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ASDmommy and Yippy

Yes, on my readings of their posts on their site I catalogued and memorized their names.

Oh, well, that's great, nothing as helpful as keeping lists.

You know, I'm reading this, and reading MathGirl's "cure is evil" thread, and thinking of several other threads here, and about reactions to ASpartners, and also trying to imagine how it is that a parent's AS would not negatively affect parenting. I don't mean on balance, necessarily, I mean in specific areas. Given how much children need, emotionally - how much noticing it's important to do, and how much bridging to a social world it's important for the parents to do. Which in practical terms usually means "for the mother to do". Also how much one's own interests need to be suppressed --you can't go rattling on at children about your own particular obsessions, you have to be interested in theirs or they're prone to feeling unheard, oppressed, neglected.

What strikes me in thinking about the whole is the chronic minimization of the effects of AS on other people. Which, you know, is part of the condition. When my boss says to me that I can sometimes be overly blunt, I know that she's putting this in a relatively quiet way, also that she finds it a problem in ways I'm not perceiving. It's very easy for me to forget or ignore what she's saying, because it's not important to me. I don't, personally, feel the problem. But yeah, it's very much a real problem, and in some ways it'll shape what I'm able to do there -- and maybe even whether I can stay on there -- unless I can get a handle on it and keep it in mind. I will probably fail to do that just because I won't be thinking about it. I don't feel it or perceive it, it's not in my mind, and I'll likely forget more often than not to do the "don't be blunt" overlay (not that I really know what's desired instead).

MathGirl's thread, about curbies and eugenics, has a number of parents commenting on, not to put too fine a point on it, the hells they live in. MathGirl doesn't seem to want to engage this subject, and has blithely decided that therapies will just take care of everything. I've seen this on other threads, too, where people with AS are oblivious to how their parents/spouses caregiving puts strain on the caregiver.

We get similar sentiments in threads about meltdowns and how they aren't really abusive or a form of domestic violence because nothing violent is intended. There's a total numbness to how meltdowns feel to the people who live in the house with the person having the meltdown. And, similarly, with the ASpartners stuff -- I'm really not seeing the understanding of what the AS has put the spouse through up to this point, or why the ex-spouses might be so scarred by the experience that they're talking this way.

I think it would be tremendously helpful if those of us who're spectrumy could acknowledge that yes, how we are does have real and sometimes damaging effects on others WITHOUT BECOMING DEFENSIVE about this and resorting to naming every damaging effect of everything else in the world from butterfly flaps to meteors hitting the earth. If it were more usual to say: "Yes, I recognize that I'm a chronic pain in your ass and sometimes -- maybe often -- really hurtful, and please believe me when I say that if I could do anything about this I would, but I'm made this way and I can't. If there's a particular thing you want me to do or not do that'll help, please ask, but you'll have to be really specific. And other than that I hope you'll just protect yourself from these things about me, because honest to God I won't notice either that I'm doing them or that you're hurt, but I do care about you and don't want you to be hurt. If you want to try to help me improve that's up to you, but you should know it's not likely to be easy, and ymmv; please don't take on more than you can do, it won't help either of us."

I think candor -- over and over again -- about these limitations is very helpful in educating others about what AS is.

That's going to be harder with a child, for lots of reasons, but it's all the more reason to have a good therapist on hand who can develop a relationship with the child and hear when/if/how your AS traits are hurting the child. And talk with you about it, also counsel the child on handling it and working with you to see that there are cushions in place for the child.

I think too it's important not to take the defensive tack of saying, "Well, it may not be great in that area for a kid, but look at wonders over here." That doesn't solve the kid's (or spouse's, or employer's) problem any more than saying, "Oh well admittedly I sometimes forget to feed the kid, but look at how fabulous his clothing is and what a great school he goes to, and I did say he did a good job unloading the dishwasher." If the deficits are in areas that deeply affect the child, then those actually have to be recognized and addressed.

How did you find out? Does she use the same name there as she does here?

On a related note, to do with "NTs should help by finding jobs suited to people with AS"/"people with AS shouldn't have to make all the accommodation"

As I look at these lists of "jobs that are good for aspies", and think about my own various jobs and stints as an employer, I think there's a considerable lack of realism in how these lists are developed. Which, when you think about it, makes sense - - because who's developing them? Not people who work in those fields and have a realistic view of how the industries and businesses actually operate. The people developing those lists are in psychology and social services.

The only work I might possibly have for someone who had problems with big-picture thinking, social interaction, and executive function would be copyediting/proofreading -- and then only if the person could do a number of things:

- meet deadlines consistently
- turn work around quickly (copy/proofing is the last stage of copy development, and usually by then the job is already late)
- know how to rein in pedantry
- not freak or take it personally if some of his edits were reversed or ignored
- not be rude to or about the writers
- follow instructions without deciding to make "improvements" on the instructions

...and that's at a minimum -- that's an okay copy/proof editor. Would I prefer to hire someone who was also motivated to acquire a general sense of each project and could flag/catch/fix bigger-picture problems, sure.

