Violence from 8yo

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But I am really flexible with her, and it actually feels more like "give a yard and they take a mile" type of thing a lot of the time. I really feel she has ODD. I very rarely say "no" to her, although I might say that something she wants to do will have to wait a little while (even with waiting she seems unable to comprehend that she simply has to wait for some things, even given a logical reason). If I do say "no", it's usually because she's had a privilege removed for bad behaviour and she wants the privilege back, but she knows very well exactly the reason for the removal of the privilege and doesn't get violent at those times.

Because her learning is at home 1-2-1, she is not learning all day like she would be at school, because we can accomplish in a lot less time what she needs to learn than she would need in a class of 30 children. She obviously doesn't have homework being home-educated so she doesn't have that pressure, and we obviously don't have the ridiculous bureaucracy that goes on in schools. I do record what the girls do (pretty anally ) but all that involves for them is either passing me their books for marking and giving back to them for feedback or asking which websites they used and in the case of one of the websites that doesn't give accounts, which specific games. That takes 2 minutes and is nothing for them.

She doesn't like learning (ironically because she is so intelligent and likely to be gifted in reading as she's 2 years ahead of age at least). But the pressures of what we do at home are so much less than she will have at school, plus she is in a calm environment here with no sensory problems. She has more flexibility and freedom than a lot of children, tempered with clear boundaries where needed of course.

I really don't think her violence is related to that. She just seems to go in mood cycles where she becomes more extreme, although even the less violent cycles are still really difficult behaviour-wise.

What suggestions do you have that will work better than calmly being told "it's time to get washed now"? And I even make light of her opposition by laughing along with her when she starts throwing things and trying to whip me with things (she told me I should be serious because she is!). I try to make it into a bit of fun to diffuse her anger. I welcome suggestions that have worked for you. (It might be something I've already tried but hearing alternatives might give me ideas). It's like you know when you have tried everything and nothing whatsoever has worked, it's like mentally

The point is, if she cannot cope with being told to do something that is necessary, how on earth is she going to cope in school? There will be a lot more demands on her there, and as we've seen in other recent threads, schools do not see autistic behaviours as autistic, they just see it as unacceptable and naughty.

And I am dreading getting her ready for school on time, she is also having council transport for school, I can just imagine them waiting outside whilst I am chasing her round the house to get her ready!

This is expressly why I used to think DS was bipolar - he'd go for months without incident and then suddenly become explosive for a week or two straight.

Turns out, he really wasn't understanding what was expected of him - and believe me, I explained - and the "good" times represented the length of time he was capable of holding in his frustration. Our therapist likened it to holding a beach ball under water - eventually it pops up and you can't stop it.

I don't want you to think that the other posters and I don't understand what you are going through or are telling you that old tired line of "you aren't disciplining enough/you're too lenient" that so many of us live with. We're just offering our experience with what sound like very similar children.

DS had a couple of other deficits that drove a lot of his behavior, for instance a near-total inability to identify feelings until they were turned up to "11," and he was extremely rigid. We worked with him on all those issues before we started to see results. I thought this resource from the website/webinar above was very helpful, in fact we're filling it out now to make sure we didn't miss anything. http://www.livesinthebalance.org/sites/ ... 282%29.pdf

I will also say, much as the Explosive Child techniques work and were useful to us, we ALSO used traditional star-chart and punitive measures to deal with the violence, if only to help express to my son how critical it was that he help us get this behavior under control. We didn't use these for anything else. I did explain (when we were talking about it calmly) that I was worried that I wasn't always going to be able to stop him. The point is, though, that Dr. Greene is right: if you address the behavior and don't solve the problem then you've still got a problem.

As for the speech testing, public schools usually have a separate, trained speech pathologist who isn't wearing any other hat and who may well be capable. You might actually get an accurate diagnosis from the school. If you go this route - I urge you to be there to witness the test; I know it was a lightning-bolt moment for me as a parent. Watching my smart, hyperverbal son completely fall apart on simple questions made me really understand what was happening to him. I began to see (as he melted down during the test) why communication was such an important part of his behavior, even though it wasn't a 1 to 1 correspondence with misbehavior.

Sometimes it helps to know the recommended tests - I don't know if they are the same in the UK, but here in the US, the TOPL is frequently used (here's a study that shows its effectiveness for ASD kids http://lshss.asha.org/cgi/content/abstract/36/1/62 )

I will try to see if there is some alternative wording that makes it sound like something else where I can, but for instance washing, which she cannot do herself (she knows what needs doing but can't manage it and I've tried to get her to, she still frequently can't even wipe properly after BMs), is something I have to do and therefore how would I tell her that this is about her getting independent? She does understand why she needs to be washed and she likes to be clean and fresh BTW.

