Is it wrong to give them the Cold Hard Facts?

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MMJMOM, keep in mind that I do have three sons on the spectrum, but I am also on the spectrum. I may be more inclined to wait them out because I remember what I went through at their ages. But I am also not all that good sometimes at offering advice to parents not on the spectrum with spectrum kids. I think I may come across as unempathetic too, but certainly don't mean to. Some things about being on the spectrum are obvious to me, and I may treat them as if they should be obvious to everyone, but I know they are not, and the way I explain them, if it looks that way, isn't intentional.

The things that are obvious to me though, weren't always obvious. I have experienced the same frustrations I see here myself at one time or another. It isn't fun when you don't have a clue what to do. It can be extremely frustrating to hear someone say "do nothing," but in fact, when it comes to many of my own kid's quirks. that is exactly what I've had to learn to do. And it is NOT easy! It SUCKS to watch them make the same mistakes I made myself long ago, but I have to remember my own parents went through the same things with me, and I KNOW there was nothing they could do. I remember that many of the stupid things I did as a kid and even later, I HAD to do on my own, without interference from them. It was, in my mind, the only way I could learn. I've had egg on my face so many times calling or visiting my parents just to tell them they were right and I wish I had listened, but I could not just do things without understanding from personal experience why they were right.

I know this may be hard to understand, but we teach our kids to accept life the way it is rather than complain all the time that it should be different. Yet, while we do that, if we also don't accept the way our autistic kids are, and deal with that reality as it is, rather than wish they were different, we're sending them a mixed message.

They may not be able to understand that's what's happening, much less articulate it, but subconsciously I think they know there is something conflicting going on. That conflict (read as "hypocrisy" in their subconscious mind), registers somewhere in their mind unbeknownst to them, and comes out toward us as anger and belligerence.

When all is said and done, the only thing I have found to work with my own kids is to let it go. Let them be who they are, get to know and understand who and what that is, and try to work WITH them as they are first. Let them make mistakes, no matter how bad they are (short of allowing them to put themselves in serious danger, of course), and help them to understand why what they did doesn't work well, AFTER they come to me looking for help. The important thing is that they are open to accepting the help first, before I offer it. After one time of telling them what I think they ought to do, I let it go and wait.

It's painful sometimes. Tries my patience beyond belief.

Welcome to our world...

If it was just talking about anything and everything, it wouldn't be as much of a problem. He has some nice boys, one of which has ADHD that probably talks ten times more than he does.

The problem is my son HATES to be corrected about anything! He doesn't say it because he knows we will talk to him about how no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes and it isn't a sign of weakness, etc. However, it is like he can't stand to admit he needs help or makes mistakes. Since he is constantly forgetting things, being unorganized, or rushing through his work to do preferred tasks, he gets corrected often, which means he is often annoyed. It annoys him to the nth degree no matter how nicely you try to have the conversation. He has heard it so much from everyone now, he pretty much does the "I know Mom!", and ignores me, his Dad, or his teacher.

He is allowed to take breaks if he feels he needs one. He was great about this last year. He loves the older gentlemen that is the aide there. This year he has only taken one break at school. He was very good and got really annoyed at the teacher and asked to be excused. Now he is holding it together fairly well and hasn't had any huge behavior problems; however, I do wish he would give himself a break now and then. I asked him why he won't take them now. He said because if he goes he will get another lecture. It isn't like they are browbeating him there, but they might work on some social skills depending on why he went to take the break.

He broke his left wrist the end of Sept. He is left handed,. so it was impossible for him to write with his cast. He was told he could have a scribe. He refused and insisted on writing with his right hand the whole time. While he doesn't have many notes in class yet, getting notes is an accommodation we have. At our meeting with his teachers last week, we found out he is refusing the copied notes. We also have him in small groups for the end of the year state testing so he will have fewer distractions. We just added that the end of the year last year, so we didn't know it but if we do that, then he has to take the other monthly tests they take to track where they are in math and science in the small group too. This can only help him focus and tune out other kids touching his desk, etc. Well, he has been arguing with the teacher about going elsewhere to take the test. It isn't that he doesn't want to be singled out either. He isn't the only kid to get these accommodations and he was singled out to miss PE and Music while his arm healed. He just can't stand to have anything he thinks insults his intelligence.

