Article. Parent angry and acting as victim

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You're dealing with a bunch of dolts buyerbeware.

The irony is impeccable in the posts.

It seems like those on that post who are bashing Sarah are the pots calling the kettle black.

How so and who is Sarah?

These are reasonable questions. I will attempt to do my best to answer them.

Sarah is the Aspie who wrote the counter-response to the first article. http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009 ... oking-out/

I am not just talking about the author of this posting but some of the user comments as well. One of the themes that this post and the user comments have is this.

In their mind and perception, they perceive this child and those like us as lacking empathy or in other words being able to put ourselves in the other person's shoes.

The other theme is that those like you, I and others like us are self-centered and selfish.

This is just my point of view and perception but it seems to me that they are projecting some of their own traits onto those like us. They seem to lack the ability to put themselves in our shoes and are more concerned about themselves and other people's perceptions more so than this child and those like us. The tone from the post and the user comments that comes across to me is "me, me, me, me, me." Yet, this is what some of the user comments complain about those like us. Whenever those like us complain and whine we're called complainers and whiners and yet whenever these people complain they get a free pass.

Here is an exhibit from the post done by the mother.



Let's look at some of the responses given to Sarah on this post.
http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009 ... oking-out/

One of the themes of the posts is we're not allowed to criticize the mother yet they're allowed to criticize the child and others like us.







They are criticizing Sarah because Sarah gave her point of view from the inside-out. They seem to do a lot of denying as well. They seem to uphold this child, you, me and others to standards they do not seem to follow themselves. Why is this? Why do they do this? Why do they have such inconsistent standards and beliefs? Why are they allowed to question and pick a part those like us but we can't do the same back? My perception of these posts lead me to believe they're inconsistent and project the faults onto us they seem to have themselves. They demand empathy from those like us but won't give it to us themselves.

Do you have a different interpretation than I? What are your perceptions and what do you derive and what is your reasoning? If my reasoning is faulty can you show me why it is?

I couldn't find her comment. It must have been deleted.

It always looks like to me people on the spectrum turn it into a competition to who has it worse. The autistic person or the parent and I think there is no competition, it's hard for both of them. The mother isn't bad when they talk about the affects it does on them and how it changed their lives and affects others etc and we are not bad if we talk about how it affects us. People on the spectrum make parents of autistic kids out to be monsters when they struggle and I have been treated like a monster for my own struggles and that I was in the wrong for how I feel and how dare I have anxiety and be depressed so I think mothers and fathers have every right to feel that way too as a parent of a autistic child.

Is it really an aspie thing to not even give a flying f**k about how hard a parent has it with an autistic child? I think that is proving their point how we lack empathy and don't see other peoples point of view. But yet they do the same for us but what are they supposed to do about their own struggles? How can we teach them to be robots and be god so they won't struggle and have a hard life? I swear people are not allowed to be stressed out and depressed and overwhelmed when they have a special needs child because it's not the kid's fault they are that way.

I wonder if thee are any other aspies out there who actually do understand the parents point of view and not treat them like monsters? That is what makes me so different than the rest of you. I was different than other NTs but I am still different than other aspies.


These sort of things cheese me off probably because I have had a similar experience growing up and it wasn't with autism, it was with having a puppy and younger kids upsetting me and I was made the bad guy for it and to this day it still upsets me so it makes me understand the parents better with their struggles of an autistic child. All I know is treating them like monsters for their struggles isn't even helping and just makes it worse, it sure didn't help me and all it did was it made me think of kids as monsters and made me think when I become a parent I will not let my own kid be a monster and behave that way and make him own up to his actions than letting him get away with it and I will not treat the older child like a monster and f**k if anyone wants to think it makes me a bad parent. I think it's being a bad parent when you let your kids be brats and do nothing about it and let them upset older kids than stopping them. Jesus I am lucky I didn't grow up to hate children because I always knew it was the grown ups fault.

I think what would have helped me in my childhood was understanding me and my feelings and helping me and being on my side and giving me support than shooting me down and getting all mad at me and yelling at me and giving me a consequence. That is what I want to do to parents of autistic kids.

