Hard to Love?

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I will tell you - the "this is my only way to get through to him" is very dangerous thinking - from someone who's been there. The problem is, it's not unlikely that you will keep upping the ante. With us it was screaming and dragging my son into time-out - and we kept going for help and nobody could figure it out. When we finally did get help, things did improve - but a large portion of the change in me was backing off of that idea.

The likelihood is not that you "aren't getting through," you are simply scaring him into paralysis. It doesn't take much to do that with a child on the spectrum - and it's not teaching him what he needs to learn, it's just making him temporarily compliant.

I think you could use some outside support first, if some is available: it is a monumental task that you are taking on, and it seems to me that you are really struggling with it. Either in-home support for your son, or outside support (counseling/parenting training) for you or both. (It does help - it helped us.) If you can find someone who specializes in the spectrum, that would be best.

The sort of resistance to bedtime, etc. you describe is very normal for a spectrum child - they jut don't transition well: I like to think of it as their brains having a huge amount of momentum, and to move that momentum from one thing to another is an incredible effort for them. DS was/is also "rude" during these time, especially if doing something he likes.

One thing I would suggest - during times when things start to go badly with your son, like bedtime: stop talking. Get out a notebook and write down what you want to say to him. Keep it very simple - one or two lines. It will have the dual effect of keeping you calmer and also be easier for your child to interpret.

One of our adult members wrote an e-book that is very helpful in getting to understand what happens inside the mind of a child with AS. Keep in mind that all kids are different, so it may not address any of your specific issues - but many of us found it very valuable, and helpful in getting perspective:
http://www.asdstuff.com/grats.html

Part of the key to getting through this is information. You are understandably frustrated because your parenting roadmap is designed for a completely different kind of child. The road for this child is a long, winding one through back roads with incredible scenery. More than likely, you will still reach your destination, but it will take longer and require more effort, patience and oversight on your part to keep your child on track.

In a nutshell, no you are not supposed to just make excuses for him. What you probably will have to do is change the way you approach him about the issues that routinely cause problems. The refusing to turn off the computer is something that I would guess 95% of us here have run into. There have been various threads about this issues. What it boils down to is this; if you keep doing the same thing in an attempt to change a behavior you cannot tolerate and it isn't changing anything, don't you think it is time to switch tactics?

Bombaloo is right, but I would add one caveat (a problem my husband frequently runs into) things take longer with a kid on the spectrum. Sometimes, what looks like an exercise in futility only looks so because the change might take months or a year, where in an NT kid you might get it in one or two tries.

I have a friend with an NT daughter an an AS son, she shows me this all the time: her preschool-age daughter "got" dropping what she's doing and coming to dinner after being told about it a few times, and then punished ONCE. Her middle-school-aged AS son still struggles and has to be "helped" to the table. She is well aware that punishment will have no effect on him.

I would say that punitive tactics rarely work with a kid who either doesn't understand or isn't capable of changing his behavior at the moment.

She is wrong, you know. Being NT doesn't make her magically able to see her own mistakes, either, and we are all prone to follow the patterns we learned from our own parents. I think others in this thread have already explained why it won't work, and both of you could probably use a break and a new perspective.



Wow can I relate to some of these examples. The problem is, my son doesn't see his comments as rude. He sees them as honest. Just yesterday he was arguing with me because he had tried to be sensitive giving some feedback his sister was seeking, and had hurt his sister's feelings anyway. What he told me? "Everyone says use the golden rule, treat others as you want to be treated, and if my works sucks I want someone to tell me what I could improve on and not lie about it!" And in that sentence you can see just how ridiculously confusing all these social interactions are for an ASD child: they have no anchor for it all, because EVERYTHING about them is different. My son has come miles and miles from where he once was in just being able to see it as "what could be improved upon" instead of just what he doesn't like, but he still can't read into what the other person needs and wants, and that includes his sister who he has lived with her entire life.

We've had the eating too loud conversation, too. In fact, I think there is a whole thread somewhere on this forum about noise issues with other people eating. I think the sum up is to recognize to the ASD child that they have a valid issue, i.e. their being bothered isn't faked, but that some sensitivities are for the sensitive person to work around, and this is one of them. The brother can't change the fact that he makes noise when eating anymore than an ASD child can change being ASD, which means these are things we have to accept about other people. Your son is going to have trouble getting there because of theory of mind issues, but keep trying. Just having the conversation will help him to become more willing to do things like choose to eat alone in his room.