As far as running his mouth when he is angry. It isn't like he is out of control and having a tantrum. He just seems to be annoyed, have all these words and if he doesn't say them, he is going to explode. His Dad and I have actually repeatedly asked him to stop talking, to not move his lips anymore when he is running his mouth and it seems like it takes monumental control for him to do it. If it wasn't so annoying, it would be comical to watch us repeatedly tell him to stop talking and him just going on and on.

The good news is that also like Sheldon, his toes the line for his Mom. We may argue at one another, but he has always been very loving with me and knows I love him. When I have had enough and I make sure he knows it, he always does what I want. He might complain, but he does it. I love him very much, but he is so stubborn. It is painful to watch my son go through life doing most things the hard way.

I may be on spectrum, but I really do feel you.

One small piece of advice. "Stubborn."

Believe it or not, that isn't what it is. It's not stubbornness. It's an incessant need to learn for ourselves. I'm not sure it's really a need either. More like a compulsion. I HAD to learn in my own way. I still do to a great extent. Simply taking anyone's "word" for anything, well there's something about that that still just seems wrong to me. I can't explain why. It's just how I am. It's how a lot of us are.

BTW: I am 52 years old now. I've been like this all of my life. I don't know if that helps add some perspective, but thought I'd mention it in case it does. My kids are now 13, 14 and 16. All on spectrum. 14 year old is AS. 13 is PDD-NOS, and 16 is on spectrum, not determined yet.

Having two sons, one NT and the other somewhere on the spectrum, here's what I see.....

My parenting approach is called Positive Discipline, from the Jane Neilsen series of the same name. it is basically about teaching children what to do and allowing them to learn from the natural consequences if they don't do the right things.(no punishments) With my NT son, this worked like a charm. With my spectrum son, not so much. I have given a lot of thought as to why.

Through all of the assessments he has been given, they always test executive functioning. Always. His is crazy low. A common ASD learning deficit is with executive functioning. Well, what that means is the ability to plan and organize ones thoughts and actions. What I saw was a really really bright kid who was just not able to connect the cause and effect no matter what we said or how long we allowed him to face the natural consequences.

Now, of course, we haven't waited 30 years for him to catch on.

What we have done is offered supports to help with that functioning in the day to day arena. This has taken a lot of the stress (and resultant meltdowns) away, leaving him more able to process some of the other lessons. He still doesn't get a lot of it, and I am totally guilty of protecting him too much because he has such a hard time when things go badly.

I know some kids are open to being given a secret clue/code when they are going on too long. You may want to ask him if he's be interested in you giving him a code or something if you notice someone getting bugged. I know I get too loud sometimes and I really appreciate it when my DH tips me off without embarrassing me.

Thank you for your kind words. One of the best things about coming here is hearing from adults on the spectrum, getting ideas and seeing there are adults that made through all this childhood stuff. I know it isn't really stubborn, but it FEELS like stubborn.

Maybe you can explain this.. Why is it he hates to admit he was wrong, even when he is faced with proof? Example: We have 2 ponds in our neighborhood. We had a family walk one day to feed the ducks. At the closest pond, they ducks were gone, so I said we will walk to the back pond because I knew they had probably flown there. We don't go to that pond often and it had probably been at least a year since we had gone there. My son insisted there wasn't a second pond. He complained the whole time walking there we were walking for nothing because there wasn't another pond. I kept telling him I run the whole neighborhood each week and go round both ponds. I know it is there. It was so funny, I almost burst out laughing the whole time. Finally, I asked him if he wanted to wager on this. He loved that idea, so I told him if there was another pond, he had to write me an essay about how he isn't right all the time, and if he was right that there was no 2nd pond, he could have a really expensive Lego he wanted. He was hilarious thinking he was going to get this Lego. His Dad told him I wasn't dumb and wouldn't wager so much unless I knew I was going to win. Well, there it was. The other pond. My son then starts backtracking that he thought I was talking about another pond. He was smiling because we were joking about it and I know he knows he had it wrong, but he would have rather been thrown into that pond than admit it. In this instance, it was no big deal and we tried to prove out point in a fun way, but it is so frustrating when it is an important issue and we need him to admit he was incorrect.

I can only laugh right now about this, because I didn't just go through the same exact kind of thing today for once. Actually, it doesn't happen all that often anymore, but my fourteen year old does this sometimes, and used to a LOT.

I know. It feels like stubborn. And it is really. I know that, and you know that. When I said it isn't, I meant it isn't, to him. It's more about having to admit that our view, or perspective is wrong. To admit our perspective is wrong, is to admit that WE are wrong, and that something is wrong with US. That's hard enough for any child, but it's a much bigger deal for us.

