their obsessions anymore because they were made to be ashamed of it or realized it takes over their lives and they have a hard time controlling them. Does that mean they have OCD now? They told me that was a good question and that is how some autistic people get misdiagnosed with OCD. But the books and websites say and even people all say that autistic people like their obsessions and OCD people do not. But what happens if an autistic person was made to be ashamed of their obsessions so they started to reason them and hate having them and wished they had none. OCD now? This is why I think I may have been misdiagnosed with OCD but yet I do have the obsessive thinking and it's common is autism. I have noticed with lot of us is when something upsets us, we can't get over it, we still obsess about it. Some are still obsessing about it years later. Same as when something happens, we have to fix it now or we will be obsessing over it.

I may or may not have OCD. Also cleaning is also known for OCD, being obsessed with cleaning and neatness. Well I had that too and I liked it. I liked things clean and neat and wanted it all perfect and have the home look like a palace. I even liked my other rituals I had such as food in the same spot, eating in the same order, having things in order. I liked it all. I did see someone at Experience project writing that she loves her OCD because it makes her clean and she likes to clean and keeps things neat. In my head I thought "But isn't OCD where you don't like your obsessions and compulsions and if you like them, it can't be OCD." I don't know if she is diagnosed or not or self diagnosed.

I am always challenging things I read, even DSM criterias and it pisses some people off. Some think I am being snarky. Then some others tell me I ask a very good question.

Last edited by League_Girl on 21 Aug 2012, 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm very skeptical as well, and like check out lots of different opinions on things like this. It does make sense that if someone's obsessiveness relieves their anxiety that it must be OCD. Having obsessive behavior as in the way my daughter liked to "collect" things because she liked them sounds more AS to me.
Wondering if someone is OCD if they learn to control it is a good question. I'd have to say that do you think it would be the same if a stutterer learned to not stutter, would they still be one? I'd say no. But I guess the behavior could always come back so is one ever really cured of OCD?
My daughter was ridiculed at school for obsessing over crocs....that did make her hate them and herself for liking them but I think since she personally enjoyed the obsession and that it was an outside influence that forced her to hate it I'd say that she's not OCD. I'd say that her AS is the cause of her anxiety.

Lot of members here have admitted their obsessions calm them down, it relaxes them. Isn't the the same as relieving anxiety? If that is OCD, then why are people here doing saying it relaxes them, calms them down. Do they have OCD?


I have been told I use my obsessions to help my anxiety and they relax me and calm me down.

I think one major difference is that people with OCD often have a meta-awareness that the whole thing (obsessions, compulsions etc.) are not in any way rational, and try to stop them. This is distinct from an Aspie trying to stop because his or her obsession has social consequences, it is a feeling that is there regardless of what other people think (for instance, many people may unwittingly think a person with OCD is being reasonable for washing their hands, unless they know the depth of their distress.)

I think the other key (not a doctor, this is from some reading I did when we were concerned about DS) is that the obsessions are linked to the compulsions - for instance, "If-I-do-X (repetitive or odd action,) then-Y (fear, concern) -won't-happen" with an awareness that the two things are not logically connected, kind of like superstitions. Many of the compulsions are completely random - touching a door, tapping a foot, coughing a certain number of times, etc.

In general, Aspies are slaves to logic, and don't like to do things they realize make no sense. Even when DS was at his worst (keeping in mind I'm not convinced there isn't a link - plus the OCD book helped us) his touching things was logical to him (had to be "equal" or bilateral, because he likes things to be even - his way of lining things up, I guess.) There's some grey area with that, but you can see that it's more sensible than an action that's completely at random, like rubbing a lucky rabbit's foot (which some with OCD might do - here's an article with some extreme examples: http://www.ehealthguild.com/obsessive-c ... ms-of-ocd/ .)

DS has an extremely lovely young friend who has a classic case of OCD. (She has been a great resource for him, as she's someone he can talk to about neurological differences without feeling like he's being lumped-in to some category.) Her mother described one fairly horrible episode: she had seen a scary picture of a devil somewhere, and suddenly became convinced that the devil was after her sister and was going to eat her in her sleep - so, in addition to other rituals like coughing and hopping, she didn't sleep for two or three days to protect her sister (poor angel. They did get her through it eventually, but it was a really rough couple of nights.)

