Terrified of what will happen to naive daughter

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Meh. I decided to never have children. Otherwise, I'd tempted to clamp down on every bit of their freedom. Things like sewing GPS chips into their shoes, etc. I'd be so overprotective, that they'll join the armed forces, and rant and rave about how much freedom they have in basic training/boot camp. After all, power is sweet, and it corrupts. So it's best if I never put myself in the situation where I'll have power in the first place. Or maybe start a business, and boss my employees around instead. This way, laws will keep my power in check somewhat.

And I'm well-aware of the those hunting rifle/knife situations. So I only date girls/women whose parents live in another state or at least in another town over 100 miles away. If her parents live in the same city, I go out with her a few times, but never do more than kiss. And if she lives with her parents, then it's over before it begins. That, and I keep a personal injury attorney's number in my cell phone, in case I meet some strict parents. Luckily, as I get older, so do the women I date, so overprotective parents is becoming less and less of an issue for me.

Last edited by Aspie1 on 20 Jan 2014, 8:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

I was there. That was me. I"m not dxed, but now that my daughter is... it's pretty obvious.

First off... your daughter does need a social life.

My mom was, for a long time, VEYR over protective and it didn't do me any favors. On top of that, like your daughter, I didn't understand other peoples motives. At all. She realized, when I was 16 that if I was going to go to college and live on my own then I had to learn NOW (then?) while I was still living at home and any damage could be more easily handled.

So she gave me what essentially amounted to a very long discussion about how basically everyone is pretty bad, don't trust anyones motives, and just assume close tot he worst outcome of every scenario. Then she gave me a calling card and told me I could go where ever I wanted, hang out with whoever I wanted and do anything I wanted EXCEPT for hard drugs. She said if I was going to be out late, call and tell her where I was and who I was with. If I was drunk, call her and she would come get me. Then she put me on the pill and gave me a box full of prophylactics and the keys to a (very beat up) car. She said she'd be checking the pills to make sure I was taking them or else the deal was off.

Keep in mind I never myself requested this nor at the TIME did I see the need.

Then she scooted me out the door.

Well with in a month I had a whole host of druggie friends. I never touched the stuff. I would just drive them around and was sort of their designated driver. We went places, I met lots of new people, it was pretty cool. The great thing about it was that I was able to observe the effects of the lifestyle. I was able to observe how people treated each other. I saw lots of crimes being committed to be frank. I hung out in some seedy seedy places. Generally I sat in the corner and observed more than anything. My friends, if thats what we want to call them because I didn't maintain a long term relationship, were pretty cool about it and if I didn't want to do something, that was great. In fact if anyone got pushy with me they would jump in and help me out. I was cool in that I was just tolerant of whatever they did and didn't judge them. But I always called my mom. She always knew where I was (I got a couple "omg... don't get shot" when I told her about a few of them). I never touched an illicit substance because I didn't like how it made other people act. Boys? Can't say I stayed away from that because honestly, I don't have any sort of moral objection to that. I think the whole thing is over blown and over rated at the same time. IT ended up being a "ho-hum whats the big deal?"

In the end, I was better off. Once I got to college (much cleaner crowd there) it was like I had seen some "worst case scenario" stuff , so this should be a piece of cake.

I won't lie. I didn't have loads of friends in college, but I had a lot of acquaintences.

Here's the thing: You are free to do what you want. If you never have children more power to you (figuratively speaking). That's great. Kids aren't for everyone. And if you're afraid that you'll lean towards abusive tendencies, you probably SHOULDN'T have kids.

In my experience, though, if you're afraid of behaving certain ways, you probably have nothing to worry about. You get nowhere constantly second-guessing yourself ALL the time. But because you do constantly self-evaluate, it's unlikely you're going to behave that way. I grew up under a power-hungry, verbally abusive, and manipulative father. It was horrible. I WILL verbally "lose it" with my kids, but it's rare that I "lose it" and I'm actually angry. More often than not it's just an act. The lesson that's intended to teach is that Dad is a human being, and being adult doesn't mean I don't still get my feelings hurt or that I CAN'T get angry. Raising my voice is a warning, and it reminds us all who we are. I think about my own dad every time, and at least my kids don't have to worry about getting a beat-down every single time they get just a little out of line.

More often than not I don't ACTUALLY get angry. My kids know I'm angry with them when I don't say ANYTHING. We believe in spankings, and when my kids don't even get that, they know that I'd probably do some damage if I actually went through with it. You don't touch a kid in anger… All punishment is directed towards correction. I don't get anything out of punishing my kids. It's for THEM, not for me. I never got that from my dad, and I worry at every turn if my handling of situations is the right way. Sure, I make mistakes. Everyone does. And if I have to tell a kid I'm sorry, I'm going to work hard to make sure I never repeat that mistake.