I don't give my girls chores. It never really occurred to me and I didn't have to do chores as a child either. My eldest tidies up after herself with toys and keeps her room very tidy, she's recently started making her own bed, but that's it. My youngest only has to tidy her toys and stuff away after herself (although she will often start moaning that she needs help!), and occasionally I will pass her cutlery to put on the dining table or ask her to bring me something. My eldest would go absolutely nuts if I tried to get her to do chores, which I think is partly because of being so very low on empathy as well as very overreactive. She complained to high heaven when I said it was time to make her own bed. It's not worth the hysterics to me because she lays all the guilt imaginable on me and I can't bear the screaming. There will come a point that I will get her to take on some things, but for sure it's not yet. My youngest, is far more willing to do little jobs to help, but she is so accident prone and clumsy that I daren't ask chores of her. She is still waiting for her OT assessment. She can't even walk around without regularly banging herself!

Like I said, DS is 12 - it's different because he can understand that he's headed towards adulthood. I don't know that this technique would work in this particular instance, but it is a good one to keep in mind.

We only have DS do chores that he's capable of doing (he can't, for instance, put dishes in the dishwasher unless it is absolutely empty) and I only made chores for him in his room because HE needs a clean room - I was perfectly willing to let that go until I realized that it was contributing to his anxiety. However, I do take the long view that he needs to learn to take care of himself, so when I see that he's ready to take on something in the household, that's how I frame it.

You do need to take into account their actual ability - if your daughter just doesn't have the coordination to clean herself up, no amount of technique is going to change that. That doesn't indicate a communication problem unless she's having difficulty understanding or sequencing the task.

Look, I've completely been there, even the laughing at him bit - and I made things worse until I learned to get my son's perspective.

I am guessing that your daughter knows that most kids clean themselves on their own at her age, and she is frustrated and upset and maybe a bit ashamed that she can't do it herself. She's taking this out on you because she doesn't see an end in sight and doesn't know what to do about it. It may not matter that you've been kind and understanding or even that you have explained that she has different needs from other kids - or even if she doesn't know other kids. Kids have ways of figuring out that they are different, and they are much harder on themselves than anyone else is on them.

School is hard, and schools don't always see things the way we'd like them to - but if you're prepared, your child is prepared, and the school is prepared it can be managed. You should make sure you've gone in and front-loaded her with accommodations and therapy. Another thing you can do is spend the summer practicing getting up in time (we do this every year - the last two weeks in summer we actually go to the school every morning and then turn around and come home.)

You should, however, be able to access the speech testing even if your child is homeschooled - ask the school.

Just curious, what led to the decision to send her back to a traditional school? Was it because homeschooling isn't working out for the family, or because that's the only way you can access services, or other family circumstances unrelated to her behavior?

Have you read Congratulations, Your Child is Strange -- it's available for free at http://www.asdstuff.com/grats.html. I think this book (by an adult with AS who is active here on Wrong Planet) was one of the most helpful in explaining my DS's meltdowns. It's a little harsh toward parents, but if you can get past the first bit and into the chapter that describes the stages of a meltdown it's very enlightening. It basically explains how many things that don't seem like they should be stressful to you are very stressful to someone with AS, and the accumulated stress puts the person into a state where the smallest thing sets off an explosive reaction.

Another book I found helpful was No Fighting, No Biting, No Screaming: How to Make Behaving Positively Possible for People With Autism and Other Developmental Disabilities by Bo Hejlskov Elven.

A lot of it comes down to figuring out what is stressing your child out, and then figuring out what can be done to make the situation(s) less stressful. In your example of washing up, you may have to figure out how to make washing up easier (organizationally) or more comfortable (ie relieve any sensory issues) for her.

On another note, I read the Explosive Child, and found that (at least at age 5 and 6) my son wasn't capable of having the kind of conversation needed to implement his techniques. He literally couldn't tell us what was upsetting to him. At 7.5 he is starting to be able to talk about what went wrong and make another plan for next time, so maybe it's time to try it again.

It's a subtype of autism. PDA kids still have a lot of the usual autistic issues, but also have some atypical features.

Thank you momsparky, Zette and Ettina.

I will look at all those links. I really appreciate your explanations too.

A couple of days ago, much later on after she had been really naughty, she was colouring in on the floor, and without turning around to me, out of nowhere, she suddenly announced "I wish I hadn't done that earlier, I shouldn't have done it, and I feel embarrassed." Maybe it's the start of a long road of awareness for her (with all the potholes along the way) of being more self-aware.

I am putting her back in school, because her behaviour has literally made me so unwell. I am so desperately in need of a break. I feel close to housebound because of her behaviour and she has many times affected outings or prevented us going out, which has spoiled things for her sister. So her sister deserves some time and to go to places that she enjoys too.

