Daughter thinks I am not "on her side"

Post Reply New Topic

I think one of the difficulties is that, at least this is my experience, girls on the spectrum are taught to socialize and can appear to understand more than actually is the case. So you're trying to teach something but between the negative emotion from feeling criticized and the confusion about what was going on that was covered up by knowing somewhat how to act, there's a lot of pressure. I don't know whether I am making sense; I hope so. Because I cannot even begin to tell you how many times someone has told me I know something, and to do something, and I sometimes have said I don't understand and am told I do, with sometimes a (to me) bizarre explanation that I must know I did something wrong, and what that is, because I am asking about people's negative reaction. And one can be quite clueless about where things went wrong or what was expected and still notice when people start reacting negatively. And that unexpected negative reaction is unsettling, upsetting, making it hard to think and learn.

I'm not saying anyone here is extreme, just that a girl who is trying to follow social rules may appear to have better social understanding than she does, and it's easy to wind up in a situation kind of like teaching algebra, or maybe calculus, to a smart but not brilliant third grader. Too much abstraction about things that don't click, don't quite make sense.

Also, because looking through someone else's eyes doesn't come easily, it needs to be taught, but it also needs to be shown. I'm not saying correcting is wrong, just that role modeling is something an ASD child needs to see as well as have things explained because looking through someone else's eyes and showing you are doing so may be a fundamental deficit.

Last edited by Waterfalls on 13 Sep 2014, 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

InThis - I didn't realize your daughter was only eight! I agree with your plan to work on explaining things to her. I was definitely more involved and hands on at that age. It becomes harder as they get older because if your daughter is like mine (and I totally understand she may not be, every child is different) she may be even more difficult to help, instruct, guide, model behavior for as she gets older.

Waterfalls - excellent insight in your post - thanks for sharing. I agree there is a lot of pressure on girls and the confusion in social situations makes it even more so.

Watfalls, somehow in the middle of your post, something very basic dawned on me...one of the issues my daughter has is that she tends to see attack where none is, tends toward negative interpretations of the intents of others, and tends to get sullen when given feedback. These are the things I want to work with her on.

It just dawned on me that I am not immune to these tendencies. IOW, of course she is seeing my feedback as an attack. Of course she interprets my intention negatively (to take the other kids' side). Of course she gets upset when I give her the feedback. Just because I am her mom doesn't mean that I get a "get out of jail free" card that exempts me from her typical processing.

And she is one of those kids who "covers" very well. These days, most people who don't know her well probably don't see anything "off" with her at all. I think that most people see her as a cute, introverted, happy, bright, artistic little kid. She usually presents as rather charming, sweet, and funny. Then, when you get to know her better, you start to see her compensatory strategies. You will notice that she picks up things that people say/do that get a positive reaction and she takes them on as her own. The first time or two, you will not notice she is doing it, but then you will notice that she sounds almost exactly like the person who originally said something or her body language changes and becomes someone else's. You will notice that she has a "stock" of scripts that she draws from and as long as she can follow one, she is fine. Really. She looks typical. But sometimes she follows the wrong one, and sometimes she can't find one. And when she can't find one, all hell breaks loose and the girl you see in front of you is not cute, charming, sweet, and funny. At first she looks like the worst spoiled brat you ever saw, and if it progresses, you will see a full-on autistic meltdown/shutdown and/or selective mutism, which catches the person completely off guard, because they never recognized anything different. I warn her teachers every year: the first time you see it, be prepared to be floored. Last year's teacher cried.

In many regards, she is a "mini-me" in this way, because much of what I have described above is like me, only to a lesser degree. I, too, have learned many social scripts, and it usually takes people a really long time to realize that I am not like everyone else. For those of you who do not know me (I haven't posted in some time), I am not autistic, but I would say I am a shadow and I do have ADHD--the kind that happens to contain a few very autie-like manifestations. I actually feel that this has helped me parent both of my kids. It is usually fairly easy for me to figure out where something social is not "clicking" with my kids. And because I have had to deconstruct human behavior to some degree to make sense of it and respond appropriately, I can usually find a way to break it down and teach it.

But you are right, Waterfalls, the pressure my daughter feels is intense, because since she presents as typical, people often have typical expectations of her, and because she usually fakes it good enough, people don't understand that she is getting through her day by following a spider web of rules and if-then statements that guide her interactions. When that spider web breaks, or if there is a missing segment, it is like the rug is pulled out from under her.

It is because of this that I so desperately want to fill in the missing segments. But I am going to have to find a new way that she sees as helpful instead of attacking.