As my kids get older, they increasingly become little adults. Act like an adult, I treat you like an adult. You want more freedom? Great! I'll give you more RESPONSIBILITY. You want to play like a kid? Fine! You don't HAVE to be responsible. But if I have to be responsible FOR you, I'm going to take away freedoms that could lead to trouble. You don't have to be like me to be a good parent, but good parenting will often come down to this principle: Kids have to stay healthy and safe under our care. They don't need us if they can do it themselves. Our job is to step in when they can't, step out when they can.

If power is a concern of yours, you should read "48 Laws of Power." "Art of War" is another good title (48 Laws references Art of War). It's more historical commentary than actual, real, unbreakable laws or universally applicable advice. Most of the laws appear with various caveats--like what happens if the laws are broken and ways the laws can be reversed on those wielding power. As a parent, I chose to start out my kids' upbringing by rule of fear (of painful consequences for misbehavior). As they get older, I can ask them, "hey, what happens if you do X?" "Um, I get a spanking." "No…I mean, if I didn't spank you, what would happen if you did X?" "Um…" "Here, check this out…watch what happens when I…" "Oooooohhhh…yeah, that would be pretty dumb." Rule by fear is always effective, but it also breeds resentment. I eventually got old enough when my dad would hit me, I'd hit back. I didn't care about consequences because there was nothing in it for me either way. A leader should know he's in trouble when his people prefer death to the status quo. If you just beat kids and they never understand why, the teen/early adult years are just going to get ugly…and it doesn't have to be like that.

People who wield power WISELY understand that either power has to be shared or that people under authority will more quickly accept rule if they at least have the illusion of autonomy. In my household, I'm the big kahuna. What I say goes. My success or failure as a head of household is going to depend on then ability of my family to carry out my wishes. So guess what I do. I constantly ask my wife for advice. I say, "hey, tell me if you think this is stupid…" I ask my kids, "Hey, would you have more fun doing A or B?" I delegate responsibility ALL THE FREAKIN' TIME. If I have my hands full with my own stuff plus I have to keep up with the toddler, I tell my daughter to grab the diaper bag. My wife sings in the choir while I play piano at church, so my oldest is in charge of the middle child until the sermon starts. My middle child keeps the toddler out of trouble while I get their lunch tray on Wednesdays. Since I spend nearly all my time with the kids during the day, my wife takes over once she gets off work to give me a break--something that is easy to take for granted until the toddler's diaper explodes, I'm treating diaper rash, and meanwhile I'm mopping up vomit because one or both of the others just came down with stomach flu--and trying not to hurl myself. The thing about being a parent and having parental power is it is so easy to let yourself get crushed under the weight of the awesome responsibility of it. If all you want is the ego trip of it, you'll eventually go insane once you realize your supposed power doesn't grant you any ability to act. People on power-trips really are powerless. And what I've found as the positional head-of-household is my success/failure depends more heavily on how I organize my family/team. I can't do this WITHOUT them. They know they get to do pretty much whatever they want most of the time. It's when I do say "No," they understand if I think they're being irrational, they're hitting a brick wall. Give me a good reason why I should think it's in your best interest to date a guy with mickey-mouse tattoos and meth mouth and why I should approve if you choose to start a sex life with this disease-ridden, crazy bum. Let's have him over for dinner. Find out what kind of music he likes. See what his political views are. Does he even HAVE any? Practical, realistic career/educational goals? The bad teeth…is that a lifestyle you care to continue, or are you cleaning yourself up? Would you like to go to church with us Sunday? Hey, we're all going to see the latest Disney/Pixar thing this weekend. Care to join us? BTW, do you enjoy primitive hunting? Do you like crossbows, or do you think REAL men only use recurves? Compounds? Yeah, me, too. What do you draw?

And I'd be no different if he's some Ken doll who wears a sweater tied around his neck. I'd be no different if she met the guy in Sunday School. The Sunday School kid would make things easier, but flat out if I don't know you or your folks, you don't get to "know" my daughter. It's not about power. It's about helping my kids make decisions they won't have to regret.

In parts I agree with you, with about expecting that a potential date accepts to meets the opposites parents as well.