There is no chance of therapy before school (or during/after), we don't have the finances to do it privately and the NHS seems not to be interested in autistic children, it's like they think because you will always be autistic they don't want to bother, they only want to help the 'normal' ones they can cure of psychological problems.

The speech, again, we can't afford private and they have told us already that they want to do it once she is settled in school. She is visiting the school this week and next week and they are then drawing up a timetable to ease her in part-time initially and slowly take her to full-time.

The problem is that the school (which is mainstream) said they would get her a 1-2-1 and as soon as the found she was academically able they withdrew the opportunity of this and I have had to contact a mediation organisation (the council sent me a leaflet on them with her SEN proposed statement pack, as they have to by law) and they will have made contact with the school today so I have to wait to see what happens with that.

This would definitely set my son off. It has become clearly evident this year that a great deal of my son's emotional outbursts are directly related to feeling embarrassed. If I laughed in a situation like this he would certainly take it as me laughing AT him and would not understand at all that I was trying to diffuse a tense situation. Often times it is not clear why he is embarrassed but I think momsparky's ideas are on the right track. He thinks he should be able to do certain things and when he cannot, he feels embarrassed and that leads directly to him being angry. It does not help that he is a perfectionist.
Things that work for us:
Routine and rewards. Timers and warnings before transitions. Adjusted expectations. Clear and concise communication. A member here once described it as the "air traffic controller method of communication". Say exactly what you need to say in as few words as possible. We've tried all manner of visual charts, sticker charts and reward systems. Currently he is really motivated by having a large number of minutes left before we have to leave the house in the morning and the sooner he gets his stuff done, the more minutes he has. Either my husband or I help him get dressed and go with him to the bathroom to brush his teeth. I know from experience that he cannot do these things on his own. He needs someone there to gently nudge him to keep on these tasks until they are done. Once he has those things done, he goes to look at the clock and can tell you how many minutes left until the 8:15, leave for school time. He gets to play Legos until 8:15. At 8:00 I start giving him a countdown. It is especially important for us that I give a 5 min 2 min and 1 min warnings. Then I say the same thing every day. "Time for coats and backpacks" It hasn't always been this way but this school year, we have only been late once or twice and I haven't had to wrestle him into his clothes or had my glasses swiped off my face or my nose nearly broken for a long time.

I would suggest that you start now practicing for getting her ready for school in the morning. If you need to, make a visual chart with the steps involved broken down and try to have some type of positive reinforcement for each step. In the beginning, reward for even small approximations of accomplishing a task. She may resist it at first, my son sometimes has a hard time with things like this if he thinks they are too babyish, but if you build in rewards that involve her special interest or a highly desired activity, you may get her buy-in. If she's willing, have her ehlp you make the chart so she has some ownership interest in it.

I mentioned above that either my husband or I help him get dressed/brush teeth. Most mornings, unless DH has to leave for work early, DH does this with DS. We made this shift from me doing it to him doing it a few months ago and that has helped. I don't know that DS gets his stuff done much differently but it reduces my stress level which I think it great! Because even though I am telling you matter-of-factly what we do every morning, it is frustrating to have to spend 15 minutes with a 7 yo to get him dressed. So if your husband can help by taking on certain tasks, I would highly recommend it!

Thanks Bombaloo. I didn't say before, but she is actually laughing with me, like she's really enjoying it...whilst continuing throwing things etc! So I don't think it's made her more angry. When she is embarrassed she can't disguise it, she blushes really obviously, and she's never blushing or acting embarrassed at any of the times, just angry.

I do tell her things simply, and I've tried rewards as well, including gold star charts, (we've always had routines anyway, from babyhood). I've also tried timings, and time-outs on the naughty step (which I bought specially!). I've always also given warnings.

I also have pecs cards with what's coming next and pecs emotion cards on a ring. She hasn't shown much interest in them other than to play with them on her own!

Unfortunately my husband can't help. He works very hard, 7 days a week and has to leave early for work. Not only that, but she hates him getting her ready because he has this really annoying over-jolly and repetitive way of talking to her (in fact to us all!) and it drives her mad. He isn't gentle enough either and she has exteroception (tactile sensitivity).

To get her to behave when she has to get ready for school, it may well come down to bribing!

It's just so exhausting having such opposition and I wonder if she will increase in her physical aggression as she gets older, because she never used to do that, it was just bad behaviour and meltdowns before.

Bribing good. In fact, a few years back, Bombaloo gave me the best.before.school.bribe. EVER - a square of bubble wrap to pop. We bought a ream of it and cut it into little squares, DS got one for getting in the car for school.

I can't help but think there might be a disconnect between what you think she is feeling and what she is actually feeling. It is fairly common for autistic people to laugh in situations where they are not happy at all. I find it hard to interpret what my son is really feeling in some situations. His ability to communicate his feelings is improving though with a lot of effort.

