24 month old doesn't like "people" figures in cars

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Teaching your child conformist play, does not mean your child will conform in real life. If he is autistic, there is a tendency to want to do your own thing, your own way, regardless.

Here is an example: My son has few interests that overlap with other kids'. He does have two big interests that do. One is a popular computer/mobile game and the other is a popular kids movie from a couple of years ago. This does not mean that he will talk about these things at the socially "optimal" times. That is a completely different skill.

One kid could even be talking about my son's favorite video game and my son at that moment might not want to talk about it right then, and might want to talk endlessly about the movie he likes. Talking about or playing what he wants is way more important to him than reciprocity and friendship. You cannot force that. They either are willing to put aside their own preferences to play with others or they are not and will reluctantly deal with the consequences, even when they do not understand. The best that you can do is make it so they understand the true opportunity costs of their choices, and try to give them flexibility and teach them give and take.

IMO reciprocity and rigidity are the obstacles in this type of case, more so than playing the "right way." Also you are assuming that the other kids will care if he puts figurines in the vehicles or not. When kids play together they often play different parts of a whole. If he is willing to leave other kids' vehicles alone, and play with his without figurines other kids probably won't care. I would be more worried that what you are modeling is that it is OK to interfere in someone else's play. (Taking the figurines out of other kids' cars would be the mirror image of what you are doing) Kids on the spectrum (assuming yours is) like to script things and make others go along, with what they are doing. Modeling a live and let live type of play would actually be beneficial in that respect. Just a thought...

Again, I am not saying what you are doing is terrible, only that of all the goals to work on, it sounds super odd to me. I am not saying it would necessarily be counterproductive, but it would not be my focus. How does he play with other kids? Is it parallel play?

ASDMommyASDKid, thank you for the explanation - I do see a lot of logic to what you are saying. And yes, he is currently doing parallel play with his peers at daycare and I guess his shadows are trying to initiate some associative play with his peers - not sure how successful this has been so far but he is quite young.

Not to split hairs here but isn't the "a live and let live" approach the opposite of EI by definition?

What would your be primary recommendation for a 24 month old based on your experience with you son? (we truly, truly are new to this).

Have you ever watched the Transformers? Or the Pixar movies Cars and Planes?

Most car/plane etc toys don't come with little pilots anyway.

PigsTail, I am surprised about everyone's reactions too. Please don't feel badly. What your therapists are suggesting is EXTREMELY COMMON for children diagnosed at a young age (many people on this site have children with aspergers who may not have been diagnosed until slightly older). My son was just starting to talk at 24 months also. Children at 24 months who are developing typically usually do "realistic play" on their way to imaginative play (feeding a doll first mimicking what they see then developing that further into playing house). Since children see people getting into cars all the time, most typically developing children would think nothing of putting a figure into a car, so that is all they are trying to model. The therapists are also likely trying to combat too much rigidity. The ability to be somewhat flexible will be a skill that is important later in life. In school, they will have fire drills, field trips, special activities etc… that will change the normal routine. Children that have difficulty communicating can cling to rigid routine/play because it is comforting and predictable. Incorporating some flexibility in a safe environment (home/daycare) may help with flexibility in other environments too. The fact that your son was comfortable with putting people into cars/houses but now seems to be reverting back may be an indicator of stress (we go back to the things we are comfortable with/ find soothing when stressed). Maybe consider whether anything has changed recently that might be increasing stress levels??

Yes, good point and it definitely would not bother us if he sometimes played only with the vehicles but he does it all.the.time - the little people always get thrown out.

Pigstail,

I can see where you would get defensive. Wrong Planet is kind of a unique place in that it is mostly populated by actual people on the spectrum. The parents' board is a mix of NT parents, parents who are on the spectrum, parents who are NT but have some spectrum traits, and spectrum non-parents from the other part of the board who pop in to advise us based on their experiences, and sometimes who pop in because a particular subject appeals to them, or reminds them of bad things from their childhood.

Those of us on the spectrum, or who have many spectrum traits, tend to be direct because Aspies generally are direct and blunt. So take that into account as you read.

We also, like anyone else, has different opinions, and our kids are very different from each other despite being on the spectrum.

