Oh, that dreaded "line"

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Please be very, very, very, careful about assuming that intelligence can make up for executive functioning problems..

My dad made those same kinds of assumptions about me when I was a young adult, started yelling at me everday and lecturing me about how things worked in the real world (I was already aware of these things). All he accomplished was to teach me that my best would never be good enough for him, to hurt me so deeply and so badly that I almost hated him, to encourage me (unintentionally, I'm sure) to feel bad about myself, and to make me afraid of him.

At 12 years old, nothing really helped me keep track of my homework or notes. In fact, even now that I'm well into my twenties, it would be a miraculous success if I manage to use an organizational system like the one you have set up for your son 50% of the time. I do my best, and I do care about where my bills and receipts and bank statements and forms end up (and when I was in post-secondary I did care about where my notes and painstakingly written papers ended up), but no matter how much I care and no matter how hard I try I can't just make it happen so that I'm actually organized to the level that I would like to be (even with support, instruction, and medication...without all those things it would be a miraculous success if I could ever manage to use any organizational system).

Of course, I am not your son and may be nothing like him but I am an example of a person with autism and ADHD for whom it really is that hard.

Last edited by animalcrackers on 12 Oct 2013, 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I missed this part first time through the thread....that must be maddeningly confusing for you.

Have you ever asked him if he can explain the different answers he gives?

Could it be that his emotions wreak havoc on his self-assessment (and/or on his actual abilities...which could mean sometimes he can and sometimes he actually can't do the exact same thing)?

Shouldn't your child be making progress under response to intervention? I thought if he didn't, that meant more adult help was needed and that the school district that put in place the response to intervention program should be looking at how to do that. Wondering how long he has been in this and whether you feel it is helping?

I don't want to is often the same as this is too hard. Sometimes true, sometimes maybe child can do more. But perhaps he is resisting because the bar is set too high for him to achieve right now.

Situation must be so frustrating for your child, and for you! I would look for what he can do well and support that.

Last edited by Waterfalls on 12 Oct 2013, 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"I don't want to do it because it is too hard" isn't that different from "I can't do it."

There is a limited amount of push a person has in them on any given day. Once you've exceeded it, then the hard things may as well be impossible.

I would consider asking him to list all the things he does in a day that he considers "hard" or "too hard" and to consider how he prioritizes among them. Maybe that prioritizing process can be simplified. Maybe you can temporarily take over a skill or two that he seems to have mastered, but that increase hi overall load.

Also talk to him about what helps him to push through things that are hard, and what acts as a road block. Is he sleeping enough? Is he enjoying enriching entertainment at reasonable intervals? What are all the trade offs in his head being used in these at-the-moment calculations?

Do consider that processing speed issues, which often exist in kids like ours, make staying organized very difficult. My son never felt he had the TIME after class to put away papers, until we finally devised the perfect FAST system. He moves on a slow motion button; every little thing takes him longer, so transitions will always feel more rushed to him than they do to most people. This is something I can totally relate to: I don't know how it happens, but I am always the slowest to take the cash out of my wallet and hand it over. Or to pick up my purse and leave my seat. I swear I start the same time as other people, stay on task, and then notice everyone else is waiting. That slow motion button is frustrating.

I thank my lucky stars and my parents that my parents erred on the side of pushing when I was little.

I had some awful ef problems too when I was 12, but I was much bester at 13, then good by 14.

InThisTogether, I have some questions because I am not following your train of thought.

a. What does it mean to "take responsibility for his own learning?"
b. If he is supposed to "take responsibility for his own learning" then why do schools exist and teachers exist?
c. Aren't schools responsible for instructing and teaching him?
d. If he is responsible for his own learning then how does he take this responsibility? Does he go to the library and teach everything to himself?





I agree with you here. He does need to do these things. Things that rot and spoil attract things like flies, rats and maggots. He can get a disease like Bubonic plague or something. Any trash he does have, he needs to take out on a consistent basis. It will attract kats and ants as well.





He definitely does need to find a system. He needs to find something that works for him. I can tell you it is much harder as an adult. I still struggle with major executive functioning issues. I can tell you it is tough especially when one has all of these ideas in his head that he keeps mulling over. He is going to have to sit down, drink a couple of beers and work with you to try to figure this out. I'm just joking about the beers. Seriously he does need to sit down and hammer this out now. Now is better than later.



When you mean scaffolding do you mean this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instructional_scaffolding



I have an idea. Try adding in one folder to the system and see what happens. How does one determine if one is doing good to the child or doing evil to the child? What is the proper way to teach a child and to raise a child? I think we need Socrates on this one.



