toilet training: what worked for your little one?

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Ellemenope,

I know you are frustrated with the whole toilet training thing. I have been there, too. We messed up our son's training b/c after we had just started it, we had to make regular out-of-town trips which messed up our whole routine. It turns out, in our case, he was spooked by toilets outside the home. In a way, we were better off, because otherwise that would have been a nasty little surprise when he went to pre-k. We got it back on track about half way through pre-k, and I wish I could give you advice that was relevant to your situation, We did pre-k /special needs b/c they allowed pull ups and it was 1/2 day. We got it done about half-way through and maybe being around other kids 1/2 a day helped, too.

Once we could go back to not making weekend trips, we basically had to start all over, and then also acclimate him to going elsewhere. It took time, and I really don't know for sure that anything helped a lot at that point b/c we messed it up before. I mentioned the cloth pull-ups only b/c that seemed to push him over the edge when he was close. I think he just needed to become comfortable, again, with trying.

He had his book that he liked from before, which no longer helped too much, the videos and social stories didn't help, the reinforcers did not help. I think b/c he was older our main problem was that he did not want to miss out on any fun while he was gone. We let him have a book in there, but it was not as fun to him as the non-portable things.

I do not know if any of this applies to your situation or not. I finally convinced him that it took longer to clean him, and get him clean underpants and such than if he just took a little break and peed when he had to go. (#2 took longer to train, but that is another story) I made him stay in the bathroom, while I cleaned everything, and kept telling him that if he went when he needed to and "interrupted his fun" he would get more time for fun in the end. I am still not sure if that worked or he was just ready again.

I didn't mention that before, either b/c I think it may not be your child's reason, but you never know.

I know you do not want to try more videos b/c they have not worked, but if it is free and online and all, it would not hurt to give Adamentium's suggestions a try. You never know what will work, and hey, he may potty just to not have to see anymore videos about it, if it doesn't.

Last edited by ASDMommyASDKid on 14 Jan 2014, 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Another thought:

If food treats are what work, maybe try a new treat that is very similar in taste/texture to what he likes now, and try making that the new reinforcer so that you don't have to create artificial scarcity in the regular treats. I don't know how your child handles new foods, but mine would have been OK, with new sweet treats that were close to the old, and the novelty of it being special potty rewards might make him covet them.

I know he could very well decide it is not worth it b/c he already gets other treats but I think it is safer than restricting the old ones IMO.

I knew nothing about ASD at the time, but I had the idea that they would come to it in their own time and we shouldn't push it at all.

We showed them this video as part of a series and they were fascinated by it, we had potties for them and had told them what they were for and what was going to happen, " when you're ready" they asked to use the potty after seeing the Bear video. At no time did we use threats or rewards, other than lots of encouragement and approval.

But it was self directed, so there was zero opposition.

I think the normal state of affairs for most families, including families of kids with ASDs is that there are certain fun/preferred items/foods that are freely available and there are other highly preferred items that are only available in special occasions. When I suggested scarcity, I wasn't arguing for an extreme situation where a child has nothing they like, but rather a balanced situation, where some things are harder to get than others, and the child understands that sometimes they have to do things they don't want to do to get what they want.

There are situations and families where that balance does not exist, either because the child has such a restricted range of interests that they really only like 3-4 things, or because they are being given completely free access to whatever they want.

You are right to point out that in such a situation, restricting or limiting access to reinforcers will upset a child at first. This is the same way that any change in the environment and rules will upset a child; it takes some time to adjust. Children don't like to be told no, and they don't like to have demands placed on them. Children that aren't used to either of those things will probably throw tantrums the first few times. Once the child understands that they still have access to those reinforcers, they just have to do certain things first, things start to change. The new rules remain consistent and the children adapt. They learn the new ways that they can get what they want (ideally they wind up getting them in similar amounts as before, they just have to work for them a bit more).

I also want to address the idea that this may be cruel. In most situations where such steps are necessary, it is because the child does nothing that is asked of him/her or is not learning a skill that is crucial for their functioning (like communication). In such cases, we are choosing between a child who is completely dependent on others to provide for their needs, and one who can become more independent. In many cases there is also physical aggression involved - since children who can't accept "no" without a tantrum often turn into teens who won't accept "no" without a fight. In the short term, expecting that a child say "chip" before being given a chip may seem cruel, because you are denying that child what s/he wants. However, in the long term, this is the best way to make sure that when that child grows up, s/he will be at least somewhat independent, which is crucial to their long term well-being.

Reinforcement is the key to learning, and harnessing its power sometimes requires limit setting. Setting limits and making rewards contingent on meeting expectations is how we prepare children to live in the world - where they are expected to work for their food. Teaching children this lesson is the behavioral equivalent of eating broccoli. While it may upset a child to be expected to eat broccoli instead of ice-cream, it is a necessary discomfort if we want to foster health and well-being in the long-term.

edit: one more thing - I'm not at all opposed to trying to find new reinforcers. It certainly is easier on a child than restricting existing reinforcers. I generally recommend both approaches, depending on the situation. I've also seen extreme versions in the other direction - where parents remove favorite toys entirely as punishment for some misbehavior. The end result is it looks like the child is in prison. I am certainly not advocating that. In those situations, I encourage parents to give toys back, and start looking for behaviors (even small things-like waking up with a smile) that they can reinforce by giving access to preferred items.