In my mind, speaking only for myself, EI does not mean micromanaging every aspect of childhood, so I see no contradiction between pursuing EI and yet letting your son play his own way, too. There is room for both. There is no generic advice that makes sense for a 24 month old. It depends on specific strneghts and weaknesses. In our case, in terms of play, when my son was that age, we mainly interacted with him on his terms, gently introducing new things to gauge receptivity and to address rigidity. We were also advised (by a nurse at the peds office) to make him work on "tea set" play and feeding his stuffed animals.

I tried it (we substituted grill play; we grill, but we don't host tea parties) He thought we were ridiculous. Stuffed animals don't eat, and fake food isn't real food, right? I figured he was probably smarter than we were and I backed off. I would reintroduce it periodically b/c the nurse scared me just enough so I would not completely bag it. The thing is, "abnormal" play did not make my son autistic. It was a symptom, nothing else. If I had succeeded in making him do that dopey stuff, he would not have ended up less autistic.

He eventually did pretend to feed animals (With a vet toy set) and it turns out that pretend pizza parties were something he would be willing to do(not grill or tea party), as long as we talked about fractions as we played. Looking back on it, I wish I hadn't let the nurse scare me about play so much, b/c he does tons of "creative" play, now and I personally doubt that occasionally tricking him into pretending to feed a stuffed animal helped. I think he grew into it, and the only thing I might have changed was just providing various models of possible things to do.

Personally, I would focus on whatever his absolute favorite special interest is, and expanding it to become more interactive. That was what I did, because in our case the big obstacle was (and is) letting others join in and contribute their own play components. That was what I focused on b/c that was a goal that made sense to us. He used to freak out when I would attempt to change one of his scripts but I would propose it gently and back off when he freaked out. Now, he will let me make proposals, and either accept or reject them, with no big deal made. That for us, is a good deal of progress.

So, I would focus more on playing with the vehicles with him. Will he let you control one of them while he controls another? See if you can collaborate on play scenarios. Move on to see if he lets you put a figurine in the car you control. Create a joint play scene. That to me, would be more useful, but you have to be the one to decide what goals are most meaningful to your son. That was why I asked why the goal was picked. You really want to think about what the most important things are and work on those. It is easy to focus on the small stuff, especially if people are freaking you out about it,but it is not necessarily productive to do so.

Edited to change 24 yr to 24 month---oops--My son is talking to me while I type

Will he let you control one of them while he controls another?

Yes, he actually encourages this. He doesn't ever want to play alone, we always get pulled over (the house has been a complete mess in the last 2 months, iykwim )

Move on to see if he lets you put a figurine in the car you control.

We can do this - he doesn't really care as long as there are no folks in his vehicles.

And we create scenes/ play schemes all the time (which is not always the easiest thing to do but that's a whole other topic) and he will like a whole bunch of them and look/observe while it is happening and then just revert back to his own way of playing, i.e. pushing the car along the floor, saying "go, go, go" ( ABA taught him that) without any people in it.

I guess we are working on the rigidity of him not having the people in the cars, the same way I would have worked on opening doors/leaving doors open if all he wanted to do is close doors - luckily that lasted all of two days in our case and then he "moved on." I don't mean to offend anybody on this board and I do understand the wide variety of the audience here, I am just trying to help my son develop some flexibility because life as I know it would be unbearably difficult (I think) if one was to have no flexibility.

This seems like a good point to me and I had to think really hard if anything has been stressing him out lately and besides a minor cold, I can't think of anything in his environment that has changes or may have caused him some stress. I will keep my eyes peeled thought.

This is what I have been thinking while following this thread. I've always thought it was much better mental health-wise to meet the child where they are and then gently lead them in the direction you want them to go. You are very, very worried about him because what he is doing is not typical. You are still in that early time where it's been confirmed that your child is not just different, but drastically different, and you've probably been exposed to lots of horror stories about outcomes and have not worked through the natural grief that comes from being told what all your child will not do. We don't go into parenting with the ideas of limits that our child will have on the outcomes of his life, and at that age we aren't really prepared it hear it all of a sudden. It sort of initiates parental panic mode backed by a strong dose of anger and sadness, maybe determination that those stories will not be what happens to out child. It can maybe lead to the focus on one tiny thing that by golly if my son can do this one thing then everything will turn out all right. Or maybe that was just me when my oldest was two.

