Husband won't forgive son's rage damage without apology

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That presupposes that a lack of understanding of consequences is the problem. In fact, the OP stated the problem:



From what I've heard from bipolar people, your behavior during a manic phase has absolutely nothing to do with your understanding of right and wrong or the consequences of your actions. A manic person is not capable of considering those things. They are not in control of their actions.

It is not fair to impose consequences for something that someone cannot control.

I do think it is alright to say that you expect someone to apologize even though something is not intentional. If I accidentally bump into someone (even if someone accidentally shoved me into the person) I would still say excuse me as a social exercise. It does not mean it was intentional and I am apologizing for being mean. I am apologizing that the other person was affected by something (even if beyond my control.)

The law says otherwise.

There is ample precedent in both civil and criminal cases where the victims can seek - and often receive - due compensation for accidental or unintentional damages.

The kid should (1) Admit what he did, (2) express repentance, (3) apologize sincerely, (4) ask to be forgiven, and (5) offer compensation.

Otherwise, he does not deserve to be forgiven.

In criminal cases, proof that the person could not control their actions is grounds for a ruling of NGRI.

To the OP:

I am so sorry you feel judged. Remember that people try to give advice based on a few sentences of information. We've gotten all kinds here and there is no way for writers to know what you do and do not know, and what is involved in the situation beyond those few sentences. So they fill in the blanks using their own experience and imagination, and sometimes that hits the spot, and sometimes it does not.

It is a fine line teaching kids to take responsibility for their mistakes while also making sure they don't learn to feel ashamed or judged. I do expect my kids to apologize, not for being "bad," but because someone else (or something belonging to someone else) was hurt by their actions, regardless of if they could have controlled them. As someone else pointed out, society holds one accountable regardless of intentional fault. So my kids will apologize for what happened; it is a non-judgmental way of doing it; and take responsibility for "making it right." I spend a lot of time making sure they know I don't blame them, but having a bright future means brainstorming together on how to reduce future incidents. And I am part of their team to help that happen; helping them figure out how to control these things is my job, and they know I feel that way.

The OP sounds like she is upset her dh is not being more understanding about her sons problems. Maybe you are right that he is not accepting your son's diagnosis and his problems. You said your sonhad only recently been diagnosed so your dh has not really had time to come to terms with this especially when you consider how much misinformation and prejudice surrounds mental health issues. He may have been hoping your son's problems were simply a phase and would disappear as he got older and that your son would be able to lead a normal and successful life without any extra support or whatever. I know ppl with AS and bipolar can lead happy and successful lives but maybe your husband feels dubious about this when you think of all the challenges that are now ahead. His seemingly unfeeling reaction to your son may be a kind of denial of the truth of his diagnosis because he fears for your sons future. Maybe it will help you both to have someone to talk this over with and help to look more positively at the future. Maybe some sort of counselling as a family? Or talking to other parents of kids who have AS and other issues. Is there a family group you could go to? Maybe it would also help your son to look at an optimistic view of what he can achieve in the future with some help and support.

It sounds like you are the one who understands your son the best in your house. I think it's fairly common for one parent to be better informed, more involved, and more understanding than the other. That's the way it is in our family, as well. I sort of expected it because my husband has usually deferred to me on parenting decisions and approaches. He's a great father, but it is easier for him to become impatient or resentful when there is "bad" behaviour, while I am a bit slower to react and trying to figure out what is happening. On the other hand, he also reminds me to stay positive when I get worn down, and I really appreciate that.

I think it's important to sit down and talk about his feelings about parenting, as non-judgmentally as possible. Lots of parents divorce over parenting issues, particularly when there are special needs involved. Just like we do with our children, we need to express appreciation for what is going well and be understanding about feelings of frustration.

Another thing that might help him might be to share some of your knowledge about autism. It depends on the person, but when I say, "I read this... and doesn't that sound like N?" it seems to make things click. It's easier for him to hear than "she can't help it."

I've become more confident about parenting, and my husband probably gets frustrated because he doesn't know what to do. I appreciate the fact that he doesn't get physical or punishing, because that's contrary to my approach. But I know that he needs to know I'm doing something about it.