Also. I don't call it bribery, I call it positive reinforcement. And really, there is nothing wrong with it. If you can find something that your child will respond to, use it to your best advantage. the frustrating thing for us is that there hasn't been one consistent thing that works as positive reinforcement for DS. I have to keep coming up with new things.

Hi All -

I haven't been around lately, but pop in from time to time.

Your daughter sounds very much like my son at that age. None of the traditional parenting techniques worked (work) for him. He doesn't respond well to charts, rewards or any "scheme". However, if I keep it really simple... First this (what I want) then that (what he wants), necessary things usually get done. "you can play video games after your teeth are brushed". I also started relaxing my level of control over the stuff he loves to do. If he did his "required stuff" first, he could do as much of the other stuff as he wants.

I started noting on a calendar every time DS flipped out at me. I noted time of day, place, if he was hungry or what he had eaten, who was he with, if there were demands on him what they were, he has BM issues so I would note that as well. After about a month, I was able to peice together what combinations of issues seemed connected.

What I can say is that we had a Dr. perscribing anything we wanted to try. Nothing, I mean nothing, worked as well as this detective work.

DS went from 2-3 violent meltdowns a week to 2-3 per year.

Now that he's 13 and 200#, those rare meltdowns are very scary, but I am infinately grateful that they are so rare.

Have been chewing this over, someone's post above (sorry can't remember which one) made me start on the path to realising what I think it is, and really the sad thing is that I have no control over this.

I know with myself, the stresses of life tend to build up, without me even realising, and I have noticed in the past, that something will set me off and I will end up having a really big cry (maybe disproportionate to the event). Afterwards, I will feel really different. Like everything went out of me, and sort of a tired relaxedness (until the next time!). It is a necessary form of release.

So, I realised, that my daughter, being more autistic than me, (and with me being the passive subtype too) this is her release. I believe she finds pure existence stressful, because there often is no rhyme nor reason as to why she will be in a foul mood, or explode into violence. I don't think it's sensory issues, because she will meltdown at the time over them if it affects her like that. She is on high alert all the time, and of course, like any autistic she has understanding issues, she gets frustrated when things don't go her way. I think it all builds up and up, until she just lets out the steam. So of course, this will be the violence, which has only been in the last year, as she's got bigger and like any child, is pushing her limits. Like I said, I know it's not me causing it, because she does it with the rest of the family too. And she recently told me everyone makes her angry (and that's when no-one has done anything).

At home, she is in a controlled environment, there is never any major sensory issue so bad to cause it, no loud music or TV, no overheating etc. and she has significant freedom. Once she starts school, she will have far less control and exposure to much more in the way of noise etc. She also doesn't like learning nor being told what to do (like I said, very ODD). So this is going to go one of two ways. Either she will feel intense anxiety at school but she will feel more pressured by the environment and will therefore hold it in, then there will be a veritable volcano at the end of every school day. Or, she will let rip at school and they will recognise her inability to cope. (I'm hoping the latter, because she needs to be in the school's ASC unit which they are resisting and also, it's healthier for her to let it out than bottle it in, no matter what the school think).

She is resistant to going back to school. The school and her SEN SW know this. So the SW told me that she will ensure they "really sell the school to her" when she visits (she has had one visit and the 2nd is due this week). What concerns me about this, is that they may give her a false impression that school is all fun, climbing frames and art projects. When the reality is, she is Y3 at the moment, which is not play-based, is all about concentration, application and meeting deadlines for homework etc. She has trouble listening when people are talking as she switches off through boredom, by her own admission. She is the type of child who is very black and white in her thinking. She will get confused, if they have made it seem all lovely and fun and then when she starts she finds it is not what she was expecting. It is almost a dishonesty to her to try to sell it to her like that, it should be "what you see is what you get" as she will be the first to notice it's not what they made it seem like and will start getting upset. It's leading her up the garden path so to speak. Knowing her, I think this may be a problem.

Last edited by whirlingmind on 20 Apr 2013, 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I can't agree more that it would be unwise of them to oversell the fun aspect. First off. I would be shocked if they even understood what a "generic, textbook" autistic child would consider fun, much less your particular child. Secondly, you know very well, as you state, that at that age the "fun" is not often to be had. My son objects every year when the quantity of fun drops and the expectations go up. Every summer, I have warned him that this will continue to happen. I can just imagine how he would feel if people were blowing smoke up his (You know what, but wanting to avoid a TOS violation.) I think you absolutely have to be honest.

As to whether you get the explosion at home or at school, everyday, I don't know how to predict that. Last year we got it worse. This year they do. It depends on how long she can hold it together, and who -she- would rather explode in front of. Last year it was me, because of the trust factor. This year, I think he is trying to shield me from it. it is kind of odd. I really have not figured it out, myself.

Last edited by ASDMommyASDKid on 21 Apr 2013, 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.