Hitting vs. self-defense

Post Reply New Topic

The other concern I have is, that I don't know if my DS5 will, in the future, possess the judgment to know when to stop. At 5yo now, I understand it is part of his immaturity, but I can definitely see him being older and taking things too far and not knowing when enough is enough, and getting into a whole boatload of trouble for doing something irreparable to someone else. I think I'm making myself paralyzed...

I agree with this, or at least the culture I grew up in. But just like every other aspect of culture, it's very complex. Sometimes it is purely play, and engaged in with mutual joy for both parties (like brothers wrestling with each other for fun). Sometimes it is gentle teasing, that symbolizes camaraderie, like a boy punching his friend in the arm. Sometimes it is intimidation, meant to establish some sort of social hierarchy, like a bully haphazardly tripping children in the hallway. Sometimes it is a serious physical threat. The problem is like all forms of culture, the lines between these can be subtle, and just like physical affection, the consequences for misreading, or reacting inappropriately can be severe. Moreover, the rules change drastically depending on subcultures, and whether one is a member of the group or not. And then there's the problem of how to end a fight. Once you commit to a fight, how do you end it without seeming like either a coward or a psychopath? Either one will take a heavy social toll on a child...

So we come back to the issue of teaching a child with an ASD how to fight. And the problem I have with it is just as the OP suggested, if a child is socially incompetent, what are the odds that he will make a mistake in the complex arena of male physical aggression? What happens if he misreads a friendly punch to the shoulder as bullying and reacts in kind? What happens if he reacts to a subtle form of bullying, like a casual push in the hallway, with all-out aggression? He may win the fight, but he may also get expelled, the bully may pretend that it was all an accident, and make the other kid out to be the aggressor? These are difficult decisions for any child, and I think they would be much harder for children with ASDs.

I think forming groups that help kids with disabilities to be socially accepted is a much more important and effective way to counteract bullying. One of the high schools I work at has a "Best-buddies" club where neurotypical kids come to hang out with kids with developmental disabilities. It's actually very popular and has a lot of popular boys and girls as members. In a school like that, anyone known to be bullying someone that people knew had a DD would suffer a severe social cost.

I know that sort of cultural change is difficult, and maybe impossible in some places, but I think our efforts are better spent in that arena than in the fighting one.

DS5 used to be in martial arts classes and actually did OK toward the end, but then he started full-time kindergarten and it no longer fit into his schedule. I think I will consider this again for him in the summertime when his schedule lightens up, and maybe his brother will also go. I will have to talk to the sensei there to see if he can incorporate some of these valuable lessons into the activity.

I have also been severely traumatized by people. That is why I don't fully trust my own instincts.

If you can't, you can't. But the situation is that dad thinks he will be able to make these distinctions and mom is worried that he will not. Maybe dad sees something mom does not?

I agree that avoiding the fight is by far and away the best strategy, but you can't always do that. The lesson I learned was get the guy when no one can see and get him hard. He will not mess with you again. I have to say that actually fighting always made me feel horrible and I was grateful only to have to do it a few times. But if I had not hit those boys, I would have been put through sheer hell. As it was it was bad enough that I really wanted to die and came close. If I had not been able to hurt them back, I don't know what would have happened.

There were no police. No adults. No defense of any kind. Because they struck when no one was looking. They taught me the importance of that, and I used it against them.

I agree that this is difficult, but I think it is important to remember what the "S" in ASD stands for. There are people with some degree of impairment who won't be able to make that judgment and there are others who will. There is no "a child" there are children with a broad range of skills. If the boy can make some meaningful distinctions between friend and foe, then this is an important part of his education. It may be hard to make these decisions, but it also hard getting your ass kicked every day.

Sounds great. and lucky if you can arrange such protective social pressure for your child. I never had anything like that. In fact, the teachers seemed to agree with the cool kids that some of the defective ones deserved whatever they got.

I am all for it, in places where it's possible. But I think if you have a son who is not protected in that way and you don't teach him some degree of self-defense, you are really doing him a disservice. He doesn't need to do much to make the price of victimizing him seem not worth paying. Just learning to block is a great skill.

Nobody taught me and I had to figure out some things for myself in middle school/high school. Later, in college, I did a lot of martial arts and it was very good for me. My children both know Capoeira--they dance and sing and have fun while learning how to control their bodies for defense which sometimes means hurting. I don't push this on them, but I made sure they knew how to block, strike and evade. I hope that the reason they don't get bullied anymore is the good programs at school, but I am glad they don't feel helpless.