But at some points, you seem to mismatch relevant facts with "getting the son you always dreamed of". When it comes to teeth hygiene, meth... behind the interest of those are "scientific" reasons, why you dont want such a person as the mate of your kid. Because of that being of risc of effecting your kid badly. But not listening to the music, daddy likes, is not automatically effecting your kid badly. ^^

When it comes to music or hobbies, ... a boyfriend is not supposed to be your boyfriend, and to entertain YOUR freetime, but your daughter must be fine with his hobbies or interests or political views.

If he is an fanatic about some political views or intersets, then THIS is a reason to avoid him, because fanatics of any kind are always of bad influence. But in general not the political view itself. Just as the kind of music he likes, means nothing more then he likes that kind of music. You dont need to approve of the kind of music, someone likes, because of it not involving anything, then this person liking a certain kind of music. (Again as long as its not about extreme fanatic stuff as "White pride rock." or "rape-gangster rap" etc... ^^) As well that I definitly would not go into any Disney/pixar movie, until my own kids will force me to do so. -.- The movies are simply so boring, but still you are expected to not to anything else like playing on the handy or whatever, so its simply 90 minutes of torture. Not because of someone being a bad person, but simply because of not sharing that interest. From all stuff of parenting, thats definitly nothing that I cant wait for. -.- (But will do, if its fun for the kids.) Or your interest about bows....as midi-age pen and paper player, I do have as well theoretical interst in certain development of outdated weapons or their replicas, but its simply a rather geeky hooby, so in no way, I´d expect someone automatically to have an oppinion about them or to be interested in that. "Do you think the switzerland Hellebard or the french Pike-axe was more effective?" O_o

Shortly: He dont need to be YOUR friend, so if certain interests or hobbies are to your liking is not of concern, as long as they are as well not of an negative concern for your kid. You dont need to LIKE him. You simply need to ensure, that he treats your kid fine. If he does so, does not depend on him sharing hobbies or music interest with you. ^^

I see nothing bad about you taking care, that your kids getting a good boyfriend that matches her and dont influence her life badly. But expecting your kid, to find YOU a best friend, is not linked to that.

This is true. But that wasn't my point. Are there common interests? Any common ground we can either spar over or unite over? Is this someone who is willing to learn from me? Is this the kind of person I can learn a lot from?

Music just happens to be my THING, and it's a way of life, not a hobby. Musicians tend to pair up. So it wouldn't be surprising if I eventually had a student or, maybe later on, the son of a bandmate who might take interest in my daughter. Maybe she puts together a band herself and writes songs with a guitar player. I have a vested interest in popular tastes among young people. Whether I approve of yours or not doesn't mean we don't have a lot to talk about.


OK, so you kinda see my point...


The movie isn't the point. It's about participating in family activities. There's roller skating, bowling…whatever, but some kind of activity we all CAN do together and enjoy each others' company. I'm not crazy about much Disney stuff, TBH. I liked "Tangled," and I liked "Frozen." But, honestly, the last animated film I was absolutely crazy over, and still am, was "Anastasia." I wasn't nuts over "The Lion King," thought it was the worst music of any Disney feature like, EVER, but it's my wife's fav. So I deal with it. I enjoyed movies that still had the hand-drawn effect because they just seemed so much more artfully done than the more plasticky computer animation films. It's a personal thing. But, at any rate, those kinds of things are generally ok and safe for any age, so if you want to get to know someone well, especially if they insist on being involved with your family, it's a good idea to put together something like this from time to time.





Well, yeah! Again, though, not the point. I've never been hunting, and don't even have a license. If I had the money, I'd take up archery as more of meditative exercise…and I'd probably buy a 9mm Glock in case I decided to actively take up game hunting. I already have a small collection of shotguns, but I don't use them. But if I knew a kid who wanted to date my daughter had similar interests, I'd bring it up. Maybe we'd go out back for some target practice or whatever. It's cool when some snot-nosed punk can show a girl's dad a thing or two. If you're a better man than me, you deserve her.


Here's where we disagree. People tend to look at these kinds of relationships as having no effect on the family as a whole. I look at it as binding two families together. So, yes, who YOU bring into the family DOES affect us.

Example:

Daughter makes out with Meth-mouth-tattoo-guy in Walmart parking lot. She ends up pregnant. Mr. Meth is nowhere to be found. She drops out of school to have baby. Can't go to college because no GED; can't get GED because she doesn't have time to study because of the baby. Can't get job because no GED. Can't support baby because no money. Only way to support kid is through mom and dad's money. Mom and dad take care of baby while she gets GED. FINALLY gets job so at least she can help with expenses, but still can't pay for college. She ends up stuck at mom and dad's house while mom and dad take up most of the child-care responsibilities while she works. She finally gets accepted into a community college. Mom and dad have to take care of the grandkid full time while she completes college. Between 6 and 8 years later she finally has an associate's degree and has moved up to waiting tables on the weekends at the country club. Mom, dad, and daughter fight constantly because she wants to start dating again, but doesn't have enough money to support any kind of "lifestyle," she hates her parents, the kid is cramping her style. And all that because she decided she wanted a little excitement in her life back when she was 16.