I also could have used better support when I was 16 but it was a tough life for all of us. All it did was it made me have violent thoughts and fantasies and be suicidal and have depression.

I don't even understand how you derived this from my logical objections. To try to illustrate further where I am coming from I ask that you read about Kantian Ethics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant especially the first formulation. Based upon the first formulation any maxim or belief has to be applied in a universal way. If it is true that we're expected to put ourselves in other people's shoes then we should be able to expect the same thing. If it is true that others are expected to put themselves in other's shoes including us then these others and we should do the same. I do not see this happening.

Another thing is this. Don't just look Autism issues look at American society as a whole. We're told to be true to ourselves and be ourselves. Why give such inconsistent standards? In America, people in general are expected to conform and capitulate to certain social standards without question or discussion. Autism issues is just a subset and interrelates with society as a whole.

For example, why is it always unacceptable to blame external circumstances for one's misfortune no matter what the conditions are? Why does the USA have this extreme internal locus of control? Why isn't any external locus of control ever accepted in America's framework? There is this whole idea of selfishness vs. selflessness and that selfishness is always negative and selfless as always positive. This is what is always touted. As an example that puts this belief into question is how can one be selfless to others if one can't take care of himself and there are many interpretations to what selfishness and selflessness are?

It just seems like all of this is just a big stalemate meaning neither side can or will see the perspective of the other.

On the other hand, I will ask this. Are we really like Typhoid Mary? If we inadvertently cause pain and suffering for others then it brings up a further question. If a cure was found would it be immoral not to take it since the nature of our condition causes suffering for those around us? I have mixed feelings.

No this is about autistic people who act like parents are monsters when they write about their experience raising an autistic child. It's not sugarcoated and it's said the way it is and how it really is. ASD people are not immune to being hurt by the truth. The truth hurts.



So does that mean parents are not allowed to rant or talk about what it's like raising a child on the spectrum and how hard it is? Was I wrong to get frustrated when a three year old girl kept ripping apart my train tracks I built and wouldn't stop when I told her to. Was I wrong to have anxiety when a small child would overwhelm me and ruin my stuff? Was it wrong of me to scream with frustration because I couldn't defend myself and if I did, I would have been the one in trouble because I was the biggest and I couldn't resort to violence to get them to stop? Was I wrong to get overwhelmed when my dad brought home a puppy and it wasn't a good time and he kept peeing all over the place? Was I wrong to have tremendous anxiety over a dog? Was I wrong to be forced into a situation I didn't ask for? That is what I see ASD people doing to parents of autistic kids. No sympathy and no understanding. That is what parents need. Not to be shot down or criticized. Yes we can understand how hard we make it for them and how they put up with it and worked hard with us. I can imagine how hard I must have made it for my mother and I can tell by stories she tells and I don't feel guilty. Then of course she claims I was abused because she didn't take my side. Just like a person shouldn't feel guilty they kept their mom at up night when they were a baby with their crying because they were colic so their mom was sleep deprived. But yet if the mother told that experience in the future, no one would dare to shoot that mother down. Instead they would relate to how "yeah having baby is tough and so is being a parent, we have been there, it's hard, I am glad those days are over" and they still know their kid was crying because they needed something like they were scared or sick, not feeling well, hungry, and simply because they were colic so they weren't feeling well. It doesn't mean they didn't understand their child's perspective when they were a baby. I don't even see people jump on the parents over them talking about how hard being a parent is to normal kids but it seems so wrong to do that about disabled kids? After all they were kids once too and they understand how hard it was for their parents and some don't even realize it until they have their own children. But they don't feel guilty for how hard their parents had it and how they made it hard for them. They shouldn't and neither should people with disabilities.

Man is it even wrong to even talk about how something makes you feel and how it affects you? Man why can't we all be robots and not have feelings anymore? Then the whole world would be a better place. No more selfishness or self centeredness and no more rants or experience stories.