How do you deal with it? I can only tell you how I do.

"...but it is so frustrating when it is an important issue and we need him to admit he was incorrect."

The first thing I had to learn was to ask myself whether I really needed him to admit he is incorrect. Is it really necessary that he admit it, or can he just be wrong, and either pay the consequences (if there are any), or just learn at a later time on his own what is correct. Another thing to think about in my own case (remember I'm ASD too, so I can tend to be "stubborn" too) is, am I too set on the fact that I'm right, and maybe just as set as he is? In other words, is who is right and who is wrong really that important at this particular time?

Another way to put it is pick your battles. Sometimes it's not that important. For example, these days, if my son insisted there was no second pond, I might just walk off on him and tell him "Well, I'm going there. You do what you want to do." But then, he's fourteen now, so I can get away with that. At 11, you might be able to as well, but they're all at different levels so you would know better than I.

But even if you couldn't just leave him behind, and had to take him with you, one thing you did do, that I wouldn't anymore (I used to, so I'm not judging you), is to make a bet out of it. The reason for that is pretty simple. When you make a bet out of it, somebody wins and somebody loses. In a way, it can be a little (and sometimes even a lot) humiliating. My son is most likely to backtrack on what he said too. So it doesn't matter who "wins" or who "loses." Either way, he's determined to be right no matter what. He has to be. If he's not, there's something wrong with him.

Basically what I do now is just ignore it most of the time. TBH, I really don't know what else to do, because nothing else has really worked. In the end, most of the time it doesn't really matter that much. He's wrong, but in most cases, it won't matter much, and if it does, he'll figure it out eventually. I guess what I've done is to listen to what I've been telling him. That it usually doesn't matter so much who is right and who is wrong. What matters is the truth, and the truth always has a way of revealing itself anyway. If I continue to argue with him, all I'm doing is demonstrating that which of us is right, does matter.

It's not about right or wrong anyway. It's not about the fact that he's wrong. What really matters is whether he can accept the truth when he finds it. It obviously doesn't help to show it to him (or in effect, rub his nose in it, which is how he'll feel when I prove it to him), but if HE figures it out, he's done something. He's solved the problem on his own.

Independent thinker. That's how I think of him now.

Yes, he will probably make some serious mistakes if he doesn't learn how to keep in mind that he could be wrong. But I think he will. He's already learning to. Somewhere around six years ago, for the first time ever, he came to me and said out of the blue, "Dad, you were right." When I asked him what he was talking about, he referenced a conversation I'd had with him at least a year before that night. I don't remember now what it was about, but he'd been thinking on the matter for over a year, and suddenly realized that what I had told him so many months ago, really was correct.

That's what had to happen many times over, each time taking a different length of time, from a week to months, before he finally started to trust many things I tell him. He had to experience my being correct and him proving it to himself many times. Now he trusts me a lot more than he used to. But still he can get some whacked idea once in a while stuck in his head, and when that happens, it's not worth butting heads with him. I just leave it be until he figures it out. And he will. He's incredibly smart, and I know he'll get it.

Well, I'm tired and think I'm starting to ramble, but I think you get the idea. The important thing I ask each time he digs in is, "Is this really worth being right about?"

My thoughts for what they are worth:

To some degree everyone likes to be validated, but yes I think people on the spectrum value it more.

When it is so hard to gauge things, whether it is body language, facial expression, fine motor control, social context and rules etc., it just makes a person feel extra good about being right, especially if people seem to always be correcting what you are doing. It also feels extra cruddy being wrong, and you start to question if you know even the things you thought you knew. Not a good feeling. It is much more comfortable to convince yourself you were right.

Some of it is from being the center of ones own universe. You can't necessarily imagine someone knowing more than you. It is very similar, I think to how a lot of (not all) NT teens are.

This sounds exactly what Russell Barkley describes with ADHD. "It's not a knowledge deficit, it's a performance deficit. They can't do what they know." He gives an example of kids getting out of a social skills class and immediately getting into a big fight over who gets to push the elevator button. His solution is immediate, artificial feedback in the form of behavior modification techniques -- points, tokens, star charts, etc. Of course, with the AS/ADHD combo you also start with a larger knowledge deficit, so you're left to wonder if the lesson didn't sink in or if the impulsivity and self regulation issues are forefront.

Wish I had an answer on what to do -- I could use it, too!