It seems like there are so many grey areas. How does one deal with this?

I don't mean it as literally as you are taking it. I mean that he should not rely on me or his teachers to stand over him and direct his every move. It should be enough, for example, that the teacher asks the class for the previous day's homework and he should hand it in with the rest of his class. He/she shouldn't have to make a separate trip and help him open his folder to get it. On the home end, it should be enough that I have left him visual reminders and an explicit schedule for him to follow to get his homework done when he gets home. When I come home and ask if it is finished or if he needed help on anything, he should just tell me. I should not have to go through each of his assignments to verify that he did, indeed, do them after he told me he did. And he should not tell me that he had no problems with his homework, then burst into tears the next day and blame me because he was unprepared for class because he didn't understand the homework. He needs to take responsibility. He cannot just expect everyone else to do everything for him. Build him systems? Yes. We need to do that because he can't on his own. But do everything for him like he is in kindergarten? No.



Yes. With particular emphasis on not removing full support too early. Because as long as we keep doing things for him, I think we are only further handicapping him.






Apparently, one comes to the internet and asks strangers for feedback LOL! Hey, it works for me if for no other reason than it helps me think more deeply on the subject (although most people who know me say that thinking too deeply is a flaw of mine).

As an update, I laid down the law with him. I told him I felt responsible for setting him up for some very bad habits and that if I didn't make him correct it, I would not be doing a very good job as his mother. I reiterated that I know this stuff is hard, because it is hard for me too, but that we cannot let our struggles hold us back from things we can accomplish. He is of above average intelligence. There is no reason why he shouldn't be able to go to college and get the kind of job he wants (he wants to be an animal behaviorist, or a wildlife biologist, something along those lines). The only thing holding him back is that he isn't even really trying. He is taking the easy way out and not even trying (he admits to this). He started to tear up and tell me he was sorry and I told him I already know he is sorry, but sorry is not fixing the problem. I need him to stop acting like a little boy and start taking responsibility for himself. Homework undone, backpack a mess = loss of all screen privileges. The exception is if he calls me and tells me he is stuck. Then I will help him when I get home.

So far, so good. He actually says it makes him feel really good in school when there aren't papers falling out of his book bag all over the place and when he knows where things are. So far, I have only had to help him with one assignment, and it was interpreting a book chapter according to "study guide" questions. I would expect him to have difficulty with this because it required him to draw inferences about character motivations and thoughts, which is really tough for him. A few other times, he has had to expand some of his work, but he has not argued at all.

<sigh> of course this success with drawing the hard line has made me question whether there are other areas that maybe he would be doing better if I did not accommodate as much.

How did you feel about it at the time? Did you think they were pushing you too hard? Did you only realize it was right for you in hindsight?

I have met so many adults on the spectrum who had really unfair expectations placed on them when they were kids and from the very beginning, I vowed to never do that. I have a friend with Tourette's who was not diagnosed until she was an adult. Her whole childhood she believed everyone who told her that if she only tried hard enough, she would be able to "control" herself. So she eventually came to see herself as inferior to others. She is not. She is actually quite brilliant. But she shared her story with me as soon as my daughter was diagnosed, I believe in an attempt to help me understand that it was good to know, because now I could prevent myself from making the same mistake her parents made because I was armed with knowledge.

I really do struggle with a continual battle with myself. At one point, I am convinced I pushed too hard and I feel riddled with guilt. Then I become convinced that I am overcompensating and not helping them to achieve the degree of success they are capable of because I am not pushing hard enough. So I become riddled with guilt. It is a vicious cycle and one of the big challenges--for me--of raising high functioning kids. They look "normal enough" for the most part (my daughter more than my son), so you start to expect "normal enough" behavior. Then something happens and reality whacks you in the face and reminds you that looking "normal enough" is not the same as "wired like everyone else."

I could ramble on forever. I just want to do what is right by my kids and sometimes it is hard to know what that is.

High standards are good, so long as he believes it worth striving for, believes in himself. I think that where he is now is where he is now, doesn't necessarily mean he could have done more sooner.

I would watch and see how he does with the new demands you have placed, if you see him meeting them, let him experience pride and ownership. Perhaps I accommodate too much, but I know what it is like to be pushed too hard, feels bad, does not work. In a way I suppose I think pushing too hard is a variant of over controlling and gets the same negative outcome as not pushing and doing too much for a child. Being proud of his effort is key, and his seeing you proud of him is going to be a special experience. I'd let him enjoy rather then looking to change more all at once.

