Beyond FRUSTRATED @ life in general & children in partic

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There isn't a clear cut 'difference' between High functioning autism and low functioning autism, its a spectrum with varying levels of severity...essentially someone with LFA is going to be less functional than someone with HFA. But its not like they are different disorders with different symptoms. As for Aspergers and HFA I would almost say there really isn't a difference I'd say they are just different names for the same thing. Not to mention Aspergers is being removed from the DSM as a diagnoses so people with it will then just be considered HFA.

I also don't get the speech delay thing, I think its more likely some people with autism have that delay and some don't....after all aspergers is autism. I think what seperates an NT from someone with HFA is they have a normal functioning brain/neurology while someone with HFA doesn't and they don't have the same impairments in social interaction, sensory issues or meltdowns. Some people with HFA are certainly more outgoing than introverted, but they still have trouble with social interaction and can unintentionally bother people by perhaps not understanding proper boundaries and such.

Your daughter does sound like a good candidate for a non-traditional school. Unschooling or Montessori sound good.

My only thought would be, how much do you involve her in these decisions? You said your picking the events for her. Maybe instead ask her "What would you like to do?"

Getting her involved in decisions about her life might help with the issues.

Honestly, the labels will always be gray. They only exist to create (a) touch points for deciding what sorts of protocols to follow and (b) a way to decide on and qualify for services. The experts keep tweaking them so I'm not sure it matters if we truly understand them; for us and our kids, in the end, the labels are only as good what they get for us.

In my opinion, people are a spectrum, and ASDs are, in general, indication of a different brain wiring. But not everyone who has ASD shares all the same wiring or every aspect of the condition, and personality and IQ will come into play on top of that; ASD is never the only thing that defines someone or their challenges.

Officially, "high functioning" means someone who is not always obviously autistic; who can talk and interact and do OK in school and may not show their deficits clearly without someone doing a little digging. "Low functioning" is someone obviously impaired. A lot can fall in between.

Aspergers is very similar to high functioning autism and, as another poster noted, current proposals will merge the two titles. Basically Aspergers was identified by a different doctor and that is why the condition bears his name, but time and study have shown just how similar Aspergers is to autism; we're pretty sure at this point in time that it is the same wiring difference, just varying in degree and effect.

At one time I read that they believe some 20-30 genes may be involved in ASD (on top of potential environment triggers to some of those genes), meaning that it is quite possible for someone to have any mix there-in, on top of other traits and genes like IQ. To me, that all makes sense. I have a husband that shows a lot more obvious ASD traits than I do, but was never diagnosed. As soon as my son received his Aspergers diagnosis, however, my husband realized he was ASD, too. I'm on the fence about me: I clearly have many ASD traits, but differ from my husband and son in some pretty key areas, and I'm not sure I have enough ASD traits to be diagnosed, if I wanted to be. My daughter seems to be further along the spectrum away from ASD, although every so often there is some little thing that lets me see the genetics in there with her, as well; her and I have talked about it, and we think she probably has "some" of the ASD genes like her brother, but not enough to "be" ASD. I think mood issues are more the thing with her; hard to be sure; we haven't encountered a reason to have her tested, so we don't really know. My son is considered tip of the iceberg ASD, smart and doing well, but I can see the ASD so clearly in him after all these years, and there is no doubt that he THINKS like most of the ASD members of this forum. I think very differently, and a "true" NT processes even more differently.

What I mentioned for your daughter is the theory of mind question, and that has been, to me, a pretty hallmark indicator of ASD. Theory of mind is really hard for people with ASD. If that is your daughter's only ASD trait, she'll be just fine. Shoot, I expect her to be just fine regardless; my son will be. The reason for bringing it up is not to worry you, but to give you some insight into what protocols might work for her, and to keep you ready for future issues you might see, and give you a starting point for how to help her with those. If she needs to learn how to work around theory of mind issues, that can be done, but the first step is seeing that she struggles there. So, since you asked for red flags, I pointed it out. I don't know how they would test it at her age, so I don't have something quick and easy for you to use; the so called Sally test I've heard about is more appropriate for 5 year olds (at 8, your daughter is likely to have figured that one out; ASD will show up as a delay in many things, not a permanent difference). But, just in case, the test goes more or less like this: the tester puts two people in a room with two boxes, while the child being tested observes. While both people are in the room, person X puts a toy in box A. Person X then leaves the room, and the one staying (person Y) moves the toy to box B. The child being tested is then asked about what will happen when person X returns, which box will person X look in for the toy? By age 5, most NT children will have figured out that person X will not know that person Y moved the toy, and will answer that person X will look in box A, the box they put the toy into. A child with theory of mind issues, however, will not realize that person X does not know what they know - that the toy is now in box B, and will answer that person X will naturally look in box B, because that is where the toy is.

A lof the differences vary from clinician to clinician though they are supposed to use the DSM as a guide. A Sweetleaf said, the new DSM will not list Asperger's as a separate condition anyway. I would not get too bogged down in these differences. There is an incredible amount of overlap between HFA and Asperger;s anyway, hence getting rid of the difference.

Some people us Asperger's to mean mild autism, some use it just to mean a demonstrably smart autistic person. The old (current) DSM primarily talks about language delays as distinguishing HFA and Asperger's. (HFA's have them, Aspies don't) That guideline is not always followed.