On the face of it, my core job is aspie delight. Very research-intensive, minimal facetime. I edit scientific grant proposals and papers. But it's actually a very social job. I have to gain the scientists' trust along a number of social and professional axes; I have to be able to work with them respectfully so I understand what they need in terms of editing. I have to remind them, now and then, that I exist, so that they'll send me work to do. I have to develop friendly personal relationships with program officers at various funding agencies so that I understand better what the funding solicitations are really for, also so that they feel comfortable coming to me with suggestions. I need to work well with the people who handle grants administration on my campus -- an example of this, recently a graduate student turned in an important fellowship proposal late. I got the heads-up from the grants-admin person. Because I'm familiar/friendly with the student and her advisor -- and because I know the advisor needs her to get the fellowship so that he can keep building his group -- I was able to shoot him an email saying Hey, might want to help your student with this. He was on it right away, and the problem was taken care of. In other words, I had to function as part of a team.

And I always, always reread my comments and edits on scientists' work before I return them to the scientists. I almost always need to revise a comment, smooth an impatient edge, take a softer stance.

Similarly -- yeah, I teach, but again, I need friends. My course has been augmented this semester by having people come in and help out, add their expertise: a science journalist, a science librarian, and a varied panel to hear and rate student presentations. I only wish we had some sci policy people here -- I'd love to bring in someone like that. But each one of those invitations was a product of many hours' conversation and relationship-building. Likewise, when a chemist needed help figuring out how to teach his lab class how to write better lab reports, I was able to show him what could be useful to teach in the time he had, and give him materials to use. He called me because he's comfortable working with me.

Similarly, library work -- it's actually pretty darn social, a lot of it. Even system-development jobs...unless you can persuade the actual people who'd be using it of why it's useful and why they ought to adopt it -- which requires understanding them and their jobs -- and unless you can be flexible in revising your perfect system, then there are problems. Anyway -- I can't help wondering how many of the "good jobs for aspies" don't work out because they actually *aren't* very good jobs for aspies, not because the hiring people are bigoted jerks.

Lists are very useful organizational tools, but I am presuming that is not what you meant.

I don't even know where to begin with your post. I really don't. First off, thank you, for in particular blaming autistic mothers because it naturally is our job to do all the woman-y nurturing things, which you presume we are incapable of.

Autistic people are individuals, parents as well as children. Autism is a spectrum, and we do not all have the same strengths and weaknesses. What makes you think none of us can control "prattling on" about special interests to our children? My son didn't even know what my special interests were until recently. I tell him If something is something I enjoy when they come up in the course of school work, and honestly he seems to be happy I have some b/c it makes me more like him, and therefore more understandable.

What makes you think having special interests might not help us understand our children's? I find it helpful, in fact, in teaching reciprocity. I found it incredibly helpful having a parent wired in a similar way, and I hope my son feels the same way. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

I am unsure if you characterize yourself as autistic, BAP, or having autistic traits b/c of "damage" caused by your parents, or what have you. You should not be so sure we all share the same weaknesses that you do, or must have more of them that affect our parenting. Some of the autistic parents on this board are incredibly flexible thinkers and adaptive to their kids' needs. Who is to say that having to acquire coping skills and deal with an often unfriendly, alien world has not taught us more than some NTs have learned, because they could get by with coasting?

I think it is natural to become defensive when ones entire group is being attacked based on prejudice, generalizations and stereotypes. A good defense is appropriate when attacked, after all. I would like to think I still conduct myself in a logical objective, way. As of late, these attacks seem happening very frequently.

You are free to differ; just as I believe that those who insist on bringing these prejudices into as many conversations as possible are reacting out of the irrational emotion of whatever pain their lives have contained. I don't think the AS Partner outlook is going to encourage a whole lot of candor, either, because they are people with a lot of hate and bitterness. How does that encourage candor and openness? It does not. You notice they do not open their site up to dialogue?

I am sure I will post with more comments, as this progresses, but I have written a book already.

Last edited by ASDMommyASDKid on 13 Apr 2014, 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

As far as jobs go, it really does depend on the aspie. I have had multiple jobs with social aspects. over my work career and I could do them, and get promoted because I could fake it. The ones I liked more had a greater percentage of techie work, and minimal micromanaging. A lot of interaction in those jobs were probably with spectrumy tech people. Some jobs were of course more draining than others.

My father was more aspie than myself and had a job that was intrinsically social and managed to do very well for himself by figuring out how to achieve rapport with particular categories of people. I don't want to say there were no consequences to the family in him feeling drained and tired from it (nor do I want to make too big a point of it that someone would pounce on to exaggerate) but most of the consequences were born by him. And, no, I don't think it is really any different from NTs who come home from a draining, soul sucking (to them) job. That is not defensiveness. I really do not see a difference. Not everyone loves their job. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

I think my dad's skill at faking it gave him the ability to help me despite either of us not even knowing what aspergers was at that time.

ASDmommy, you're misreading me in some pretty deep ways.