Last edited by Adamantium on 18 Feb 2014, 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This is great advice, and I could certainly use it with my younger, more thoughtful DS2. However, my DS5 is too automatically reactive and explosive (and it is hard for him to simply listen to me talk, period). He really needs to learn how to be less volatile, but part of his volatility stems from his perception that the world is an unfair, chaotic, and confusing place, and his frustration that is in part stemming from rigid thinking as to why the rules don't apply to everyone the same way, all the time. He tends to lash out versus internalizing his frustration, which in some ways is a little better because it is easier to monitor (when I'm there!). I don't want him to wind up being a sitting duck because he doesn't know where or when to defend himself, but I also don't want him to get into trouble because he is seen as acting like a bully himself.

As far as ever being sure when the right time to act is--I feel wholly unsuited to teach him this stuff, because I'm the type of person who can shoot a gun with great accuracy but would never know exactly when the right situation to shoot it would be, even if an intruder were in my home. I would question whether or not I should try conversation first (I mean, what if it was all a mistake?), because I'd be too scared of accidentally hurting someone innocent! I'm not the best person to teach someone else how to make split-second decisions. I'm handicapped in that arena, unfortunately.

Hey, Adamantium, would you like to come have a chat with my son?

I think we're more or less in agreement on most of those issues, Adamantium. I guess it really comes down to the child's own social judgment, which is sort of mushy and hard to be certain of. I think we differ a little in degree, where I err on the side of caution and avoidance a bit more than you. And that's probably the same as the difference between the OP and her husband (except of course they have more information about their son than we do).

I guess my advice would fall in-line with Adamantiums there, but maybe go through it as a hypothetical with your husband. What are the limits? When is it ok and not? Try to have your husband develop simple and straightforward rules that he can teach your son about when it is ok, and not ok. Then try to poke holes in it, think of situations where those rules won't apply. Once you've hashed it all out together, then maybe you'll each have a good sense for how complex this issue is, and how likely your child is to understand it in its complexities. That should lead to a good point for consensus.

There's the theoretical issue which Adamantium is articulating with usual eloquence.

Mand maybe I'm way off about how boys need to be to survive.

Maybe gender roles trump the ASD NT divide.

But do I understand the situation correctly, Mikassyna, your husband wants to teach your 5
year old to hit back even if it's his 2 year old brother that hits him?

Mikassyna, I see why you would feel confused. I think it's your job to be a civilizing influence and discourage this.

Moms and dads teach their kids we don't hit or take advantage of people who are smaller and weaker.

Maybe you and your husband can sort out the issue of whether you both feel your son is too volatile. If so, it will be very hard for him to exercise discretion and hopefully you will be able to agree on a plan.

If the kid is not going to be able to judge the subtleties of playfight vs serious fight then establish three steps of response:

1 "if you are getting hurt, physically, tell the person hurting you to stop."
2 "if they don't stop, repeat that you are getting hurt, and you want them to stop."
3 "then if they still don't stop, either LEAVE (always a first option) or RESTRAIN them, without hurting them, and call for an adult."

But you're going to have to face the fact that boys are likely to face violence.
And they are going to have to have a plan.
And at some point, they may have to deal with a situation that requires a show of force, in order to stop the violence. Of that situation, and of the ones that will follow. Boys (once they see a "weak willed no fighting looser") will only redouble their attacks, until they become unbearable.

Bullying has led to dangerous internal (mental) and external (scars) situations in many places/people. And you're going to have to realize that it is an epidemic... and not always brought to the attention of the adults in a boy's life. They absorb the "suck it up" mentality no matter what.

I was told at a young age "never attack first, but if you are in danger you will have to fight back"

I wasn't taught to fight - though I did get put into martial arts (Judo) for a year at about 10 years old.
A GOOD martial arts program teaches that you never use your skills to harm another person.
But it does teach respect and understanding of your body - which will help when the time DOES come, as it does for every male in a school environment (or somewhere - hell it happened to me once in BOY SCOUTS!) when they will be forced to fight in order to protect themselves.

Physically. And Mentally.

And despite the words of my father regarding "never attack first, but if in danger..." I didn't fight back until Grade Ten.

And I was bullied beyond what you would believe. I missed more "last day of school" than there were school years (last day before march break, last day before xmas break, etc) to avoid beatings....