I've been there too. My daughter would argue that black was white, if she was in that sort of mood. I'm ashamed to admit that I've told her to be quiet and that I'm not arguing any more, because I'm right and she's wrong. For example, she'll argue about homework and that she's to do it this way, when it's plain for me to see that it should be done that way (it clearly states it on her sheet). It's moments like these that send me into an adult tantrum and I will slam doors. On the way to school on Thursdays and Fridays, we practise her spelling words. Today, she was being particularly awkward and was arguing about the spelling of the word 'thirsty' and how would she know if the teachers were saying that or 'Thursday' (with our accent, it's easy to mix them up). But, 'Thursday' isn't one of her spelling words this week, so how could she get them mixed up at her test. So, we spent about 20 mins of our walk to school arguing about it. It seemed like she didn't know how to spell it and this was her way round having to spell it out to me, but maybe it wasn't. I'm quite happy to explain things to her, as I do it all the time and it's one of the reasons she knows so much, but when she starts off in argument mode, there's no getting through to her.

Like MrXxx says, she seems to have to learn in her own way. If what I say makes sense, then she's fine with it, but if she's not happy, then she'll have to get there herself. She's always had to learn from her own mistakes, because I've never had very much influence over anything she has ever done. Others would say she's stubborn, single minded, strong willed, contrary, argumentative... Thankfully, she's absorbed our family values and morals, so we won't be arguing about that sort of thing later.

IMHO, behavioral modification is not the best way to deal with autism at all. Barkley's "solution" didn't work with any of my kids.

Acceptance first, is the real key. I'm a little annoyed right now because I had a longer explanation of why typed up earlier but I multi task too much sometimes (I have ADD too), and lost the tab I was editing in. I'll see if I can dig up an older post of mine later and link to it here. This is a topic I've covered quite a few times.

EDIT: Actually, I guess just referring back to my last post, you can probably glean what I'm getting at here:

Behavioral modification only addresses surface problems. It's all about getting results now, for an immediate problem. It doesn't get to the core problem, which is understanding how your autistic child thinks. Each child is unique so you can't go by how other parent's children think. You really have to get to know your own child, and that starts with accepting them as they are right now, unconditionally.

In essence, we teach our children to accept society as is, and that they need to learn to adjust to society. As adults, we all know this is a fact. My grandfather used to say, "Wish in one hand and s**t in the other. See which one fills up first." It's a fact that if we don't adjust to societal standards, we won't get along in life very well.

But kids in general (all kids), tend first to wish and complain the world were different than it is. NT kids learn pretty quickly that adjusting gets them ahead, so they start doing it almost automatically at a fairly young age. ASD kids on the other hand, take a long time to adjust, and that delay has everything to do with how they think of themselves in relation to the world around them. To them, the world is just plain WRONG, and needs to be fixed. This is why we're seen as "blaming the world and everyone else" for our problems.

But, that is who we are. In our minds, we're not blaming anyone. We're pointing out the truth. And the truth is, there IS a lot about society that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And it makes less sense to us than it does to the average person.

To "adjust" to the world means there must be something wrong with us. If we do adjust, we're admitting that, and we find that extremely hard to do, if not impossible, if we are already firmly convinced there is nothing wrong with our thinking. For us, it's a moral issue. And, in fact, a lot of how we think is not really morally wrong at all.

If you think of behavioral modification in terms of rewards, think of all rewards as cookies. The cookie could represent a real cookie, time playing a video game, or even a Ferrari. It doesn't matter what the cookie is.

So we offer cookies for "correct" behaviors. And that may even work for a while. But the smarter kids on the spectrum catch on after a while and realize they're being bribed into behavioral changes. They'll realize after a while that we're bribing them to stop a behavior or way of thinking that isn't technically morally wrong, in exchange for a behavior or thinking pattern that doesn't make sense to them. Some will feel "tricked" and react belligerently seen as stubbornness.

With many ASD kids, behavioral modification backfires and eventually doesn't work at all.

The reason for this, I think, is because we as parents and educators, while we are trying to teach the kids to adjust to the world, aren't making any effort at all to adjust to the kids. I think they see this as a conflicting message, and even as hypocrisy. Since they see it this way (which may only be subconsciously), they stop responding. Because it's a MORAL issue to them, not a matter of learning to succeed. Moral issues take priority over success in a society we see as morally corrupt to begin with. In other words, we feel we're being forced to compromise our principles in order to succeed. And if we see YOU as acting hypocritically, by not trying to see things through OUR minds, while insisting that WE view things through the minds of others, we aren't going to feel so cooperative.