EmileMulder,

I respectfully disagree with this approach. Is this what ABA is? If so, I can see why many of the older children on this board who have gone through it have issues with it. (I have seen on other posts that other people say it has expanded to include other things, -but what you are describing-- I do not like.)

Many of us with kids on the spectrum do not have kids that are mild enough for this approach to be anything but very punitive. My son is HFA and exceedingly smart, genius level in certain respects, but had/has a lot of issues when it comes to more functional skills, and yes, compliance. Until fairly recently a very restricted number of things worked as reinforcers. We have things now that work as occasional treats, but we did not always. Many of the things that worked that way, were overwhelmingly necessary and positive things like reading time that we did not want to restrict for what I think are obvious reasons. I would add reading time but never restrict it.

I typed a very long response before realizing it constituted a hijack, but I do want to say that not every AU child can be treated like a mouse in a maze that will respond as predicted. Some have extraordinary persistence and it is not a matter of getting them used to a new paradigm. Very smart kids can have some real issues with complying for the sake of compliance and with (perceived) fairness.

Any parent wants their kid to be functional but the lab rat routine can backfire on some kids.

I thought he was talking about all kids. He is right about the word no and how kids don't like limits and rules, every time a parent can't tell their kids no, I always think of spoiled brats who throw tantrums because they can't take no for an answer and the parents always give in. I also think of those kids in my neighborhood too who had parents that didn't supervise them and couldn't tell them no because they didn't want to be the bad guys so they were a friend instead of a parent. Those kids were bullies and jerks because they were unsupervised and their parents couldn't even be bothered so do their job.

My mom used to take away my Barbie dolls whenever I did something wrong and that worked like a charm for me and it scared my brothers when they saw all my dolls on top of the fridge so they knew if they disobeyed Mom, their toys would go up there too. It did get me to mind or else I lose all my dolls eventually and can't play with them anymore until I earn them back. Then after three years of that method, it stopped working because I learned to find something else to do if that happens so my mom stopped using that method. My mom used to say my dolls get a time out if I am naughty so it was like they were being punished for something I would do.


It does feel like I am controlling my own NT child as well when I try and make him do things and taking away things and restricting what he can do until he does it but I have to remember I am being a parent and I don't want him to grow up and be like those kids or have him be in control of me. I remember the days when my mom wouldn't let me do anything unless I took my stack of clothes upstairs to my room. My husband told me he had that done to him too growing up, not allowed to do anything unless he does what his mom wants. My son does it eventually even if it takes him three hours to give in and I know I have to be strong by not giving in myself because I am the parent and I can see why people say parenting is lot of work and a overwhelming and how hard it is to get a child to do a simple thing. Sometimes you feel so worn out you do give in and I feel like a bad parent then for being weak and giving in because now my son knows he can break his mother so that could reinforce his strong will knowing I may break so that is why I have to be tough. I can now understand how hard it is to be consistent and why parents are just lazy by letting their kid do what they want. It's a lot of work and people call it choosing your battles.

I completely agree, thought it's hard for me to imagine that the lab rat business would work on any but a few.
I was the sort of child who would resist anything like that on principle and I could always see when it was being done, and how. I find it almost impossible to forgive.

This is better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY_o8W9f9Z4

Thanks for coming to my defense League Girl. I think it's more of a misunderstanding than anything else. I can use a lot of jargon sometimes and I imagine it makes me seem cold and clinical.

I think ASDMommy's ideal household probably looks a lot like mine, where people get along, work together and more-or-less get what they want most of the time. My jargon and views do come from an understanding of ABA, and you're right to point out that ABA is not always amazing. Indeed, some ABA therapists do take an approach where they treat children like animals, without trying to respect or understand them. Modern approaches to ABA seem much more natural, and positive in general, and those are the kinds I advocate. Here's a video of a mom teaching her son to talk using behavioral principles (withholding reinforcement - tickles, chasing, hide-and-seek - until the boy speaks). I don't know her personally, but I consider her an excellent behavioral therapist with her child. When you watch the video, it seems so natural and fun, but it is also based in a deep technical understanding: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R66f8TZ6ww&NR=1
If you watch the other videos in the series, you can see how the kid went from non-verbal to very high functioning. I give at least some of that credit to the mom, and the behavioral principles used.

Ok sorry as well for the hijack. Lets get back to potty training.

edit: Adamantium - I watched the video. It's actually a bit harsher than what I was suggesting, but he has the concept of grounding in there, which is basically taking away all reinforcers until the child behaves appropriately. This looks very similar to what I was advocating: While the child is behaving appropriately, they get what they want for the most part, and while they are not, they can be bored until they change their mind. There are some minor differences between his approach and mine: the way he suggests may be perceived as a bit more punitive by the kid, but I don't have any major issues with it.