Now, sure, the same thing could happen no matter what the parents do. But one thing I'm NOT going to do is support my kid after making horrible choices. What I CAN/WILL do is monitor the behavior for as long as I possibly can and keep her moving in a direction that will lead her away from that kind of involvement. I'm not going to have my family torn apart because I'm forced to put a deadbeat daughter out on the street. I'm not going to go through the stress of parenting all over again for someone else's child. I'm going to pick a range of young men who respect women more than that, who keep themselves clean in most aspects of their lives (nobody is perfect, I know that), and whose families I know I'd enjoy hanging out with for get-togethers. I don't care if they live in a mansion or in a trailer. Good people are good people.


It's not about a best friend. Just someone a lot more like us. My wife is my best friend, and I don't put my children ahead of her. My firstborn is my firstborn, so my bestowment of high favor on the kid is just something that has come naturally. But he has tremendous responsibility as the firstborn. I spend half the working day with my daughter, and her job is to take care of her little brother while I work. I get the little one ALL day long, so I give him the favor all toddlers are due. Everyone has their place, they are little miniatures of me by default, and my job is to see that each one is safe and healthy. It is up to me to control the influence because I don't want to pay for it later when I have to destroy my family by either putting them and their children out on the street or wasting my life taking care of grandkids.

If something tragic happens and the grands have nowhere to live, fine, I'll take them. But those are things that parents have no control over. If my kids do the right thing, I'll support them. If they want to live beyond my care, there's nothing I can do. There's heartbreak enough along the way. My job is to mitigate that as much as I can. I'd rather be the one breaking their hearts and dashing all their romantic "dreams" than letting some girl or boy do that, putting my kids in situations they can't reverse.

If I can put a stop to drug addiction or unwanted pregnancy/disease by making sure my kids never try drugs or promiscuity in the first place, I can live with the guilt of my kids hating or resenting me. And I'll be a better father-in-law if I actually LIKE who they end up with.

AngelRho, I didn't read all your posts, but have you ever read "To Train Up A Child" by the Pearls? It's pretty good and it worked for me. If you haven't read it, I'd really suggest it. I'm not Christian but VisionForum used to have it. I'm sure you can find it online somewhere. It's actually what the Duggars use. Its a very good parenting manual.

ETA; I had interviewed a certain notoriously pro life priest for a newspaper I was working for. We got to talking about other subjects. He heard me tell him hold on while I yelled at my kids and asked if he could send me a book. I said what about, cause I figured it was some kind of crazy crap. But it was "To Train Up A Child". He said try it. Don't go overboard with it, just try it. I did. It worked.

I'm familiar with that book. From what I understand, some of the advice there is a bit much even for someone like me.

You know I'm a firm believer in physical punishment, but I don't believe in using inanimate objects for spanking. One of the last time I spanked my oldest son, I was worried that I injured my arm. Admittedly, it doesn't take much for me to feel pain, but I AM an adult. Kids are different. I might have had to spank through two layers of clothing, but it HURT.

The way I figure is if it hurts ME, I really do have a pretty good idea of what my own child is going through. I can't gauge that with a tree limb or a belt. Even if moderate force from a leather belt or plastic tube doesn't cause any kind of injury, there's just a certain sterility to using those methods that I find unsettling.

I worry that it might be too easy to go overboard with the Pearl book. I'm glad it worked for you. I'm sure you'll understand that I might want to be a bit more cautious with that kind of thing.

I have a very strange effect on my kids, speaking of that book, that I myself find disturbing as does their mother. The Pearl book mentions fasting. I'm a firm believer in fasting for MYSELF. The ironic part is I tend to make my kids forget they're hungry. I make a point of writing down in my daily schedule when I'm supposed to feed my kids or I'll forget. So the fasting thing as punishment for my kids would be totally lost on them! I'm sure there's some good advice there, so maybe I'll check it out. But as you seem to be aware, you have to approach those kinds of things cautiously, as some methods can be potentially life-threatening.

As a parent I would never put my trust in some random teenage girl teaching my daughter about protecting herself.
Frankly children should NEVER be put in a situation where they are vulnerable to sexual exploitation involving older people (as in the case of the OP's daughter).