Sorry for this lengthy post... I just thought you might have some of the same experiences. In the situation you described, I would think of how I was going to handle the situation and talk to my husband about why I thought that was the right thing to do and why I didn't want to take other approaches. Now that some time has passed, how is your son feeling about what he did? Can you talk to him with your husband, saying that you know that he was more agressive than usual because of meds / mania, but that his actions have upset his father? Or is it better to talk to him yourself, and perhaps ask him to write a letter of apology (which I personally prefer to spoken apologies)?

Hope you feel better and are able to make your situation more comfortable, because problems in a marriage are never ever easier to live with.

J.

Whoknowsy, I also think your son should apologise.
I totally understand his actions were beyond his control in those instances. I also have a son, 14, who lost it on Zoloft. He took it for a number of years (and it worked well) before it started to increase his violent outbursts and it took us a while to work out that it was the Zoloft making it worse. He is also now on risperdal and doing much better. I have seen that uncontrollable rage that comes from medication issues, it's a whole different kind of uncontrollable. I totally feel for you because when we found out it was the Zoloft I just felt incredible guilt and sympathy for my son, how could we have done this to him? We are only ever trying our best to help him, sometimes it just goes wrong. Not medicating him is impossible, he wouldn't be able to be in school, or be homeschooled. Too many issues impacting his ability to function even at a basic level.
I think your husband sounds like he can't accept that your son wasn't able to control this. He needs to accept that. I agree with the others that an apology doesn't have to be for something intentional, even though your son didn't mean it, it caused lots of damage- to property and relationships. In a perfect world, I'd have them both apologising to each other and trying to get past the things that happened.
For our situation, my son didn't apologise in words, he is not able to understand that concept... But every time he trashed his room we got him to help in the tidy up.
I really wish you luck. Teamwork is really essential in helping your son and in creating a harmonious, loving home. Don't give up on asking advice here, we do all come from different situations but mostly the advice given is given with a real desire to help. xo

He did take the medication his parents and his doctor told him. So according to you he should express repentance and apologize for doing, as his parents and his doctor told him, ask his parents to forgive him that he did what they told him to do, and offer his parents compensation for the damage that occured because he did what they wanted?

There are reasons, why you shouldnt play with medics. The only thing, he should feel sorry for, is that he accepted to take those medications, because his parents told him too. If they were my parents, they could have searched for that medication in the toilette.

The law is not so simple.

There is a substantial body of law in some systems around the concept of "diminished responsibility" and many places recognize a the complete absence of responsibility in those cases when the accused was incapable of recognizing the criminal nature of the act because of mental disease or defect.

These provisions exist to recognize that a person is not morally culpable for actions undertaken when the balance of their mind was greatly disturbed, precisely as appears to have been the case in the OPs situation.

If I was given a psychoactive drug and then engaged in vandalism under the influence, I would not apologize for those actions without some recognition that they were not actions that I would freely execute. I would probably also seek redress from the people who prescribed or manufactured the medication but failed to provide adequate safegaurds against these effects.

The parents and doctors screwed over the son. Now they are asking him to admit guilt for what was done to him. This is a great recipe for building longlasting resentment and possibly hatred. I can recall being forced to capitulate to authority figures in my childhood when I never believed that justice was on their side and I lost all respect for those people and hate them to this day for abusing their authority.

A really good idea would be for the parents to apologize for chemically destablising the son's mind, then working together to rebuild the damaged home and relationships. Good will and a positive goal are more important than righteous indignation and forced obsequiousness.

If the goal is to make sure it doesn't happen again, will the apology help?

If the goal is to ensure that the seriousness of the situation is recognized, will the apology help?

If the dad wants to make sure the son feels remorse, will demanding an formal apology help?

This seems like a case of confusing the goal with a conventional symbol for the goal. It seems to me like dad has decided to have a pissing contest with son in a way that will benefit no one.

I may be totally wrong about this and ritual social behavior may be of primary importance, but I would think the question should be why are these two men insisting on sticking to their positions? Dad wants something. Son wants something. Get to the bottom of those needs and desires and there is a way forward. As it is neither of them is completely in the right (thought the son has an excuse and dad is just exhibiting typical male mammalian dominance behavior as if evolution had not graced him with a neocortex.)