Last edited by EmileMulder on 14 Jan 2014, 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Were you talking about ASD kids only in your previous response or all kids? I thought you were talking about all kids and then you bring up ABA and I thought "ABA is done to NT kids as well and all that we are doing as parents is ABA, not discipline?" Now I'm lost.

ABA principles can work on all kids. And those general ideas that I listed work well on all kids. There are some specific ABA techniques that are specialized for teaching kids with autism, and typically the term (ABA) is only used by people working with ASD kids. As someone who works with both populations (ASD and NT), I see it as interchangable with other brands of behavioral parent training -sorry for the confusion.

I agree with your there, also. Part of why I used the word "some" was to attempt to be diplomatic (I really do try ) and the other part is that there are those that swear by that approach and I have no idea what the success rate is, (See League_Girl's post) I do not want to be dismissive of those who feel it worked for them or that it works for their kids.

I was excessively compliant outwardly but thought the way you did, Adamentium, about that approach myself, growing up. I was compliant enough to keep it to myself. So it appeared to "work" but I was excessively compliant and really anything would have worked on me. I also remember and resent specific examples of that approach, even now.

League_girl, I do not consider my kid spoiled, although he is "non-compliant." They are not one and the same. He does not whine and complain when I do not buy him things, and he minds me when he can.
He just can't always because what he is being asked does not seem reasonable or fair or possible, or he has an impulse control issue that cannot be reasoned or punished out of him. 3 hours is nothing around here. He can go days, perseverating, and it is only when he thinks he is right, not jus any old time when he didn't get his little way. It is not laziness. Different strokes for different folks. What works for you just does not work for us.[/quote]



I was not intentionally attacking you, honest. I have read a number of your posts and find you to be compassionate and helpful. I routinely deal in jargon, although, not yours, and generally prefer cold, and clinical language. I navigate it better, because I do not have to navigate the emotional content that tends to be more confusing. Yes, it might mean I misunderstand others' jargon when it is not from my own fields of knowledge, but I do not dislike it.

My comments come from the standpoint of trying to #1 understand what ABA is, so that members ask about it, I can post intelligent replies. #2 I have a specific prejudice from my disastrous dealings with my son's old school district regarding an application of a punitive approach that was based on "evidence-based" behavior modification techniques. So I am admittedly a little touchy when I see things proposed that look very much like what we had gone through. I am not saying you, specifically, would apply things the way they, did, but the similarities do seem evident.

My posts were meant to communicate that it is important to tailor the program to the kid you have, not what works for "most" kids whatever that happens to mean in a given instance. I do not necessarily think you disagree with that, either. I just want it to be out there in the ether,if that makes sense.

Hijack over!

Edited b/c I am an idiot with the quoting system.

No hard feelings at all, ASDMommy, I took it all the way you intended from the start. I'll start a new thread about evidence based practices if you want and we can continue this sort of discussion there. Thanks as well for the compliments:).

Cool, cool. I think a post on that would be helpful to many, here.

I am happy this thread was hijacked- the above discussion was quite interesting and useful to me.

ASDMommy, I've thought this before while reading some of your posts, your son sounds exactly like mine- just older. I am really starting to struggle right now with functional skills and discipline/compliance issues. Actually, saying I'm struggling is putting it very mildly. I'm drowning here. Nothing seems to work and I, naturally, am an impatient easily frustrated person- I hit my limit a long time ago. I have recently started to really lose my composure when dealing with my son and of course this affects his behaviour as well.

It's kind of amusing because my husband and I both subscribe to the sociopolitical theory of anarchism (no, not the molotov cocktail throwing kind- the Noam Chomsky kind) and we often say that our son has naturally absorbed this belief system as well. I do, however, believe that it is most often in the best interests of a child (and parents) for that child to listen to and comply with well-meaning requests or demands and for there to be a hierarchical structure in the family unit in which parents are the benevolent authority until children have developed a sufficient cognitive and reasoning capacity. But I do take issue, as you seem to, with methods that would appear illogical and punitive. And, yeah, they are not effective with my son anyway.

I really wish I could pick your brain or (yeah, this is creepy) have some kind of exhaustive documentation of your progression with your son over the years so that I could learn from it!
I'm out of ideas, out of energy, out of patience.

Feel free to PM me. I can't guarantee a whole lot, as we are not exactly a "success." If you have been following my posts then you know I am homeschooling and flying by the seat of my pants on a lot of this. I can probably tell you a lot of what not to do, (because I have already done it) at least with regard to how it went for me.

So feel free to ask me questions. I am not good at free-form narration, but if you ask me things I will try to answer, if you don't mind wading through tangents and weirdness.

My dear kid didn't truly potty train until she turned four.

The trainer pull ups are just too absorbent. She never felt wet or really poopy.

In a last act of desperation, I just put on regular underwear and let her wet herself.

Yucky! Wet! She got the message really quick

I also had bags of garage sale clothes, so I didn't do laundry. I just tossed the dirty stuff out.

She is NT, so I don't how the above message translates in your situation. I was one day away before calling a pediatric urologist. Incentives do not work for her, either.

We promised the moon and nothing worked.

My doctor said even the regular pull trainers can be too absorbent. He hates them for regular kids.