Now that you explained it to where I understand it, you make sense and I agree with you with one suggestion. Create something in which he can record for each class what he has trouble with and what he doesn't. Maybe you could do it in word with word tables. Everyday, he can review that with you. What do you think?





My opinion is to remove some of these things slowly. IMHO, I have problems and issues with how education is done with kids with disabilities. If at all possible they shouldn't be exempting a child from things but give the child the tools and the ability to do these things. For instance, instead of extra time on tests why not teach the kids the skills and give them techniques to take the tests in the allotted time. What do you think?




lol, It works for me to . I don't think you think to deeply. I think you're thought process is fine and you make yourself clear to me and for the most part I understand you. To me, you're comprehensible and fun to have conversations with. To me, most people IRL are to vague and talk about nothing.



Good! Good! Good! You're doing an excellent job. One skill I do think he needs to learn is critical thinking. I think he needs to learn to dissect arguments and analyze to determine how valid and sound or strong and cogent they are. What are screen privileges?



Again, it seems like you're doing an excellent job. Honestly, Autistic kids need structure even more than NT kids.



This is where you will have to think it through and discuss it with others on here.

I can completely relate to this. I was EXACTLY like this as a kid. PApers just crammed everywhere. In my desk, in my back pack. EVERYWHERE. Didn't matter if I had a single folder and it was as simple as taking ALL papers and putting them in one folder EVERY day. I might be able to do it for one or two days... but after that? No it's still confusing. My brain wants to categorize them. Once it starts to do that, basically each paper gets classified a different way and gets it's own category which makes organizing next to impossible. They weren't categorized as "papers". There was and is no "All papers" category for me.

Heres an example: Lets say I got a scholastic order form, a weekly newsletter, a homework for multiplicaiton, a homework for reading, and a homework for fractions. I'm hard pressed to decide which to put in the folder where even now as an adult. As an adult, I get what YOU mean by all papers and I'll just do it whether I really get it, agree with it, or even think it's all that important. IF I remember or think it's even remotely close to a priority. But when I was a kid? No.... Well I might stick one paper in my pocket, maybe the news letter so I remember to give it to mom. Then I put the scholastic order in my back pack because that's super exciting and I wasn like 10 books. The homework... well... it's all different. Multiplication, fractions, and reading... arg arg arg so frustrating. I can put one in the folder and what to do with the other two? WHERE DO THEY GO OMG IM SO FRUSTRATED NOW CRAM CRAM CRAM CRAM CRAM.

Yeah.

As an adult I can do what needs done when I have to. But just thinking about these things (the adult equivalent is paying bills, making appointments, making phonecalls, etc.. etc..) cause a TON of stress. It's so complicated. Which do I do first? In what order? How do I do this one? This one is different from that one.

As a result things get messy. certain things stress me out so bad, I can't do them. I hired a house cleaner to come vaccuum (The noise) and put the kids toys in bins (I have a compulsion to match up all the parts and pieces rather than just putting them away and getting it done).

I"m not sure what you can do other than ask the teacher to arbitrarily staple it all together like a packet and give it to him. I would honestly if he is missing homeworks over this.

I think there are so many things going on here at once that it's difficult to separate them.

For organisation - I was often like him as a child. I could not organise. Still can't unless I am completely relaxed and do not have any time limit. The mere act of organising, because of what CWA explained above - makes me stressed out as I go. Until I give up on it. Sometimes I would get somewhere. Sometimes I wouldn't. I am better at it now because I know it was a huge issue for me. Couple it with the end of a class where my brain is mush from being surrounded by people, me panicking because I have to pack up and get to the next class - I find it very believable that he would forget, especially at 12. I was still forgetting at 15.

Having said that. You said you believe you are being too supportive with him. I think you are. I was not supported much, if at all as a kid, and it forced me to develop coping mechanisms. I think you need to start slowly introducing his responsibility and let consequences play out as they will without interference from you. If you don't do it now, it will be too late soon. Ideally you would do this from the time he is small, and switching now will be hard, but it's going to be very necessary for high school, and especially for college.

The last thing I would say, which I actually believe is the most important part of this is: you said he wasn't taking responsibility for school and for his learning. This is really the biggest issue. I think it is making the other issues you mentioned, markedly worse, because he simply has no motivation to do it (which is different from lazy) and therefore is putting it in "too hard" basket too early or too easily simply to escape from the pressure. Unless you find a way to get him actively very interested in learning, and in school - the likelihood is that this will continue for most of high school and will probably markedly effect whether or not he gets into college or not. I do not know what your son is motivated by though.
In my case, I was incredibly bored at school, and my guardians had to agree to buying books on more serious topics that fascinated me which school did not cover or did not cover in depth (far above my grade levels) and one of them helped tutor me and do extra circular learning - this was in exchange for me staying in school, going to class, completing homework and assignments, etc. - one of the reasons it made it easier because usually we already had covered the material I was learning in class, so while I was more bored, it was also easy and therefore I never had a problem completing the schoolwork, and it also meant I could focus more on what I wanted to after school, or even at school once I had finished the set tasks.