I found that when I conformed my son's world to his needs to the maximum extent possible, he became better able to handle the things we couldn't conform. And as he calmed down and found his place in that world we had made "safer" for him, he was able to slowly re-integrate things that had previously been challenging for him. It may feel like making excuses in the short term, but it isn't: it is creating a safe place for learning. You have to create the safe place for learning first. We've had some pretty extreme stories on this forum, but when parents have done this, really pulled in and conformed to their child's needs, they have always seen a huge change. It really is worth it and, no, it isn't a forever thing: it is what allows you to start to teach.

Finally, just hugs to you and what you have to deal with. I am prone to depression, as well, and sometimes we're a really crazy, mixed up household, but most of the time we laugh about it. What else are you going to do? Some moments have so much irony in them. All a family can do is love and accept each other anyway. Which, I guess, is why you were having so much trouble dealing with the feelings that led you to the first post: you won't mind being a mixed up family when you all feel loved and accepted, and feel that towards all the family members. You can get there, but you'll need information, and we've got lots of resources here for that.

I have been doing this when my son gets too physically rough with me. I didn't know it was an actual strategy either. I will tell him to stop hitting (or whatever thing he's doing) or else I will go in my room and be by myself. He is sensory seeking and lacks empathy and thinks it's funny to hear someone scream "OUCHHH!! !" so he will sometimes crash into me or pinch me or push me.

And to the OP: It's hard to like somebody when they're screaming and trying to bite you or intentionally pouring their drink into their soup, so I know what you mean.

ShastaMcNasty, I looked at your profile and see you're a computer programmer. I can tell you I have pragmatic issues myself that I am just beginning to understand. I had problems in my programming classes understand what my instructors were conveying because of this.

I will give an example.

I don't know what programming languages you know. I will use VB.net.

Private sub adder()

Dim x as integer
x=2

x=x+1

debug.print(x)
End Sub


When I was first learning to code I had problems understanding the concept of the assignment operator at first. The line I am talking about is x=x+1. I kept it was an equation to be solved. I couldn't figure out how x was calculated. When I solved for x I would end up with the inequality 0=1.

What I missed was that it was not an equation to be solved but an assignment expression. I was supposed to take the original contents of x which was 2 add it to 1 and put it back into x. The final value of x is 3. I took a long time and many experiments with coding to get this concept.

This might be an obvious question, but for things like turning the computer off before bed, does your son have a routine for this? Does he have a warning? What I mean is this: every night at the same time, I tell my kids they have 15 more minutes of computer time, so they need to wrap it up because it is almost time for bed. I then ask them if they are watching the time at the 10 minute and 5 minute mark. If they do not save their work and turn their computer off on their own, it is manually shut down at the power button and they lose their work. This is all done extremely matter of factly. No yelling. No arguing. Just a simple "Computers off" and off they go.

I was also having a hard time in the morning because my daughter wakes up way before she needs to in order to be ready to go to school and she wanted to play on the computer. Every day it ended up being a huge battle to get her to transition and one day she finally missed the bus. When we got home that evening and we were both calm, we talked about how hard it is for her to stop playing the computer when she is in the middle of something she really likes. I guided her to the decision that it was best she didn't play the computer in the morning. The reason this worked is because we were both calm and we talked about it together and she felt like she had some say in the matter. Now the reality is, I had already decided there would be no computer in the morning, but the important part was that she got included from her perspective.

Another thing that might give you some perspective: my son is also 11. He has gotten "mouthy" lately and has actually yelled at his teachers and boldly refused to do what they told him to do. For example, if his math teacher confronted him about not having his math done, he would yell at his teacher and storm out of the room. This is new for us. He has never been like that before. But, when we talked about this when he was calm, we were able to understand what was happening. When his teacher confronts him about not having his math done, he immediately becomes aware that he should have done his math and he forgot to do it. Then he becomes aware that his peers all have their homework done. Then he starts to get mad at himself because he feels he shouldn't have to be reminded of things like this all the time. The more his teacher pushes about the missing math assignment, the angrier he becomes. His teacher keeps trying to talk to him about it and he starts feeling trapped and stupid, so he storms out of the room.