@AngelRho I dont know if you have any fully grown up children yet, and I dont think of your expectations of the future as something bad, but they seem a bit unrealistic to me. Its understandable, that you wish to spend as well time with your kids in future, but nowadays its not that easy anymore. Normally to afford daily living costs, both partners must be working, so both come home in the evening or late afternoon, and then nothing of the housework is done and foods need to be done. So the day normally does not end before the late evening, and I can only speak for myself, but at 9 in the evening, when I am done from work and housework, I am simply to tired to do parental visits or to do stuff as bowling or cinema. And out of the same reasons, we as well get to see our parents only every second weekend, because of us not having time for ourselves during week. At least every second weekend we want to do something as partners to enhance our relationship and do partner activities and spend some romantic time that is not about work or housework. There is no good reason to be in an partnership, if you in the end dont spend any time together, so at least every second weekend is ours to have, that we need as well to stay in touch with each other. And my partner and I are still lucky, so we found both jobs that are only half an hour away, so we could stay in the parental neighborhood. But if we loose our jobs, and dont get to find new ones until our savings are done, we would be forced to think about moving. About 2/3 of my former classmates dont live around here anymore, so they simply cant spend that much of time together with their families, that it would be of an matter to have shared interests or whatever.

In the end, now as grown ups with own jobs to care for and an own house to care for, as said we only do family visits every second weekend. Simply because there are only the weekends left as free time to visit people, and I think its understandable that as partners, we as well want to spend some time on our own. And big family festivitiies, with the majority of both families meeting each other, are only about typical stuff like christmas or easter, or for bigger birthdays, weddings, ... So sure people should be respecting each other and act friendly towards, but you definitely need no shared interests for meeting each other every 2 months.

I really see nothing bad about your thoughts about "two families melting" and "getting an additional son with your son in law", so there is nothing but a good intention behind it. But I think sadly it simply does not meet reality nowadays. When I will be having my baby holidays, then there hopefully will be a bit more time left, so I hope that I will be able to have everything done, when my partner comes home, so that we have more time spending the evenings together or with family, and we dont need to do the housework/cooking then, as it is now. (But then I again, I dont know if that expectation, might not be naive on my own, to have more time with a kid to care for, instead of working. XD ) But right now, we simply cant do much of that big family times, not because of us being unwilling, but simply because if we wanted to go to cinemas regularly with them, it had to be the midnight-auditions, and then you could see me and my partner falling in to sleep.

Gotcha.

Actually, I do understand what you're talking about and I really do sympathize. I think we're on the same side. However, what really blows my mind is how helpless so many parents seem to feel when it comes to managing their kids' behaviors. Parents really don't fully understand just how much control they really do have, and by the time they figure it out it's really to late to significantly alter the paths their children are on. By the time parents figure out they can, in effect, lock their daughters up in a closet and keep them away from sex-crazed maniacs (or figure out their daughters ARE sex-crazed maniacs), the girls are already pregnant or diseased. I understand how frustrating it can be. Bear in mind I've dealt with teens (not my own) before, so I already know what to expect. And honestly, I expect more from my kids than that. I've always expected more, and my kids have always given me more. Kids will always meet or exceed parental expectations; but that requires parents to work hard to at least HAVE high expectations in the first place and then push the kids to meet/exceed them. My kids work hard to meet my expectations, they experience frustration along the way, but I take it a step further by equipping and enabling them to do what I expect them to do. I don't sit my kids at the piano, demand them to be awesome, leave the room, and beat them half to death if they can't play their assigned work by the time I come back. I pressure them to figure out as much on their own as they possibly can, and when I see they're up against the wall, THEN I give instruction as to how they can break down that wall. And then I leave them alone, shifting the burden of performance pressure from myself to them. They have to become self-starters, or it's all for naught. In my experience, kids can teach themselves MUCH better than parents/teachers can. Our job is to set them up for it. The stage of life is irrelevant. Childhood is EASIER to deal with than teens, but the principle never changes.

I'm going to make this my last long post on the matter because I'm getting behind on other important things. I know what works for ME, and I think someone out there MIGHT possibly find it useful, or at least worthy enough for consideration. While what I'm saying is more applicable to NT children in a broad, general kind of way, the same principle applies to Aspie kids as well with all the necessary and appropriate tweaking. I'm aware that it's going to be more difficult, and there's no magic pill that's going to fix this for anyone, NT or Aspie. Always take this stuff with the grain of salt it's due.

...