Let me tell a story. A little boy really liked to draw. He liked to draw flowers in particular. He went to first grade and the teacher told the class to draw a flower. He was excited, because he drew the best flowers! He drew a whole garden of flowers of all shapes and colors. Most of them were flowers that had only been seen before in his imagination. He proudly showed his teacher, who promptly marked a large red sad face on his paper and told him that flowers were only supposed to look like the single red daisy in her vase on her desk. The assignment was not to draw that flower, but the boy noticed that the only children that got smiley faces were the ones that drew single flowers in vases. Every week there was an assignment to draw whatever flower you wanted, and for weeks and weeks the boy continued to draw the flowers he imagined and continued to receive sad faces. The other kids laughed at him for always having the sad face. Finally, he stopped drawing the flowers he imagined and only drew the red daisy in a vase sitting on the teacher's desk. Then the boy moved to a new school and the teacher told the class to draw a flower from their imagination. Any flower they wanted. She didn't have a red daisy in a vase on her desk, and she assured the boy that as long as he drew something on the page he'd get a big smiley face. The other children were drawing imagination fueled flower gardens. He picked up his crayon and drew--a red daisy in a vase on a desk.

The outcome I see with my 13 year old that I was always concerned with doing things the "right way" when he was a toddler and preschooler is a boy who will not think for himself. He is extremely prompt dependent. He is so prompt dependent that I seriously worry whether he will ever be able to manage life without someone available to prompt him! It is partially his nature. He was always pretty passive and willing to do what he was told, but I can definitely see some areas where my insistence on the "right way" has made him unwilling or nervous to try new things or to offer up solutions.

Also remember that with a child with a communication disorder that what we are trying to say to them is not always what they hear or take away from the exchange. You are trying to say, "Hey look, son, there are people all around us and they are pretty cool. So cool that we should be interested in them and what they are doing and want to be like them." What he may be hearing with this and the inevitable continuing micromanagement of his play and life is "I am wrong. What I like is wrong. I am not good enough. I disappoint my parents and make them sad. What I like makes my mommy and daddy sad, so I can't be myself. I have to wait to be told what I like." Where if you at least sometimes join him where he is the message is that "I am okay. I can like the things that like. My mommy and daddy like me." Then adding a small change comes at the child from a position of trust. He trusts that you like him and that it is okay for him to like himself, and the exchange may go like this in his emotions. "Oh look they added something to the game. That might make me nervous because it's different, so I'm just going to keep an eye on it for while to see if it hurts anything. Oh. That didn't hurt anything. Maybe I can do that sometimes too, but it's still okay for me to play the way I like to, too."

I feel like it is important for all children, NT or not to have some time purely to themselves to play with their toys in any way they want to. And for parents to join them where they are. It validates the child's experiences. But I think this is especially important for a child in EI. They spend many, many hours every week being told explicitly what to do and what to think. They NEED downtime even more than a child with no delays. An ASD child needs to be able to stim in peace, to use stereotypic play in their safe place, because those things do make them feel safe and secure, and feeling safe is very near the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy of needs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_h ... y_of_needs). Only physical existence is below it. And you cannot grow through the upper reaches of that pyramid if the base levels are not provided for.

This is so sad. I fear this so much. I never want to kill my son's spirit, regardless of any of the rest of it.

This sounds really good. So good, that I am going to ask what is probably a really stupid question. Remember how I said all kids on the spectrum are different? I am trying to remember back to the old 2 yr old milestones, and I don't know that your child is (very, if at all) delayed in play? I don't mean he is not quirky, but I mean delayed. My child was very behind, in this, so I don't quite recall what the actual definition of delayed play is at that point. We were so far away from it. Best I remember was, they were supposed to be transitioning from parallel to cooperative play and engaging in reciprocal, creative play. They are also supposed to use toys as intended, and I think "go, go, go" with the vehicles (people inside or not) lines up well. I think they are also supposed to be starting to pretend to be other things/people. (I forgot to ask you about that one) If he is not doing that, you could try modelling pretending to be one of his favorite things/people to see if he will imitate.