You can disagree with the be true to ourselves and be ourselves because we both know it's BS. if everyone was their "true selves", then the world would be in chaos. Look at Ted Bundy and other sickos or look at people who are jerks or like to break rules or people who are violent. I have always believed we can be whatever we want to be meaning we can choose to not be a jerk or choose to not be a killer, choose to not do crime and that will be ourselves when we don't do them because we make that choice to not be that person so we no longer make it ourselves because we are not that person anymore. It's like picking out a role. Mmmm who shall I be, shall I be a nice person, shall I be a rude person, shall I have poor manners, who do I want to be. I think I will be a nice person and not a mean one so I will work on it and then it will be me. I am being myself now, nice.

I never thought people didn't choose to be who they are like do people not choose to be jerks, do people not choose to be as*holes, do people not choose to kill, do people not choose to do crimes, do people not choose to be violent? But people saying they are being who they are and have no intention of changing anything nor working on anything to be a better person tells me if people really don't pick a role about what kind of person they want to be. I always thought people chose to be jerks or want attention or be a bully, be rude, etc because they like being that person. If they didn't like it, they would stop being that and be someone else. Being yourself is just an illusion. I sometimes find it's an excuse for bad behavior as if it's really who they are and they can't change it and be someone else and have it be who they are. That is what I did to myself as a kid. I didn't like myself so I decided to change myself and be someone else and I have never felt happier. It's like I selected a person and a personality and adopt other peoples behavior I liked and copied them. Now I wish I can select my feelings and my emotions, then it would make it a lot easier for me to change personality. It's like picking out what to wear. Who do I want to be today. Yeah that drove my school crazy in 7th grade because I was selecting personalities, teachers couldn't keep track so I was finally suspended for something I did.

Okay I don't even know who I am anymore and I refuse to call anything fake I do.



I can't answer that. You would have to provide an example. I have always seen people talk about what stuff happened that was unfortunate and how it affected them such as job loss or someone getting hurt or sick or ending up with a disabled child so therefore they don't have the same life as they had before rather it's work or their home or having to give up on things because of something happening. But yet if the kid is special needs and the parent dares to talk about how it changed their lives and affects them, it's seen as wrong but yet talk about how they lost their job and how it affects them, or talk about how their partner died and how it affected them, no one shoots them down for it. I see sympathy and understanding. But yet there will still be self righteous people out there who won't give a darn how unfortunate they are because they think they should be doing other things or think their experience is the same as theirs and think they have the same coping mechanisms and look down on them for being on assistance. Is this what you meant by blame external circumstances for one's misfortune no matter what the conditions are?




I agree.

Both sides are at war with each other. Both want to be understood and we both think each side is wrong. I happen to be on the opposite of ASD. Maybe because of my own screwed experience so it made me understand better and it brings my old feelings back when I see anti comments about the parents when they tell their experience and how it affects them. It's not just us who are affected by our condition, it also affects our families too. So I have very strong feelings about all this and sometimes I avoid topics that trigger them when it gets too much for me to handle I feel like having a meltdown and I start saying things.

Oops, I realized I lied, I just remembered there have been ASD parents who understood the parents perspective of raising ASD kids because they have also been there themselves so they have sympathy for the parent and don't shoot them down for it and they understand. They understand the struggles, the lack of understanding, the judgments they have to face, the looks.


Also I also remembered I have seen very few people be critical online about parents blogging about their children or posting about them because their concern is their kid might grow up and see that post by them and feel bad. Well my mother has told me the time I had bit her, the time when she and dad had to cancel going down to Mexico because my grandma was having problems and my grandpa did't feel comfortable bringing her out here to watch us while they went away on a trip, the time she told me how she and dad tried going to some horse race here when I was a baby and they couldn't get in because of me, the time she told me when I was four, I went outside with my baby brother while she was putting our infant brother to sleep and dad was supposed to be watching us and I left my brother somewhere and my mother got yelled at by a neighbor for it. I did not feel guilty and still don't. I have said "sorry" in the past when she told me those stories but she would tell me "Don't be, it wasn't your fault." I wasn't hurt or upset when I heard those stories so what makes those people think their children will feel guilty when they read stuff about them online how they affected their parents lives and how they had to cancel out or not do certain things because of them. To me its all the truth and normal stuff about being a parent just like when parents talk about raising an ASD child, it's the truth and the norm of raising one. Even parents rant about their NT kids too. I have seen it online and they don't get shot down for it. Only time I ever saw someone get shot down for it is when someone posted "My little s**t wet his bed again" and parents reacted to the word while others stood up for the parent and tried to say it's normal to call your kids names behind their backs. I bet if the father was just ranting about it and he didn't call his kid a little s**t, he wouldn't have gotten hostile responses and a bunch of assumptions that he abuses his child and call social services. Even I was appalled he would call his kid that and how other parents could find it acceptable. And his kid was like ADHD if I remember correctly.