What has happened culturally is western civilization has moved away from the mentality of people being INDEPENDENTLY successful. We operate under the mistaken assumption that someone else "out there" holds the keys to our success. This is true as long as we ALLOW it to be true for each and every one of us individually. And there are a few GOOD aspects of that system…it provides much-needed mentorship opportunities so that people entering the workforce and starting new careers have a chance to learn the business from the ground up. If they have no other aspiration in life than working entry-level work, and this kind of work is what they're passionate about, then our system is a good thing.

What people fail to recognize is that this is only a means to an end, not an end unto itself. I HATE working FOR someone. I don't like feeling owned. I like feeling valuable, that my unique perspective is welcome at the executive table. THAT was what I was sold on my entire life, and I was in for a rude awakening when I started actually looking for jobs. I went into a career I had no business trying to make it in. I learned some hard lessons and resolved to go it alone.

I've learned ever since to count my successes student by student and client by client. There's not much money right now, but the money isn't really what's important, anyway. It never was. It's about doing good for others and contributing SOMETHING to the household. I remain the head of household. My opinion is valued within my family…not because I inherited some position of authority because I got married and made babies, but because we share a spiritual vision. That's why when things turned ugly my wife didn't divorce me. We take our vows to ourselves and each other seriously, and those kinds of things formed the cornerstone of our relationship.

Most people count their successes dollar-by-dollar instead of person-by-person. When life becomes more about living from promotion to promotion instead of making service today better than service yesterday, sacrifices in one or more areas of life are inevitable. My family is more important than my career. My hours with my wife and kids are worth far more than any kind of monetary wealth I could ever earn. I'd give up being a billionaire if it meant I'd lose all that precious time with my people at home.

My motivation to earn money and succeed as a businessman is to keep enough money coming in to keep my kids in a good school and to maintain a bare-basic status quo. I'd like to do better, which is why I wake up early every day and work on my music. I know what deadbeat whiners on the creative side of the music business AREN'T doing--working. They're waiting for the music industry establishment to cut them some break, like the key to their success is winning the approval of a big record company. Um, NO…those guys are out to make MONEY, and LOTS of it. They aren't going to waste their energy on some unproven, no-name startup. My goal is to bypass an entire industry, find an underserved consumer base, and meet them on the local level. I don't expect to become a millionaire overnight, but I do expect to work my butt off and enjoy a modest reward for my trouble. And I expect my wife and kids to be at my side the whole time.

Why? Because that's what they do. I don't feel the need to push them away while I work towards these goals. I have the luxury of actually INCLUDING them. As my kids get older, you see, I can transfer these skills to them and make them part of the team. We don't just live together…we WORK together. And that IS realistic. It's already started.

My point is that this whole idea of "letting go" is a silly illusion. YES, you can't keep them chained to the nest forever. I get that. But there is simply no need for two partners to be working so much that neither parent has time for the kids. First of all, what in the world are you doing that's so important you are too tired to spend time with your kids? Second, what about those daily living costs? Exactly what are you spending money on that two people HAVE to kill themselves in the rat race and ignore their kids along the way? Third, why on earth are you waiting for every second weekend to spend quality time with your partner?

My day goes something like this:

Wake up at 5, waste time on WP, write in my journal, write music.
7:00 Feed the kids, get them off to school, drop wife off at her workplace.
8:00-8:30 Arrive at studio, get the toddler settled, get a cup of coffee, check emails, review the daily schedule, make notes.
8:30-10:30ish Write music
10:45 Lunch break
11:15 Pick up daughter from school
11:30ish Daughter practices piano. Depending on the weekly lesson, I may step in for some instructional time, but she pretty much does this by herself while I write some more music.
12:30ish Daughter has finished her piano practice, she is now in charge of watching the toddler while I write more music
Sometime between 1:30 and 2:00 I take a break to followup on phone calls, typically a Tuesday afternoon activity. Also a good time to review my notes and adjust any upcoming plans I might have.
2:45 Break to pick up oldest child from school. This is also when my private teaching time begins.
3:15, or sometime thereabouts, drop kids off with babysitter, required piano practice hour for my son, or homework time…depending on what the day looks like.
3:30 Private lesson schedule begins.
4:15 Pick up wife from work (if no lessons, or if there's a break in the schedule; otherwise she may take my car to work and I stay at my teaching studio)
Between 4:00 and 6:00 I've usually finished up my piano instruction time, pick up the kids from the sitter, and go home. I usually take about an hour break for some "ME" time while wife entertains kids/preps dinner.
7:00 Dinner, hang out with wife and kids
7:30 Getting ready for bed, reading time
8:00 Reviewing the day's notes, checking emails, hanging out with wife, reading a book, knitting, writing music, wasting time on WP.