I guess what I am saying is you can be autistic without clinically "delayed" play. it is not fundamental to the diagnosis, although it is common. It does not mean you don't use play to teach and model other things, but maybe correcting play itself is not a fundamental goal for him. If one of his fundamental issues is rigidity, there are any number of ways to work on that. It doesn't have to be specifically people in cars. You can try for lower hanging fruit. Look to see what he is more receptive to changing and go slow.

From what you say, it sounds like he is "using you as a tool" in the course of his play, which maybe means he needs to be encouraged to do things on his own. (The using people as a tool thing, is a thing we had in spades. He used to have me cut up shapes, letters and numbers out of construction paper b/c he was afraid his would not look perfect enough. He would lead me places instead of asking for things... etc. He still does this sometimes) By encouraged, I literally mean that. Don't stop doing things for him, but tell him you know he can do it, and try to see how much he can do, KWIM?

I guess what I am trying to help you with, is to figure what he needs the most help on, and focus on that. All kids, even ones on the spectrum are really different from each other in a lot of ways. Try thinking about what his strengths and weaknesses really are. Play might be a strength that you can access for other things.

I had no idea they are supposed to pretend to be other things/people. So if his favorite thing is cars, should I pretend to be a car and see if he’d copy me? I am totally up for it just wanted to make sure that’s what you are suggesting.

Otherwise, he is pretty good at copying. He will see us do something and find it neat and then he’ll do it from time to time – for example, his dad was trying to close the door to his big toy car ( the ones a toddler goes into to walk around in) but was holding his baby brother in his hands so his daddy used his foot to close the door – well ever since then he’s been closing the door to that car with his foot…it’s kind of funny.

He will also feed the baby, bathe the baby, make a sandwich, cut the toy pizza, cut the toy cake, blow the candle, all of that. He is a pretty compliant kid lately, so much so that now I am worried about what MiahClone wrote about.

Definitely yes to the using us as a tool thing. He learned to say “help me” and we were initially over the moon excited but he has now started to abuse it and we have been doing what you suggested – acknowledging that he is asking for our help but telling him “ but why don’t you try,” “you can do it yourself, give it a try and then I’ll help,” etc.

Strengths – cognitive abilities, receptive language, analytical thinking, curiosity, love to “help” (wants to throw things out for us, wipe the table, help clean the dishes, put the laundry in the laundry machine, etc)

Weaknesses – doesn’t know how to play with his peers, doesn’t have any original play ideas, gets “stuck” (rigidity) in play schemes, extreme shyness, extreme resistance to trying new things (OT has helped a bit with that), expressive language

I pulled up some CDC goals: (Remember I don't have a perfect memory) (The pretending to be something/someone is a later goal--so you don't have to concern yourself with it, right now--It sounds to me like you are on track, as far as play, but others whose kids were not as far off as mine might have better input) (Also remember with a lot of these play goals--at a point it is supposed to be spontaneous vs. just imitative)

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/actearly/mile ... s-2yr.html

What most babies do at this age:

Social and Emotional

Copies others, especially adults and older children
Gets excited when with other children
Shows more and more independence
Shows defiant behavior (doing what he has been told not to)
Plays mainly beside other children, but is beginning to include other children, such as in chase games

Language/Communication

Points to things or pictures when they are named
Knows names of familiar people and body parts
Says sentences with 2 to 4 words
Follows simple instructions
Repeats words overheard in conversation
Points to things in a book



Cognitive (learning, thinking, problem-solving)

Finds things even when hidden under two or three covers
Begins to sort shapes and colors
Completes sentences and rhymes in familiar books
Plays simple make-believe games
Builds towers of 4 or more blocks
Might use one hand more than the other
Follows two-step instructions such as “Pick up your shoes and put them in the closet.”
Names items in a picture book such as a cat, bird, or dog

Movement/Physical Development

Stands on tiptoe
Kicks a ball
Begins to run
Climbs onto and down from furniture without help
Walks up and down stairs holding on
Throws ball overhand
Makes or copies straight lines and circles