Asses your boy. Do you think he's violent? Work on (your own) definitions of what is acceptable physical defense, and what limits you want your son to face regarding abuse by peers. Discuss with your husband what he went through and why he feels as he does. Read some of the stories being published about male bullying. Teach your son right from wrong. Intentional, directed abuse, versus non-malicious injury. That's all you can do.

Because unless you swaddle him in a bubble, he's going to fight one day. You need to teach him NOW what the limits and acceptable reasons are.

I think its ok to teach him to defend himself, according to the rules of Oddfiction. But because of him being very young, make explicite what defend mens. Even idiotic bullies around his age will not attack him to kill him. So around his age there will be no "life or death" situations, as you are teached in self defense classes or see in television.

In the end that means, that in opposite to grown up "life and death" situations, defending against an attack IS NOT about trying to critical hit and injure your "enemy". Boxing at the body, arm..., kicking against legs, ok. But punshes against the head, any use of items, or punshes or kicking at someone on the floor or that is not defending himself anymore, is not ok. If someone gives up, you accept and dont go for it.

If someone punshes you, and cant be told with words to stop it and there is as well no teacher around, I see no bad around his age in punshing back to make the "attacker" stop. But until he is old enough to be aware what is the difference between someone attacking you with kiddiepunshes, or someone attacking you in the meaning of seriously hurting you, give him clear rules about what he simply is not allowed to do. Its still about defending against other physical bullying kiddies, not against rape-murderers attacking with a knife.

"DS5 used to be in martial arts classes and actually did OK toward the end, but then he started full-time kindergarten and it no longer fit into his schedule. I think I will consider
this again for him in the summertime when his schedule lightens up, and maybe his brother will also go. I will have to talk to the sensei there to see if he can incorporate some of these valuable lessons into the activity."

You can also visit a few and see which ones teach what you need best. Around here there are a million karate places to choose from.

Again, it's the build-up of experience that is helpful to my son. When things are going at my son, he blocks without thinking about it, or deflects, etc. If you knew him when he was your son's age, you'd assume all boys would consider him a target. Now you wouldn't.

edited to add quotation marks

Here's the thing: your husband wants a child who can stand up for himself. He doesn't really want your son to hit back - what he really wants is a child who knows how to handle himself.

Come up with techniques that allow for that but aren't violent. For instance, we taught my son to go nearby the nearest adult and say "PLEASE STOP DOING _______________(teach him to be very, very specific) I DON'T LIKE THAT." and to say it repeatedly until the adult intervenes. Teach him to look for allies and recruit other kids to stand together against a bully (this is actually a significant life skill that is much better than hitting back and will work for him in adult situations where violence won't help him - like dealing with a bully at work.)

We also had my son take Tai Chi, the version where it's presented as a martial art. Even though he's the only kid, it's a great tool for all kinds of reasons (good for teaching proprioperception) but it also teaches you to use your opponent's momentum against them. If he can learn to dodge so the other kid falls down, even if the other kid gets hurt, it's not his fault.

Sometimes doing comebacks helps. When I was in 5th grade, mom told me to say to this boy if he calls me stupid, tell him to look the word up in the dictionary, it has a picture of him. Any name he calls me, tell him to look it up and it has a picture of him. I did that to him and he never bothered me again. Anther time my old best friend told me she didn't like me so she was going to bully me now and be mean to me so Mom told me to say to her "I am so glad you don't like me, that means you won't look at me, talk to me, call me on the phone, ask to come over to play, I am so glad you don't like me, thank you." I go to school the next day and tell her that and she says "You're stupid" and she didn't bother me.

I think all bullies have a weak spot, you just have to find it. Sometimes psychical fight work, sometimes words work when you do comebacks, sometimes ignoring them works. I was never taught to handle it with fists, I was taught to use words.

I'm going to post this article in two different places because I think it's pertinent in different ways - I hope this is helpful:

http://www.abilitypath.org/areas-of-dev ... -shoes.pdf

I'm shocked children with visible disabilities would get bullied because that never happened at any of the schools I went to. Only kids with hidden disabilities were bullied who were obviously different. but yet the kids who had obvious disabilities got more respect and had more friends and were very sociable while I had to be an outcast because I looked normal. But yet someone on my FB page got disrespect when her family moved to another area and she was shunned because she is in a wheelchair. She went to being an outcast because of it but at her old school she was normal and had respect from her peers and somewhere else she got none.

Thanks.

Tough and upsetting reading.

I have to reread for solutions while avoiding the bits that send me into rage and sorrow.