Last edited by League_Girl on 23 Oct 2013, 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I will respond to more of this later as I have to get going. I will say this before I go

a. I am not a parent nor have ever been a parent so I will admit I lack data and am ignorance on this.

b. I am not taking a side per se (even though it may seem like I am) but I am just showing that certain beliefs and actions by others are inconsistent. I've seen other aspies be inconsistent in their standards as well and it makes just as much sense to me when NTs do it and the amount of sense it makes to me is none.

c. I will admit that it is possible I may be laboring under faulty premises and assumptions that lead to a faulty conclusion which is that this is inconsistent but the problem is I do not perceive what those faulty premises are.

I guess I've got to wonder now how my kids will feel about me having told stories about their behaviors when they were little. I really can't recall but one story that my mom ever told about me being particularly difficult. Not that I wasn't a difficult child--I was. I was also the oldest at every gathering, because my parents were 15 and 18 when I was born. I was at least a couple of years older than all of their friends' kids. My sister had the uncanny ability from the time she was very small to manipulate any adult in the vicinity to get me punished any time she felt like it. I got a lot of, "You can't do that. I don't care if they hit you first, you are bigger." I don't know how my mom did it, but I never heard her complaining about me to other people. And she really did have justification. I did things like beat kids up on the playground in Head Start, get bad marks for behavior every single day from Kindergarten to 3rd grade. About three days into 1st grade I got bored and just walked out of class to the playground and they had to chase me down and drag me back. I insisted on wearing the same clothes every day to school forcing her to go explain to the school that I wasn't wearing dirty clothes. I chased other girls around the playground and threw worms on them. And this is just stuff I can remember. I suspect that she'd be able to tell much worse.

Maybe I am having an extreme Theory of Mind problem with understanding and empathizing. It's entirely possible that I am. I generally have to be close to someone in real life experiencing something to be able to start to understand it. My real life experience go something like this, "Well, even when my big kids were little and the middle child spent 9 months throwing daily tantrums that lasted for hours and looked more like some kind of seizure than anything a conscious human being should be doing, I didn't call him names and blame him for any bad feelings I was having, so why do people do that?" "My friend's child was kicked out of about 50 daycares and private babysitting situations before Kindergarten, he beat a child bloody and then made a credible threat to kill her when he was only four years old, and even though she has tons of stories, I've never heard her call him a monster or living with him a nightmare." "My other friends have a severely autistic child who spoke his first words after age 12 and still isn't potty trained, who broke a teacher's arm when he was 10. They have an Aspie and an adopted Down's/drug baby whose only communication is to screech and hit people and they are people I would expect to sound like this, but they seem to be genuinely happy." The only people I have known in real life that have expressed the kind of dismay and despair in that article and ones like them, were parents that I dealt with when I worked in child protection services after they had seriously injured their children and were explaining how the monstrous child justified their feelings and actions--I even saw all the lawyers and judge sympathize with the parents who pretty severely beat their defiant teenage daughter who then tried to commit suicide. Intellectually I know that people that feel that way are probably very rarely abusive, but my direct experience skews it toward sympathizing with the child. (Also, while I am not close enough to the family with the three special needs kids to know if they are putting on a good face for public, I am that close with my other friend.) I've sat in a lot of waiting rooms and seen people who looked extremely stressed and frustrated who still didn't describe their lives as a nightmare.