Mind you, he looks like he is disrespecting his teacher by yelling at him and storming out of the room, but the only thing his teacher really has to do with it is that he is calling attention to the fact that my son did not do something he should have. My son's anger has nothing to do with his teacher, nor does his storming out. It has to do with being 11 years old and recognizing he is not like everyone else and coming to a greater and greater realization that this is his life: things that other kids "get" and can do, he can't. He is frustrated and angry and he lashes out as a result.

I know this doesn't parallel what you are describing in your son. But it is possible that a similar thing is going on internally with him. Social pressures are really amped up for middle school kids. A lot of NT kids crack under the pressure. For our kids, that pressure is just that much more intense.

The biggest thing I have realized that I hope will help you is this: The more defiant my kids become, the calmer I become. I do not yell. I do not launch into tirades. My speech becomes very stern, very slow, and very directive, but there is no yelling, and no arguing. They are out of control; if I allow myself to become out of control, then no one is in control and there is no hope for a good outcome. It takes discipline and, yes, sometimes I do take my own time out. Because the truth is, I have not yet found a time when loosing my cool and yelling lead to any long term positive results.

Good luck to you and your wife. I will leave you with the words a dear friend of mine once said to me. I hold on to them in times when I feel like I might snap "The testament of a mother's love is in her ability to love her kids the most when they deserve it the least." I sometimes repeat this again and again in my head. It anchors me and reminds me of what my role is.

Interesting problem! one of the first things they pointed out in one of my first CS courses was "People are going to mess this up a ton of times- if you are checking 'does X=3?' you have just made a mistake because X=3 means ASSIGN THE VALUE OF 3 TO X!" checking the value of X to see if it is 3 would be done like this: X==3. That's just the notation (in Java, C++ and yes, VB dot net)

My son is going to be taking an HTML course over the summer.. I wonder if he'll run into any conceptual problems like that?

Sounds like exactly the type of suggestions we have been getting from his therapist. Even before any diagnosis, his first pediatrician always emphasized how important consistency is for kids (especially difficult kids). We then went to see Dr. Stanley Turecki (Author of The Difficult Child) and he taught us that besides consistency, it is important to be concrete and state things explicitly and even put them on paper. His idea for a Homework contract got us through 4th grade with our sanity somewhat intact.


It's funny because it seems you are describing every interaction my son has with his mother. He gets more and more worked up and angry the longer the discusson goes (30 seconds is the longest he can really tolerate) and tries to storm out but my wife won't let him. Her approach is to yell "Get back in here" whereas mine might be to lightly hold his shoulder and get down to eye level to complete the discussion. Though lately, the phrase "Don't you dare touch me!" has ruined that approach.
I never thought of his anger and annoyance stemming from his own knowlege that he is in the wrong ofr anger at himself for not doing what he knows he has to do. I really would need to think about that, because it just doesn't seem to match my son's profile: he blames everybody else for what has gone wrong, never himself, even to the point of insisting his teacher spontaneously made up a report/assignment, whereas she states she assigned it weeks before and had given out a sheet which disappeared into the black hole of a knapsack my son keeps.


And therein lies the sadness of this post - the more difficult he becomes, the more difficult we find it to show him any love. and it cycles from there, because if a kid doesn't feel loved, why would he follow any rules he sees as random and unfair?

I appreciate that suggestion (as well as all the others!) - certainly timeout never really worked for him, but it might do wonders for me. Also the poster who suggested writing down my responses instead of saying them - I have used that a number of times for my own problems.

Imagine for a moment that EVERY SINGLE verbal interaction your son has is missing something like that second equals sign in the notation. Some small thing that contains the crux of the information.

It is likely that your son is missing some or all of the social cues, the "givens" that provide information beyond the words: context, facial expression, tone of voice, word choice, body position, gestures like pointing, etc. etc. Cues like that are often missed - unless they are turned up to "11" (which is why anger works for him - he can SEE it. I know a lot of kids on the spectrum who deliberately annoy people, I think just to get feedback they can process.)

We do a lot of written contracts with my son - they really work. Your therapist is right in that your son needs explicit directions, preferably written.

It isn't unreasonable to assume your son is externalizing his anger at himself and that is why he blames everybody else - after all, if nobody can explain to him (from his perspective, of course - since he isn't processing all the information) what he's supposed to be doing, either everybody's expectations are wrong or he is somehow fundamentally at fault.