You know what is most interesting to me? When she is not involved in a situation, she is usually fairly good at brainstorming decent ideas about why a social interaction went awry. But as soon as she is one of the players, that ability is lessened.

I dunno...now that I am thinking more...maybe she is just tired of life being one giant lesson. Maybe she is getting old enough now that I need to let her learn some lessons by the power of natural consequences. Maybe I should just ask her--because as Waterfalls indicated, she usually knows that "something" didn't go right--if she wants me to help her figure out what went wrong.

I think another reason why I feel pressure is that her age is when the bullying and teasing started for me. Somehow, even though adults didn't see it, my peers saw that I was "different" at that age, and it put a huge sign on my back. Not for most kids, but for the most sadistic ones. They somehow new that I was a good target. I wasn't one of the spec ed kids who had teachers and aides to watch out for them. Nope. I was "one of them," only I wasn't.

I don't want that for her, and I also don't want for our relationship to be strained because she thinks I am not on her side.

<sigh>

😀you understood what I was trying to say!! I'm so glad, I tried hard, but know I am rarely crystal clear.

When I was younger and trying absolutely as hard as I could to follow the rules as I understood them and it wasn't working out, yes. So overwhelming. It took a very long time to tolerate and accept someone saying I was doing something wrong and change what I was doing after the fact. Though if someone caught me beforehand and made a suggestion how to behave I would work extremely hard to implement anything that seemed reasonable so long as it was presented with a neutral or positive attitude about me. Not easy for us as moms though, it's frustrating to want to help and be refused the opportunity. Anyway, though, the criticism aspect when I have been trying hard kills off the confidence necessary to try to do things differently if I've already made a mistake. I'm better now, just, for kids, mine included, belief one can is essential to try, and kids just don't have as much perspective that "I did something wrong, things might still turn out ok".

Sometimes I ask my daughter with AS what she thinks I should do about a social situation. Like yours, she is very good talking about a situation once removed. Her counselor suggested this, and I think it helps her confidence, helps her a bit to look at the social options without any pressure of feeling she is being criticized. And has the bonus for her of getting to critique me! Sigh. Counselor's are good at empathizing with what we moms do wrong😞 Worth it for us, though. She can see very clearly, for instance, when I say to her about a teenager "do you think she is annoyed with me, or do you think she is just tired?" Where in the past, talking about herself interacting with the same person, she might have said the person wouldn't talk to her and been upset. But when I ask the question about how they were with me, she will generally say the person is tired unless they are clearly angry. I think this helps.

My daughter is very much like this. If I can give her a set of rules and explain what to expect in sufficient detail beforehand, she can handle most situations, even if they won't be positive ones. But, if things don't go as planned...I remember one birthday party we went to. The birthday party before was a disaster because of the way it went, so for this party, we spent a lot of time "writing the script" to include what went wrong at the last party. I was very pleased and confident that the party would go well. Well, as luck would have it, her new script didn't fit that party and she ended up becoming completely mute. As we walked out, her brother said "well, I guess we still didn't have enough rules."

This brings me to another topic, unrelated to the initial one, but probably one that many parents of kids on the spectrum can relate to.

We put so much work into "preparatory scripting," and I have to say it is generally successful and worth the work, but parents of typpies, and sometimes my family, just don't get it. They tell me that I over-think things and to "relax!" "she's doing so well!" But they don't understand that if I relaxed! she wouldn't be doing so well, because it is the preparation that makes it possible for her to do so well. I am often seen as an over protective freak of a parent, when really, what I am trying to do is give my kids the best shot possible to enjoy some successes in life. I get really frustrated when parents of NTs can't understand that my kids don't just wake up in the morning and go about their days, reading the social cues and adjusting appropriately without a lot of work on their parts, and mine.

That is something I should probably put more effort into, myself. The ROI is just so bad for us that I haven't. I keep meaning to make a flow chart or something. I think impulse issues and lack of self control are still such limiting factors, though. I have enough trouble getting through on one or two key points, so, adding more seems overwhelming to both of us.

I end up micromanaging and working as I go, and that really gets side eye and comments from the anti-helicoptor mom brigade.

By the way, I like the word typpies. I have never seen that before.