How is it that I have met so many parents of special needs kids, even a lot of them at a time of crisis in their lives, who would never call their child a monster and say that living with him is a nightmare, yet news agencies never run out of people who seem positively gleeful to say that on TV or for an article. Is it that parents only feel safe enough to do that in the semi-anonymity of the Internet or TV interviews? Are people just too afraid of sounding like bad parents to say what they really feel? Would those same people being interviewed and making Youtube videos of their children having naked meltdowns sound positive if I encountered them in person? (yes I have seen videos of people disputing the existence/validity of the Asperger's diagnosis that included shots of their preteen classically autistic children naked in the floor screaming and self-injuring during a meltdown--they too got a lot of sympathy and no censure at all for doing that to their child). I really am not understanding where they are coming from.

Most likely. People are more honest when they are behind the screen because they are "anonymous" and I am sure they express their true feelings to someone in real life they trust like to a therapist where it's a safe environment and parents tend to not rant in front of their kids about them. My mom will not admit I made her life hard or difficult but she has said "it was very hard" referring to an incident where I tried using my AS as an excuse and trying to have ODD and getting worse. But she has told me I abused her and she put up with it and still helped me and she did her best. She also will not say I embarrassed her and she says it's an unfair question to ask because all kids embarrass their parents and do things that upset them or make them mad.

If the therapist feels the parent is in danger of hurting their child, they are required to report it.

Oh I have seen parents call their kids monsters and they mean it in a joking way. Someone even posted it on Facebook about my child when I wrote something he did.

Another time there was a parent who posted about her son who was violent and she said in her title her son is a monster and ASD people reacted to it. She didn't mean it in a joking way.

I have seen parents call their kids brats behind their backs or stinkers but never "little s**t." Even a parent has called their kids those two names to their faces. My mom has called me a brat several times growing up and calling me a stinker and calling me mean and rude or naughty. Then to see other parents defending the father who called his boy a little s**t was appalling and they were trying to compare it to these other words and saying we were holier than thou and have we never not ranted or been frustrated as a parent. Some even suggested the father may have meant it in a joking way like how they call their own kids a brat.

If he was indeed a good father, I think going online and calling his son that word behind his back to a bunch of strangers wasn't a good idea. If he did it to his group of friends and to people who know him well, it may have been okay because they know him and they know he isn't an abuser nor a bad father and they know he does not call his kid those things to his face. But doing it in a group, big mistake where a bunch of people don't really know him, even me. He did open a huge can of worms for himself and someone even did a blog on him on their profile and the blogger got flack for it from people who were standing up for the dad. Someone else even wrote a blog on him in their self defense of him saying they know him in real life and what a great dad he is and all and then I thought all this.

You're not so much having a ToM problem, MiahClone (at least, not any more than EVERYONE has ToM problems), as doing something inherently highly ironic: Simultaneously being very much IN YOUR POINT OF VIEW (remembering your own experiences as a probable ASD kid and worrying about the experiences of your ASD kid) and working very hard to take someone else's point of view (that of your ASD kid) and to understand a point-of-view that is alien (that of a probable NT who resents having to deal with an ASD kid in this time, this place, and this cultural climate).

That probably made no sense at all.

And I'm so completely outclassed in this discussion that I should really go mind my own yard.

I have been thinking about it and this is my opinion. I am basing it off of Harry Browne's "How I found Freedom in an Unfree World.

http://stuffthatisgood.com/wp-content/u ... -World.pdf

If Mr. Browne is correct we may be laboring under assumptions that may be faulty. One of them being like he said that we should even consider society as a whole and the other being that there is a safe social code of behavior that will obtain approval from everyone. There are some people whom we will not obtain their approval no matter what we do. The one who made the post and the commenters will never give us their approval and we will never give them ours. They are individuals with their own thoughts, feelings, and experiences and so are we.

I think our best bet is to follow some of the principles in this book. We do need to be ourselves and we should only seek approval from those who matter. This means we need to be genuine with ourselves and others as well. 99% of the population may not approve of us but maybe 1% will. Those are the ones who matter. Sarah is not going to change her opponent's minds whatsoever. My opinion is live our lives and we will always have our detractors and let others live their own lives as well.