Somewhere around 9 or 9:30, she falls asleep with her book still open. I gently take it from her hands, turn her lamp off, and try to fall asleep myself. We spend our mornings together and most of our evenings together. Nothing about what either of us keeps us from being affectionate with our kids. My day is filled with interruptions to my work, but I carve out a HUGE amount of time for writing music. So I actually get a lot done between playing with my toddler and mealtimes/diaper changes. I'm a quasi-stay-at-home-dad, with my toddler accompanying me to my writing/recording studio.

Wednesdays are rough. I don't teach on Wednesdays. But I pick up my daughter at 11:00 and we eat lunch together instead of at school. I play piano for noon Bible study. My son gets out of school early on Wednesdays, so my daughter might get a half hour of piano before we have to leave. My son gets a good hour in at least, and then he has half an hour to do homework before we pick up Mom. As soon as we get back, I have to get ready for a band rehearsal. My band plays a couple of songs for evening Bible study, then we run to the youth area and do a couple of songs there. I get maybe a half hour break between that and adult choir practice. Sometime between 8:30 and 9:00 we all finally make it back home, and we go straight to bed. The kids are with us the whole time on Wednesdays. The toddler sits with me on the piano bench during the noon session, which is how I keep him out of trouble.

On Thursday, my wife and I schedule time in the evenings when it's just US. Right now they play basketball at church, which gives us nearly two hours. We use that time to compare calendars. I go ahead and make out my appointment schedule for the next week. My wife watches me do this, and if there is anything that needs to go on my appointment schedule, errands and such that she needs me to do while she's at work, I write that down. Any to-do list items that don't necessarily require any structured time go on a separate list for whatever day they have to be done. We discuss any items on our respective agendas. Synchronize calendars so we know what to expect, like if she has job training days or if I have to go out of town for something. We discuss finances…how is our budget? Do we even have one? We discuss the low points of the week…did we have a bad argument? Kids piss us off more than usual? Something unfortunate and unexpected happen? Do we need an emergency plan to keep that from happening again? How can we improve over the next week? Then we discuss the high points of the week. Goals we met. Positive reports from teachers. A new composition project I just completed. And lastly, "Are WE ok?"

We do this EVERY WEEK. We MAKE TIME. It's just that important.

The way I see it, overworked, overstressed parents miss out on time management strategies, and that keeps them in a cycle of making excuses for ignoring their kids by placing UNNECESSARY emphasis on work. I'm not saying providing for family through a job is unnecessary…I'm saying we devote an unnecessary amount of time to it. Find ways of working around work so that you can make up important time with the kids and the spouse/partner. Family issues have to be discussed EVERY day. Notes have to be made on what is going on, and you need a dedicated time EACH and EVERY week to come up with a plan on dealing with issues that you discuss every day; then you need to ACT on those plans.

If you have a personal time-management strategy and you get everyone in your family on board, you're going to know what's going on with your family. That's like people who run businesses get slapped with lawsuits and say "Oh my, I had NO IDEA that was going on!! !" Really??? No idea, huh? Could be a good reason things aren't going well…you have no accountability. Everyone needs a PLAN. That PLAN has to be reviewed monthly, weekly, and daily. Keep your eyes and ears open, adjust as needed. If all you're doing is working all day long that you collapse at the end of the day and have no idea what's going on under your own roof, you need a new plan.

As far as realistic expectations are concerned, all you can plan for is what you have right in front of you, and right now my oldest is 6. I'm not overly concerned for what happens 10 or 11 years from now, but I do know this much: All my kids can do is what they are ALLOWED to do. I see no reason for that to change in 10 years. I can see that they will expand their range of abilities. I can see that they will be capable of handling an increasing amount of responsibility. I can see that if they handle the responsibilities they have right now at least sufficiently well that I can trust them with more responsibilities and the corresponding freedom they will need to carry out those responsibilities. I see no reason this pattern should ever change. If my children demonstrate that they cannot handle the freedom that comes with responsibilities, I can make their lives a little easier by cutting out the pressures that come with freedom. If we're responding to sexual urges that come with raging hormones, then we'll find some activity to serve as an outlet for all that tension. We'll get a couple of axes, iron wedges, and sledge hammers and split wood by hand. I can teach you how to play the drum set. Get you some tennis lessons. I mean…whatever, but we'll find some kind of activity we can all participate in to help focus your mind in a much less self-destructive direction. I expect my kids to resist promiscuity and using any kind of mind-altering substance. I don't care if its meth or simply sucking nitro out of old Reddi-whip cans. But, yes I DO have the ability to monitor my kids and the ability to respond to my kids.

