don't punish for being autistic, however...

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What the last poster mentioned about TV and radio is something to look into. My son loved TV, or so he thought, until he agreed to participate in a turn off week at school. It was then he realized how much it actually set him off, even though he enjoyed the content. We kept it off for years and then only brought it back slowly and in limited amounts. Made a difference.

Truth is, most people are happier and healthier without it.

I'm going to go against--well...pretty much everyone--and say that my son would have had a consequence for that behavior. He is 11. My main reasons are: 1) I am absolutely certain he knows that talking back like that is unacceptable and 2) I am also absolutely certain he understands about respecting other people's requests. If I was not absolutely certain about those two things, I might feel differently.

BUT, here are some things that would have been different: First of all, ok...I have to back up a bit and explain that his dad doesn't live with us at this moment in time, so I am talking about in the past...anyway, if a conversation was started between my son and his dad, I would not interject. So, when your son said "no" to your husband, I think it is best that your husband continue the interaction with a firm redirection. Sometimes this doesn't go that smoothly because there may be differing opinions of how to handle the situation, but IMO, you take that up between the two of you and make a plan for the next time something similar happens, away from the kid. I do know that with my kids' dad, often times when he says/does something that I am not in agreement with, once I let the emotions pass and I talk to him about it, why I was concerned, and what I think might have worked better, we can usually come to some kind of agreement.

So, let's take the fact that there were two adults involved in the interaction out of the equation and pretend that it was my son who said "No" to me when I asked him to be quiet because I couldn't hear the TV--another sidebar...the way the request is worded, including tone, is EXTREMELY important in this house, so I don't know how your husband said it, but if I were to say that in a disrespectful tone or with a raised voice, I would be setting the situation up to end badly--but if I respectfully asked him to please be quiet (for me it would sound like "XX, do you need help with something?" (no) "Ok, then please quiet down. There is something important on the news that I would like to hear.") and he was intentionally defiant, I would say--very calmly and matter-of-factly "Your response was rude. You either need to be quiet until you get to the other room (wherever he was headed), or you will go to your room without your computer." If he then would have responded "I don't have to" I would respond "This is your last reminder" (which is my kids' cue that a consequence is about to happen) and then if he would have said "I don't care" then he would have been escorted to his room. My daughter sometimes still gets time-outs and we use the 1-minute-per-year of age, but to be honest, my son doesn't need time outs anymore because we never get past the "reminder" stage, so I don't know how long I'd make him stay in there. But he would stay in there until we were able to discuss what happened and come to an agreement regarding expected behavior.

Because your son earned his computer time, I don't know if I would take it away all together. But I do think I would delay it.

I get that he/they have neurological issues that make certain things harder for them. I don't want it to seem like I am not sensitive to that. And I also think that it is important to make sure they really understand what is expected and are able to do it. But once the expectation is clear and the ability has been demonstrated, I hold him accountable for his choices, just the same as I would hold any other human being accountable. Now, in near meltdown mode, these things don't apply...my son can't be expected to make rational, thought-out choices in meltdown mode or near meltdown mode so if that is the kind of circumstance we are in, I don't hold him to the same level of expectations. But one thing I can tell you, is he has gotten more "mouthy" since hitting the pre-teen years. I do know that that doesn't just happen to atypical kids...it's kind of universal. But he is not going to get a free pass on willful defiance and willful disobedience because he is hardwired in a way that makes some of this stuff less "automatic" for him. I still expect him to abide by agreed upon family rules.