I didn't have problems with it at the time.

To me, the more challenging something is, the more interested I am in mastering it.

If I had been more protected and less pushed, then I would not be as high-functioning as I am today and be able to do what I can do today.

I'd have to second this. When I was 12, I started the year out with a brand-new trapper keeper and a plan to use it. And every time I opened the damn thing to put my papers in at the end of class, the teacher would be screaming, "EVERYONE ELSE IS ALREADY GONE!! ANDELE, GIRL!! MOVE!!" I had to think about what I was doing, and it took time. In my locker was a nightmare mess-- I had to rush through getting things in and out, think about not letting my shoulders or feet or anything else end up in someone else's space, remember to keep one shoulder braced against the door or I'd be getting my fingers slammed in the door again.

I had to go in after school every few weeks and clean it all out or it would overtake me. It was the only time I could do it. Extra time to put my papers away at the end of class and extra time to do my locker thing-- say, 5 minutes in the morning, after lunch, and before dismissal when there weren't other kids there screaming and slamming and stomping and simultaneously throwing a fit if I so much as glanced at them-- would have been nice.

Just surviving the day is a stressful experience-- just about a stress overload-- for a middle-school Aspie. I had no comorbids (other than depression). This was the time of life when I stopped wanting people to come over, stopped enjoying spending time with the friends I did have, pretty much stopped liking everything but walking in the woods, playing in the creek, and writing stories and reading books. School was a battlefield (literally-- I think 6th grade was the year I adopted armed military combat as my metaphor for going to school every day) and I had everything I could do just to get through it without doing something-- like putting papers in a folder too slowly-- that was guaranteed to attract the wrong kind of attention.

One other thought-- By high school, I realized that going in after school hours wasn't going to be a realistic possibility any more. I learned to carry everything, all the time. All books, all papers-- It all went into a backpack, and I organized it at home if I had the chance. I carried a 45-pound backpack everywhere I went for 4 years. I was a complete and total nervous wreck and they laughed at me (even teachers, actually especially teachers) but I always had what I needed and I had really killer shoulder muscles. Those were the days when I weighed 110 pounds soaking wet, but I could sling an 80-pound feed sack over my shoulder and go trucking off with it.

Sometimes I think things were better then. There were no IEPs, there was no understanding or tolerance, special-needs kids were the profoundly disabled kids that were kept in a separate classroom. Someone like me knew she would have to either find a way to cope or become a failure, and there were no bones about it.

I think human decency was more common then. They knew I was "one of those stupid smart people." Some teachers gave me the time to file my papers-- in those classes, I always had my homework. Then there was our resident Spanish speaker (andele-- hurry). I never had my papers for her class (and I think she must have been AS too, because the papers I did turn in often didn't come back). I hated her-- I was really happy, later, when she died of cancer of the tongue. I wonder when "patience" and "tolerance" and "compassion" stopped being basic traits of a desirable human being and started becoming special needs, accomodations that you need an IEP to get.

Sometimes I think things were better then...

...but then again, by the time I was 12, I lived in a constant state of terror and anxiety. I was always watching myself for mistakes and the outside world for threats. I had already learned that I was different and different was less, and I was already on the road to giving up on myself and being a victim. I was already becoming the 18-year-old that would smoke and drink and steal drugs and alcohol and ride with a drunk driver without a seat belt (in the backseat of my own car, with music blaring and people making fun of me because I couldn't follow the conversation).

I'm probably lucky that ending up broken was all that happened to me. So-- I turned out pretty high-functioning by growing up in a world where Asperger's and accomodations just didn't exist, but I paid a hell of a price for that, too, in terms of self-hate and lack of self-advocacy and just general giving up and turning away.

School time: Homework - horrible and a mess. Attention during school lections - horrible. Physical presence - acceptable at the limit. (Needed to learn for tests.) Executive ability to manage schhol tasks - not existing. Tests results: Good - Very Good. ^^

Reason why, in opposition to all the "But when you work, you must do this and that as well and cant simply do the way you like."

Because many employers care for results and as long as you bring good results, dont care that you bring that results your way, anyway if its Kindergarten style. Kindergarten style works for me.