If they choose to run wild and get in trouble after they flee the nest, I have no control over that. The only control I have at that point is whether I choose to enable the behavior. I'm not obligated to give them a car once they hit college, nor do I have any obligation to pay for school. If they're doing things I disapprove of, then I'll just cut off their financial support. I'm not going to pay for them to have risky sex and/or binge drink every weekend. And I'll sleep just as good at night if they hate me for it. If they want to waste money on it, they're going to have to waste their own…which mean they have to get a JOB, pay their own rent and utilities, buy their own food, pay their own tuition. Which means they probably won't have any money left over to have sex, drink, and do drugs with. Which means they have to GROW UP. Which means, either way, I've done my job as a parent!! ! Now, sure, they could do extremely well and have money left over that they can have sex, drink, and do drugs with. But they are independent, self-supporting individuals who don't need my help anyway. It is beyond my control. I don't HAVE to like it, but I'm not the one supporting it, either. But if they want my support, they have to follow my rules with the understanding that my rules are drawn from my own experiences and WILL find fruition in successfully completing education and career goals.

AngelRho, we disagree on a quite a few things, but in the post above, you nailed that one, son. You did. ^5,

As you may recognize, you mention your wife and your kids, but not your own parents or your parents in law.



I do fully agree with you, but out of that reason, we were working so hard until now. We build a house (rebuilt a ruin), and tried to manage some savings, so that NOW, when we are actually starting to have kids on our own, the big payings are done, and so that we can afford that one of us can reduce work and do some baby holidays at the beginning and only needs to work half-time later, so that there is time left for the kids and partner.

Its the parents that we did not have time for, because of us being forced to decide to live now the easy life and hang out with our parents, or to care for, what you mention yourself to be of far more importance to you. YOUR direct family = your partner and your kids.

And your kids will want an own family on their own, and not want to give birth to your grandkids, while they are still living in their kiddies room in their parents house. And as well have some savings, not out of the reason to not have time for their family = their partner and their own kids, but out of the reason to HAVE time for their partner and their own kids.

About my daily plan: 6:30 waking up, 8:00-8:30 starting work, 18;00 driving home, doing grocery shopping, 19;00 being home start cooking to eat something, 20:00 done with eating, 20:00-being too tired: Housework

Thats not a ratrace, but simply normal life for the majority of people with two people having full time jobs. And if you dont want to live that life while having kids, you need to take care of before having them. We worked so hard, BECAUSE we want to afford to work less when our family is complete, meaning our partner and our kids. And in your whole dayplan YOUR parents or those of your wife are as well not mentioned. As sh***y as it sounds, but your kids family, will be her partner and her kids. And you will always be her parents and be of importance to her, but spending a day with family, will mean for her, spending a day with her husband and with her own kids, just as you mean with spending a day with family and caring for family, spending it with your wife and your own kids, and not with your wifes parents.

There's a reason for that. My in-laws are deceased. My father died when I was 14. My mom is recently retired and still in good shape. We still speak often, but going for visits is out of the question--she lives over 100 miles away. We do what we CAN do, which sadly at the moment isn't much. We make the most of it and celebrate what we DO have…each other.

Oh, and I don't mean to sound condescending or angry or compassionless. We pretty much agree, which I think is cool. My lectures as of late are more directed towards what I see as a disturbing trend in the perceived powerlessness of parents. I do not believe parents are powerless. Either they don't really value their kids as much as they say they do (they just feel guilty because they think they're supposed to say things like that), or they feel compelled to engage in activities that take them away from their kids, families, or whatever else is REALLY important to them. You'll always be happier and experience less stress if you act in accordance with your values. It's hard to be happy with work you don't actually believe in. If you believe your kids are doing wrong but you don't feel empowered to intervene, you'll always be miserable with your kids. You have to either decide you don't REALLY care about your kids THAT much and just let them go, or you have to bite the bullet and take control. Either way, you're going to be a lot happier. If your teenage girl goes out and gets pregnant and you REALLY don't want another baby in the house, you're not OBLIGATED to let them stay long-term. Kick 'em to foster homes. Or tolerate them until the mother turns 18 and put her on the street. No, it's not a nice thing to do, but you'd be within your rights to do so. There might be laws, same as with apartment renting and foreclosures, that require a certain period of time to give notice before evicting, but those are options. You just have to decide it it's that important to you and if that's something you can live with.

Well said! Im a person on the high end of the spectrum and I couldn't agree more here!