I can see DS being scared of an image (happens often at Halloween,) and hating to be unable to "un-see" it, but his struggles would be limited to being unable to banish the uncomfortable image during moments when he wasn't otherwise engaged (e.g. when he's trying to go to sleep.) Similar, but not quite exactly the same.

In the final analysis, I guess I would say this: what matters is not the collection of acronyms attached to you or your child, but the roadmap of interventions and best practices that those acronyms provide. If your child is helped by the best practices and interventions for AS, then do that. If they're helped by the ones for OCD, then do that.

If either of those groups of interventions seem odd, extreme, or don't seem to work after giving them a fair trial - THAT is what matters. More specifically, I'm with other posters concerns about medicating a problem when it isn't clear exactly what the problem is that you're trying to address, and careful monitoring and expectations of specific targets for the medication - what it is expected to change, and how. OTOH, many of the therapies for OCD and AS are similar: CBT, to be specific. Maybe worth a shot.

I need to stop writing now.

Alphabet soup doesn't help anyone...I know we all want to label the issues but really each child is different and, as Momsparky said, the reasons are not really that important. What is important is what helps alleviate the problematic issues. If Prozac helps, then that's great. A trial of Prozac isn't deadly, and can be stopped and will eventually leave the system. I hate the Psychiatrists' treatment plan: they always revolve many drugs trying to find the one(s) that works. While our poor kids, being the guinea pigs, mights be helped or might be worsened. I don't believe drugs are the "cure" to this "issue", but that's me and that's what right for us. What you decide is what will be right for you in your experience. We have to follow what the almighty Drs say will help because we are parents, and we want to do what's right. But it is a long search for the right situation for each of our kids. I hope you find the answers for you.

I believe you knew more than the doctor concerning this, because you are more or less correct.



I feel you should definitely see another doctor, though only because I doubt the qualifications of the one you have just seen. There are not definite borders between the worlds of psychology, psychiatry, and neurology, and the fuzzy lines that do exist, exist for historical reasons. For example, schizophrenia is considered a psychiatric disorder. But it's neurological basis is no less valid than say Parkinson's, which is considered a neurological disorder. OCD is considered a psychiatric disorder. But the neurology of OCD is understood fairly well and it's very neurologically similar to Tourette's Syndrome, which is considered a neurological disorder. In some instances the difference is damage or anomalies in slightly different areas of the same part of the brain, which might be less than a cm apart. It is simply that historically, disorders that caused involuntary physical movements were classified as neurological disorders, and disorders that caused involuntary thoughts or unwanted emotions were classified as psychiatric or psychological disorders. You can see though that this is becoming rather arbitrary as our understanding of the brain evolves.



As I said, I would take her to see someone else.

Hi,
I agree that she needs a different doctor, but what should I do for the 6 months it takes to get an appointment? I just hope I can find another one that is covered on my insurance. My fear is that the next one will be the same.

Check the suggested reading sticky at the top of this board, and look over the index that is stickied there as well. I think the best way to figure out what diagnosis someone should have is to figure out what WORKS, starting with the least invasive. Trial-and-error kind of stinks, but it is basically how we figured out how to deal with my son. I'd find a board on OCD and see what their best practices for parenting are, too.

Keep in mind that there's a certain amount of pushback to be expected even from the right interventions and techniques, so you need to hang in there a bit whenever you're trying something new. As long as you aren't facing behavioral apocalypse (a good indicator that whatever you're trying is wrong,) and things calm back down in a week or two after the initial push-back, you are on the right track.

I forget - have you had her school do an assessment? If she's labeled as "weird," make sure that they test her pragmatic speech (http://www.asha.org/public/speech/devel ... matics.htm ) Most schools can test for this (and if you're in private school, you can still request testing (always request testing in writing to your District) from your public school district in the US. I am guessing other countries have a similar system.) They can also provide social skills classes and pragmatic speech therapy.