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/actearly/mile ... s-3yr.html

What most babies do at this age:

Social and Emotional

Copies adults and friends
Shows affection for friends without prompting
Takes turns in games
Shows concern for crying friend
Understands the idea of “mine” and “his” or “hers”
Shows a wide range of emotions
Separates easily from mom and dad
May get upset with major changes in routine
Dresses and undresses self

Communication

Follows instructions with 2 or 3 steps
Can name most familiar things
Understands words like “in,” “on,” and “under”
Says first name, age, and sex
Names a friend
Says words like “I,” “me,” “we,” and “you” and some plurals (cars, dogs, cats)
Talks well enough for strangers to understand most of the time
Carries on a conversation using 2 to 3 sentences

Cognitive (learning, thinking, problem-solving)

Can work toys with buttons, levers, and moving parts
Plays make-believe with dolls, animals, and people
Does puzzles with 3 or 4 pieces
Understands what “two” means
Copies a circle with pencil or crayon
Turns book pages one at a time
Builds towers of more than 6 blocks
Screws and unscrews jar lids or turns door handle

Movement/Physical Development

Climbs well
Runs easily
Pedals a tricycle (3-wheel bike)
Walks up and down stairs, one foot on each step

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/actearly/mile ... s-4yr.html




What most babies do at this age:

Social and Emotional

Enjoys doing new things
Plays “Mom” and “Dad”
Is more and more creative with make-believe play
Would rather play with other children than by himself
Cooperates with other children
Often can’t tell what’s real and what’s make-believe
Talks about what she likes and what she is interested in

Language/Communication

Knows some basic rules of grammar, such as correctly using “he” and “she”
Sings a song or says a poem from memory such as the “Itsy Bitsy Spider” or the “Wheels on the Bus”
Tells stories
Can say first and last name

Child throwing ball

Cognitive (learning, thinking, problem-solving)

Names some colors and some numbers
Understands the idea of counting
Starts to understand time
Remembers parts of a story
Understands the idea of “same” and “different”
Draws a person with 2 to 4 body parts
Uses scissors
Starts to copy some capital letters
Plays board or card games
Tells you what he thinks is going to happen next in a book

Movement/Physical Development

Hops and stands on one foot up to 2 seconds
Catches a bounced ball most of the time
Pours, cuts with supervision, and mashes own food

Well that makes total sense to me.
Your son is the pilot and driver of the vehicles, because of course he is the one moving them and making them go. He doesn't want a fake co-pilot or someone else being the driver, because that's HIS job. Doing so would ruin the fun for him.
Maybe I'm off base here, but that's what I would think!

I didn't mean to be too scary. I'm sorry. It actually sounds like you DO play with him where he's at quit a bit. In fact it sounds like he plays pretty well. I don't think any of my kids would play that well at 24 months. Then again, I am not that good at play myself. It's great that he's imitating things like the door closing!

I get to rambling and end up sounding more dire than I mean to. I guess my boiled down point is that he needs some time every day to just be who he is, where if he's not destroying anything or endangering anyone, he can do whatever he wants whether it's playing with a car with no figure in it or sticking and unsticking tape to his fingers over and over (a favorite of my oldest as a toddler and preschooler). Even if what he wants to do is weird or even kind of embarrassing. (It's sort of hard to brag that your child's prime choice of self entertainment is sticking tape to his fingers for hours).

You also have an advantage with having that baby coming along behind your little guy. My two oldest are 15 months apart and honestly, the oldest's greatest therapy over the years has been being challenged by his little brother. His brother taught him all the important things in life like arguing with your parents (standing up for yourself), being flexible (dealing with an unpredictable, impulsive ADHD sibling constantly), social skills (little brother is a social chameleon compared to the rest of us, so continuous example). Assuming your little one is not also ASD, there is all that to look forward to. (and even the annoying things like learning to argue are valuable to child development)

OK this is how my mother STILL talks to me and I am 42.

Could you please tell me what words I can use to get her to let me be myself without upsetting her and making her feel like she is a bad mother?