This is why I think it's imperative to accept ASD kids AS IS before we start asking them to accept us, others, and society in general as is. If we do that first, they are far more likely to accept first us in return, then others, and then society. Why? Because we've fostered trust for us within them before asking them to make changes.

And if you have trust FIRST, there's no need for rewards, because the trust itself is its own reward. Moral integrity tends to be a major issue with us, but it can be a little difficult for others to wrap their heads around what that really means in terms of interacting with us.

Make sense?

Last edited by MrXxx on 15 Nov 2012, 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Behavior mod hanst worked with my son casue he hanst learned the appropriate behavior to replace with the neg. One instance, his ABA had me try casue effect with my son when playing the video game. Whenever he would yell or cry while playing the game, he had to shut it and sit in a chair for a few minutes. It got to the point that my son would shut the game himself and go to the chair after he yelled, but it did NOTHING to stop the yelling. He was yelling just as much, just stipping the game inbetween. It hit me, this is maddening!! What he needed is to learn what to do INSTEAD of yelling and crying when he loses the game. SO, the ABA tought him a few skills like counting, breathing, taking a walk, going tot alk to someone. And THAT helped. MUCH better then just the cause/effect.

Looks like I was in the middle of editing and we cross posted. I added a bit up there ^^^ that might help.

I wonder if you could let him save face? Some people have a huge desire to not be "shown up" or "have their face rubbed in it" when they are wrong. I think this is fine if they can listen and change in the future.

In fact I have heard a sermon on this, though I have no idea what the scripture was (maybe when all the disciples swore they would stay up to pray with Jesus but they all fell asleep). The point of the sermon was, sometimes you can have someone say "yes, yes, you are right, absolutely, I will do that from now on." Then they forget or do not follow through. A second person could have a poor attitude in the moment but then take the comments or situation to heart and resolve to change and grow.

The point was not to be like the first person, but think you were better than the second person.

So of course it is best to have a good attitude in the moment AND follow through, but if follow through comes first, and then later having a good attitude in the moment develops, that is an acceptable model. Also sometimes people just think too slowly or do not do their best at a time of confrontation. But follow through can still be good.

So I think it sounds really annoying. I have taken a regular parenting class (supposedly to add a curriculum for special needs and single parents in the future) and they gave this explanation also. When a parent takes charge of a problem, the child can focus on the parent. When the parent does not take charge of a problem, the child cannot get distracted from himself and focus on the parent. I do not know how to adapt that to a child who will not learn from natural consequences without scaffolding. A question was asked like this and the person said he did not know, but they want to add a parenting class this way. (I took Screamfree Parenting, watching it as a series of DVDs, and filling in a workbook.)

I am also going to mention, that in the regular parenting books I read, they all say to avoid eye contact when having an important discussion with a child, and often just asking them to listen. To expect them to say "Gee, Mom, you were right," is not something reasonable to expect until they are 40 years old and have their own kids.

This is also a misconception I run into a lot with ASD kids. We've got to remember that ASD kids react totally differently than average kids, and there are deep seated reasons for that.

If you approach problems with ASD in a "take charge" manner, you're asking for a lot of trouble. I can almost promise this approach will result in frustration and bewilderment. "Why isn't this working?"

Because taking charge is basically challenging the child. With an awful lot of ASD kids, that's a losing battle.

Much of what I've found actually does work with autism, is practically the exact opposite of what conventional wisdom tells us.

As a parent, you almost have to learn to use what's known as mental jujitsu. Working with the way the child thinks. And you can't do that until you understand how they think.

The problem is the outside world. When something the outside world expects of him, is arbitrary or stupid etc (which it frequently is) I always make sure that my son knows that I know this. I try to tell him that sometimes the real world's expectations of me are arbitrary or stupid, too. And that is the rub; at the end of the day we have to teach them which fights are worth fighting and what things we just have to suck up. They think everything is a fight worth having, and it is hard to argue convincingly that it isn't.

I do reward "expected" behavior (defined by my criteria); It has not created any harmful effects for us, though I can see where it might. The main success in it for us is when I am trying to incentivize the acquisition of a skill I know he can acquire relatively easily. I don't bother with things I don't think he can do, because then he would just be frustrated.

Negative reinforcement does really nothing other than let him know the school is displeased with something he is doing. I think it makes him more combative. I don't want to say I never use it, but I try to use something that seems like a natural consequence. like" If you are rough with object x, I will have to take away object x for while." Otherwise, I think it just comes off as a power play.