I'll address only one of the misconceptions, then had better go take care of taxes. I said the bit about parenting falling mostly to mothers because in practice it usually does. I said nothing at all about either the justice of that or about presuming AS moms can't do woman-y nurture-y things. Nor did I say anything about "all AS moms" being unable to stop rattling on about special interests.

Please stop reading things in to what I've said.

Ok, does this not imply this is what you think we do? Don't gaslight, now. I am expected not to use my magical inferring skills here? What was the specific example for if not because you don't think that we can manage this?

(Also, for those of us with kids with interests like microwave oven interfaces or "nerdy" text-based games, I am not sure that NTs have an intrinsic advantage in paying attention to the child's interest. )

Edited for literacy.

Last edited by ASDMommyASDKid on 13 Apr 2014, 1:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

<massages forehead> I teach college classes. I'm entirely capable of speaking for three hours straight on subjects of interest to me. A few weeks ago, someone posted about her husband's propensity to do things very like that, and asked if it was normal in AS. She got pages' worth of "oh god that's me, absolutely, my mom calls me Google, here's why we do it, very normal in AS".

I'm well aware that not all aspies are the same. That doesn't mean there aren't broad commonalities among large groups of aspies. (If there weren't, as I've said before, it'd be impossible to make a diagnosis; that's what diagnostic criteria are, broad commonalities among many.) Where you're making an inference -- and an incorrect one -- is in assuming that means I'm saying "all aspies do X". I did not say and have never said that.

Also, what I've been trying to in combating the defensiveness is asking people to stop shifting ground as you're doing above. It doesn't matter that lots of NT parents aren't going to be brilliant in helping their engineer kids (although what many NT parents will do is seek out help among friends, which is why there's a dead Roomba in the back seat of my car; I'll give it to my totally non-STEM friend's takes-apart-everything son). I'm talking about parenting problems in AS. And if you're an aspie who's likely to talk for three hours solid on your subject of the month, then you probably need to learn how to rein it in so you don't steamroll your kid. Rather than, say, persuading yourself that it's wonderful for the kid because look how well you're teaching her.

Alright, then. If you mean it as A possible example of what an aspie might do, then say tha,t instead of letting it sit there as a general statement that implies that is what we all do.

Sure there are commonalities, just as NTs have commonalities. I would never sit there and talk about things all NTs have in common that make them terrible (fill in the blank) For one, it would be horribly bigoted. In the second place, It would be incorrect.

As similar as NTs may be to each other in certain ways I would never make the presumption that x percent/most/a lot etc. would be really bad at a particular thing. I might be willing to say "some" but once you get to "some" that is going to apply to any other population as well, and therefore be a useless assertion.

That is the problem the book, The Bell Curve, ran into, aside from being terribly bigoted. Whenever you try to make generalizations about various populations you are going to run into the fact that other populations have data that overlap.

Did you succeed in imagining how a parent's AS might not negatively affect parenting? If not, then you ARE saying "all aspies do X".

Yes, she does.

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 13 Apr 2014, 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tarantella, okay we get it and quite frankly you are pissing me off. We're ret*d, we're incompetent in all walks of life, and we're dangerous to ourselves and to others. If all of this is true then recommend to society that we all needed to be committed OKAY. Quit droning on how we're all f**k ups and either put up or just SHUT THE f**k UP! Get your buddies from aspartners and start a campaign to commit all of us. Just quit droning on and on how we suck. We get it. We suck! We're horrible people! Just quit bringing your BS over here. I've tried to be nice to you and them. I've wanted us all to work together. Fat chance! f**k it! I'm done!

Wow, what a way to be a smart ass.

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 13 Apr 2014, 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

No, I didn't imply this. I can say this with confidence, since I wrote that sentence. You inferred it. But you don't have to do that.



This actually happens all the time. NTs do this so that the world works. Most people, for instance, can't handle more than 7-digit memorization, which is why phone numbers are 7 digits long. Cars are designed with most people's limitations in mind -- you can't make cars so complex to operate that most people can't manage it (note that you don't see many stick shifts anymore, except in high-performance cars). Similarly, highways are designed with vision, coordination, and attention-span limitations in mind. Most people are, as it happens, lousy drivers. Teens are especially lousy drivers, which is why the rules are stricter for them -- and even then, a quarter of them get into accidents with their two-ton metal machines.

I write K12 curriculum, where there are entire books written on what most kids can and can't be expected to handle. It's an open secret among curriculum developers that the bottleneck is often the teacher, because much too often the teachers are poorly educated in the subjects they're teaching -- which means you've got to get the level of the thing down to where the teacher is, not to where the kids supposedly are. I don't see why it's so awful to say that many aspies are prone to monologuing and failing to get interested in other people's interests, and that this tendencies, combined and unchecked, can have some lousy effects on their kids.



Irrelevant here. Suppose Cape Verdean parents were also, as a group, prone to selfcentered monologue. It'd be something to guard against there in parenting, too.

I absolutely did not say this.

BS! Of course you did not say it directly word for word but it is the implication.