My son was diagnosed as HFA as opposed to Asperger's because he has severe social deficits as well as issues with adaptive behaviors/life skills. (although did not have an actual language delay his speech development is unusual and he has a host of pragmatic issues, of course, which is not the same as a delay.) At the time I was annoyed about it b/c of the lack of a language delay, but that was when I thought the label means more than it does. You have to deal with the individual traits of your child anyway.

My son is also more left brained and clumsy, like Asperger's is typically depicted. So I think of his as a combination anyway, not that it matters. He is also aggressive, now, so I would not say that is an exclusively LFA trait. It has to do with rigidity and frustration level and ab ability to understand and constructively express emotion. You can be HFA and have Aspreder;s and have these issues, though they tend to be milder due to reduced problems with above traits.

I used to be really bogged down in the terminology thinking it would give me clues. I can tell you, it doesn't help. Your son is an individual and so is your daughter.

As far as distinguishing any of these things from being N:, LFA is clearly not NT due to the language delay and all that goes into diagnosing LFA.. The line between Asperger's/HFA and NT can be thin, and just depends on how functional you are and honestly the diagnostician.

I would just deal with what you know about your daughter and see if you can get her checked to either diagnose or rule things out.

Hi, well, we usually pick activities based on her known interests, and we never force her to try an activity which we know she wont care for. But even so, she dislikes it when she finds out that she has been enrolled in these programs - it is almost as if she wants to enroll in activities HERSELF, just give me your credit card & your cell phone, already, and I will call them and enroll myself, is her attitude.

The Kumon math program is a good example of this. She does math in her spare time because she considers it a "hobby". So, of course, I thought she would be thrilled to try Kumon math. WRONG. She got so mad that she threw a fit when she found out that she had been enrolled in the class. When I asked why she was upset - it was her beloved mathematics - she wouldn't respond and just refused to go.

I have no clue what is going on with her. Over the weekend, she told me that she wanted to have trumpet lessons but I am afraid to enroll her in any (if that makes any sense) ?

Last edited by HisMom on 15 May 2013, 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Maybe it's the sense of freedom?

It's likely that she just prefers having the option to go or not go - if she gets enrolled, it would likely make her feel tied-down and obligated to go, regardless of how mentally functioning she is.

Therefore, the best solution is to not enroll. Some forewarning and asking first might help as well.

I agree, I would not have liked it if my parents enrolled me in something without asking me first, even if it was something I liked. I might have just wanted to stay home and relax and do my own thing without having it structured for me. I also might not want to be committed to something a certain amount of time each week, at a certain time, for however long. As aspie as I am, I valued a certain flexibility to just relax if I wanted to.

If I wanted to enroll in something, I asked my parents and they would say yes if it was not too expensive or too big a disruption to their schedules. I do not even understand scheduling a child without asking but maybe that is a family difference. I do not know. My parents never would have wanted to risk wasting money for something I might not want to do.

Have you tried asking her first to see if she responds better to that approach?

ASDMommyASDKid, I have learned to ask her ! !

However, I don't know how to handle this situation. She says that she wants trumpet lessons - and I want to enroll her in them. But what if she gets mad and doesn't want to go ??!

Last edited by HisMom on 15 May 2013, 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Regarding home schooling. School is just a giant scam. I guess the only thing it teaches is socializing.

If you wanna, for s**ts and giggles, get her a GED test prep book, at Walmart, or the library, or whatever, and see if she passes the tests in the book. They're about the same level as a 7-8th grade standardized test (sometimes 6th grade.) If she is so self willed and actually smart, see if she is. The tests in the books generally are less hard or the same hardness as a real GED. Why have her wasting time if she's actually very gifted? If she can pass the GED, then she can go to the gifted programs at community college/etc.

It's pretty unfun in life being forced to do useless stuff for no reason.

Does she tend to follow through with things in general? I don't mean the things she does not want to do, but things she picks and does like? If she does have this ability, then it might be worth trusting that. I would make it clear though that if she picks it she is going to have to follow through for a certain amount of time. Is it a finite, summer program with a definite end, or would she be expected to do this on an ongoing basis? If this is a finite thing then I would try to make her see it through to the end? If It is not, then I would talk to her and see if you can both agree to a minimum commitment if you agree to enroll her.

If you do not think she is ready, then I would say that. If the lessons are not set for a certain amount of time, and you can rent her a trumpet for a very short amount of time, then it still may be worth testing her resolve and follow through. Then if she did not like it, you could just return the instrument.

The way I did these things with my son at that age was have him there when I got the paperwork and scheduling information, and I asked him for the final yeah or neah. My kids always knew that my rule was once we had the "yeah," they were committed to complete the session or season. With trumpet lessons, I would let my child know everything that is involved (cost, time commitments, etc) and then what my expectation for their sticking to it would be. Weighing all that in, they give me the yeah or the neah. Often, my kids will then decide its a no go - they aren't willing to make that commitment. Well, I'm glad to know that first. When they do commit, sure, sometimes you have one of "those" days, but you remind them that they CHOOSE it, and they AGREED to the commitment, and then they are usually fine, unless something unusual is going on. Worked for us, anyway.