I'm starting to ramble as I sometimes do and I think I am getting further and further from explaining what I mean, so I'll try one more thing: Sometimes I notice people on the spectrum can be rude, not because they mean to be, but because they don't yet understand the social subtleties that would aid them in making a different choice. I find that most of the time, when you can give concrete feedback that explains exactly which "rule" was broken, why others find breaking that rule offensive, and what a more socially acceptable response would look like, most of the time the feedback is appreciated and the person uses it to demystify another "mystery" of the NT social landscape. However, there are times when the person willfully persists in being rude, even when they understand that what they are doing is rude. This, of course causes others to view them negatively and sets into motion a whole series of reactions that leads to negative results. I have to say I don't have any more sympathy for someone on the spectrum who knows they are being rude and chooses not to stop than I do for an NT person who knows they are being rude and chooses not to stop. We all need to take accountability for the impact our behavior has on others. I feel that as a parent, it is my job to help my kids learn the rules that they will be expected to follow to get along in society. Some they can't really control (for example, my son loses eye contact when he is feeling overwhelmed and it is not because he is choosing not to use it. He can't help it) and those...well...all I can do is help them to understand that there will always be ignorant people and not to internalize their ignorance. But some things they can learn to compensate for, but it takes hard work on our parts. We have to figure out how to make it make sense to them. We have to be forgiving of early mistakes, but eventually, there does have to be consequences.

I apologize for the ramble. I guess I am morphing into mini-manic mode again.

I'll stop typing now.

InThisTogether, thanks. I love long replies, so no worries there. So let's see. I don't really know if he knows he's being disrespectful or rude. Almost every time I tell him he is, he argues and says no he's not. I've explained that it seems as if he doesn't really know what it means to be rude, so when I tell him he is being rude, it's not like he can say no he's not. He might say he doesn't mean to be or he didn't know he was being rude, but it can't just say he's not. Well I mean he can say it, it's not like I can duct tape his mouth shut or anything, but what I mean is it's wrong. I've said to him that I will never ever lie to him about when he's doing something rude and when he's not, and that I even have a pretty loose definition of it compared to a lot of people, and that when I tell him, it's to help him so he can try to see it for himself at some point. And since the autism dx I've been a lot more concrete about what exactly is rude about whatever the behavior is.

I think there have been 2 times in the last year when I've said "doing behavior x is rude and you should try to not do it" that he's said "oh, really, I didn't know." The rest of the times he gets super angry and says it's not rude, I'm rude for telling him he's being rude, he gets to decide what rude is, not me, etc etc etc. I can stop it by saying I'm going to give a consequence, most of the time - sometimes it will escalate a lot more but most of the time he'll do one or two more rude statements and then give up. Or I can stop it by just ignoring it. If I quit telling him he needs to stop doing whatever it is, he'll quit arguing about it. He might quit doing whatever it was that made me tell him he's being rude or he might not.

I almost think that being on the spectrum means it's MORE important to give a consequence than it would be for an NT who I can tell "dude, rude" and who would understand me and at least silently agree due to an actual understanding of what it means to be rude and not argue as much and maybe sometimes not argue at all... because how else can I make him understand that he should stop that behavior, when explaining it seemingly has zero effect? I'll try to use an example from behaviorism that isn't crude and doesn't compare him to an animal - let's say I have a rubber band on my wrist and I snap myself whenever I catch myself doing something I want to stop doing... I feel like it needs to be something like that - a quick punishment/consequence that's pretty aversive, like a shock collar on a dog, ugh. Taking away computer time gets him so so so upset and causes so much debate and arguing and begging that it seems like he has no recollection of the initial precipitating event. And I can tell him and remind him of why it happened, but it doesn't seem quick enough to make an impression. I guess I just have to be super fast and to the point.

Regarding the husband... My husband and I are having some serious issues - maybe I should just do a new post. Yeah, good idea.

I reread this post in the context of your other post, and here is what I think:

Your husband does not understand vocal stimming. You have to explain to him that your son has trouble controlling this. I don't know how many TVs you have, but if he really wants to watch a program without being disturbed, as opposed to it being a family social thing then maybe he should watch TV where he is less likely to be disturbed. Otherwise, he has to understand, this can happen. My son interrupts us to script, and make noises and ask questions, and we are in the process of helping him control the parts that are controllable. Your husband does not have the experience, yet, to know when this is possible, or what tone to take.

That said, yeah, your son has to learn a better way to communicate, but that is an ongoing process. Also, based on your other post, I think with your husband back from Afghanistan for 10 months, I don't know if they have had enough time to adjust to interacting with each other this much. Some of this may go better once your husband calms down, and they get a better rapport. Right now they may be feeding off each other in unhealthy ways from an aggravation standpoint.