Be glad he's externalizing - I know it doesn't seem like a blessing but when my son started to go the other direction, we wound up in the ER. I don't wish a suicidal child on anyone (much less the child.) Those were very dark days.

It's not easy. That's why sometimes I need to keep reminding myself about it.

My son does often outwardly blame others for things. Especially when he is really mad. He will insist the teacher did not tell him there was homework, for example. But when we talk about it when he is calm, he knows the truth: every single day, the teacher writes the math homework on the same place on the board. But when he is upset, that just makes him even more frustrated and upset. Because he knows he should have looked at the board and written it down. He knows that. But he didn't do it. And he really can't come up with a valid reason why he didn't do it. S he becomes furious. And so the frustration builds and I do believe there is quite a bit of desperation built into it. More and more is expected, but he hasn't even mastered last year's expectations, ykwim? How the heck is he ever going to catch up? Sometimes I do think it is out of self-protection or self-preservation that he lashes out and blames others. Who wants to be wrong all the time? Especially when you really can't seem to help it and keep doing it over and over again?

But in a way, my son is lucky. When I was a kid and had the same problems, I was repeatedly told that I was lazy, undisciplined, unmotivated, etc. I was told that it was my fault, willful, and that I could control it if I wanted to. It had a very damaging effect on my self-esteem and it took me decades to counteract it. At least my son has a mom who understands that he is not lazy and unmotivated. He has executive functioning problems that are not simply going to be fixed by wishful thinking, trying harder, or being "good." He needs help from me to learn to find ways to work around it.

Of course, not all tween boys are the same. My daughter does not see herself at fault for anything and everything is someone else's fault. This is not a defense mechanism in her. It is her perception. So it is possible you son is nothing like mine. I just wanted to share it because it wasn't obvious until we were really able to sit down and talk it through.

Your wife (and you) might want to consider letting him walk away when he tries to leave. As he gets older, if he has anger management problems, sometimes the best skill to learn is to leave the situation before you do something (violence) that you cannot undo. Perhaps you could consider having him request to end the discussion, and then take it up again when you are both calm and able to discuss instead of yell. My son has learned to say "I am feeling overwhelmed. I need a break." We had to start by first helping him identify his own warning signs that he was getting overwhelmed, because to him, his experience seemed to be like going from 1-100 in a split second. He is still not always that good at it and sometimes he still needs help asking for a break. They are also working with my daughter on this at school: self-identification of escalation. For her, they are helping her recognize it in herself and others. She misses the signs in her peers and so often they have given her plenty of nonverbal cues and she has missed them all, so by the time they blow, she thinks it was out of the blue.

Momsparky's analogy above is spot on. When you come to understand that at a deep level, I think it becomes easier to love them, even when they don't deserve it.

I really want to emphasize the, "let him walk away" point InThisTogether made. ASD kids cannot HANDLE certain situations, and the only result will be escalation into meltdown. You will get absolutely nowhere trying to get through to him when he is agitated, upset or angry. I think most of us parents on here have concluded this over time. While you have a need to make sure he has heard you, he has a need to maintain self-control, and you are in extreme danger of pushing past the ability to control himself by forcing him to stay in an overload situation.

My son for years at school, at home and at scouts has had blanket permission to leave any and every situation to calm himself down whenever necessary. The exchange is simple: a promise to come back and discuss things quietly and logically once able to, even if that isn't for another day. You aren't letting him drop it forever; just until he is ready to handle the discussion.

An idea to think about. If confrontation has been the mode of operation your son has faced for years, he will have developed this sense that people are always stressing him, forcing him to stay in situations he can't handle. That will feed his "its everyone else's fault" complex. You have to remember that he isn't seeing any of these interactions the way you do, and ASD kids who don't know they are ASD and haven't be given the supports and training often fall into the pattern you are currently seeing: the only conclusion their logic allows them to reach is that everyone else is messed up. Nobody understands them, nobody hears them, everybody acts illogically, no one says what they mean but speak in code, and so on. He's lost trust in anyone else's ability to understand or care about him, and that needs to be restored before you can teach him how to understand someone else's perspective.

I just really wish someone had come to the right label sooner. Knowing hands you keys, and it sounds like you've been missing those for a long time. Please read, read and read so that you can understand how his mind works, and then spend time building that trust, so that he will believe people can actually help him. It will be difficult to make progress until you've erased most of the patterns of the past.