League_Girl, do you remember StarryGrl? I kind of see where she is coming from when she said that relationships should start off with compatibility. My pastor told a story about how he lived when he was just dating his then future wife. He did not hide the fact that he kept his house kind of cluttered and had some of his clothes on the chairs and stuff. He showed her who he was and how he lived. He was honest with her about a negative trait he had. He showed her a part of his true self and was genuine.

In a relationship, trust and honesty has to come before anything else.

You're right that we will all always do things that will bother other people. That is why places may discourage such behavior that bothers them such as placing kids on counter tops, leaving trash around, talking on your cell phones, profanity. Their place, their rules. Even people who are looking for a room mate may set rules and make requirements and may not allow certain behaviors that bother them and if you as a looker don't want to live that way, don't rent from them. Even places make rules about how to treat others and people may feel they can;t be their true selves because they aren't allowed to be a jerk let's say or belittle anyone or bully.

Same for relationships, sure everyone should be their true selves so the person can see if they like them or not and if they are compatible. You won't know until you live together or date. That is why both my relationships failed, one was lazy and a freeloader and wanted to be a bum and always made excuses and the other one was abusive and possible manipulative and controlling and I had to go through therapy to undo the damage he gave me for my self esteem. But at least I can give him credit he was his true self from the start and I got to know him better as we were living together and we were literally together for a month while my first one lasted three months. But my other ex acted all motivated like he wanted to work and was going and picking up applications and he was eager to get his license and drive his car again but that all changed so I felt played. It's a possibility he wanted to do these things and then changed his mind and he also played games with me and I am not sure if he was being a smart ass or obtuse or if he was deliberately twisting my words. He was the person who said he will not change when we met and what he was showing me so far who he is I liked but then he seemed to change and Mom told me that was the real him. She told me the sixth month rule, it takes three to six months to really know the person you are dating to see their true selves because by then they start being their true selves because whatever they had in their mind wore off. Then he wrote on myspace he thought I would accept who he is and I was shocked because really, if him being lazy, him not wanting to work, him wanting to be a jerk, not care about me is who he is, then I don't like it. Then he called them all faults which I thought was BS. Now I would run from anyone who says "I will not change, people must accept for who I am" because I will think they are not going to care about you nor respect you and if they are hurting you, too bad. They are not going to respect your house either so who cares if they might punch a hole in your wall or slap you. It's who they are. that line is just a knee jerk reaction for me so I would run for the hills and not take any chances because of my mistake I made last time. Both relationships I had were damaging for me and horrible and not just any relationship where things didn't work out and we weren't compatible, they were both horrible and they both would have destroyed me if I stayed in any of them. I was lucky to get out of both of them. The longer you stay, the harder it is to leave them and it can take someone years to finally leave their abusive marriage. I did not know I was in a abusive relationship until two years after I left my second relationship and I wouldn't even admit it because he had problems so I thought none of it count for abuse and there were things I did too in that relationship and the fact I would accidentally hurt his feelings with things I say because he was very sensitive. But both people can abuse each other in a relationship, both can be dysfunctional and it's possible he and his ex girlfriend both abused each other and then finally she left him. I never heard her side so I would never know what it was like when she was with him before me. I only heard his side and it sounded terrible what she did to him and how she would abuse him and lie about it in court calling it self defense.

When people first meet someone, they tend to get some extra energy and it gives them a boost to be different and then after a while it wares off and they go back to their old selves again. That is what an aspie told me who took psychology. So it made me wonder do people do this intentionally or not? Are they even aware they are doing this? My ex boyfriend #2 claimed I changed but I never did. I always showed my true self and it wasn't my fault he didn't see what movies I had and stuff and what books I had because he didn't snoop in my home when he visited. He saw my interests when I moved in with him because I brought my DVDs and video games and books but I started to wonder if it was possible I acted a little different when we met and I didn't realize it due to that energy thing in my head. Or he just got to know me better like I got to know him better.