Some people find it offensive, but I find that it matches the use of auties and aspies, so sometimes I forget and use it in public forums. There is probably at least one person who is cursing me out in their mind for using it as we speak

Regarding the ROI, it might be that it's not where your kid is right now. I mean, when I had to worry about my daughter bolting out of the classroom or into the street, or when if I let go of her hand in the store I was afraid I'd never find her again, the scripting wasn't really social. It was more toward "setting the rules" of behavior for specific instances. I.e. "At lunch time, if someone has food on their plate that you do not like, the rule is that you stay in your seat." For as much as social skills are touted, sometimes there are other, more pressing things, that need to be addressed first. In my book, impulse issues count as a "more pressing thing." Though I do have to say that quite a bit of my son's impulse control issues were probably grounded in not understanding the social landscape.

I like the phrase anti-helicopter mom brigade. I have spent my fair share of time in the trenches doing battle with them! The irony of it all is if I would have had typical kids, I would have never been a "helicopter parent." It goes against the parenting strategies I thought I would use. But it didn't take me long to realize that the parenting strategies I thought I would use were simply not going to work.

You can be empathic and teach the social things at the same time, in the order empathy 1st, teaching 2nd.

You are very insightful, and funny you said that.

I decided to take a novel approach and ask her if she wanted me to help her with social stuff. She gave me a tentative sounding yes. I pointed out that when I did that, she got mad at me, so I asked her what would make her not get mad and she said "I want you to comfort me."

So we agreed that first I will comfort her, then she will listen to what I have to say. If I jump right in with helping, she can tell me she wants comfort first, and if she gets mad, I can remind her that she told me she wants help.

So, I guess we will see where that goes!

Just watch out the help is usable. It's hard, because her social understanding is younger than her overall functioning. But for my kids the number one thing that makes them most angry is being asked to do something they think they can't. And sometimes what I think is easy, isn't for them. And certainly for me when other people have been angry I didn't do something they think I should, and they think it's easy......really isn't for me.

I will keep that in mind, Waterfalls, thank you.

InThis -
I agree with the empathy first - and I think that is great that you are having a dialogue with your daughter about how best to support her. Laying that kind of foundation is so important. We also did a lot of what we called "scaffolding" and what you call "prepatory scripting" with our daughter when she was younger and it worked great.

What has happened (at least with my daughter) is that as she gets older I cannot anticipate or predict every type of situation she will be in. Over the years we've tried to give her a social toolkit that she can use as necessary - basically different strategies that work for her to deal with different situations. In this way we are moving away from the scaffolding, which at this point she does not like since she sees it as interference in her social life. But then out of the blue you will have a situation that knocks you sideways. Example - my daughter went to a sleepover with several girls from school and an older sibling gave them alcohol (they are 13). Never in a million years did I think she'd be facing a peer pressure drinking situation this young. I did NOT see it coming. Luckily, my daughter was able to evaluate the situation and decide how to handle it.

I don't mean to scare you - its just that socially kids seem to go from 0 to 60 at this age. What you are doing now with your daughter, developing that trust will serve you well. And also giving her some ownership - that she can decide how to handle things should help her in the future too. It sounds like you are a really loving and supportive mom - your daughter is very lucky to have you!

This sounds like something that could happen to ANY preteen who is trying to please everyone--not necessarily just an "AS" thing.

I am not a parent, but I do remember being in a similar position as the OP's daughter, except I never felt that my mom was siding with anyone else. Here's what could make the difference (possibly--your daughter may be very different than how I was):

Do not frame it in terms of "right" or "wrong"--do not define what everyone else does as automatically "right" while what she does that does not match this is "wrong". Often, this simply is NOT accurate, for a variety of reasons. She will start thinking that she is always wrong if she does not do/think/say what everyone else does, and this is a very dangerous precedent (based on generalizations, I realize, but that can happen).

Rather, explain what is PERCEIVED by others as "normal" or "usual" vs. how she reacted/thought. Explain that this is just how the majority of the world sees things, and while it can be confusing and/or seem to have no "reasons" (in the instances where there are somewhat clear reasons, explain these), it is necessary to at least seem to go along with them in order to interact with others in this often-strange world. I learned how to frame things that made no sense to me in terms of playing a game. "Winning" meant doing things "correctly" as others perceive it.

This could help her understand that not everyone can know her thoughts and intentions, just as she can't know theirs (the "someone else chose her topic" incident). Part of the "game" is learning how to figure out their intentions (and yes, this is one of the hardest things for someone with AS to do--I still screw up sometimes!). As time passes, and she continues to practice and learn via trial and error, she will improve.

Explaining it in these terms should actually help more in the long run, and it will show her that you ARE "on her side"--you are simply showing her how to strategize and "win."

Hope that helps.

This all sounds so familiar. And yes, it does happen to an extent with girls who are not on the spectrum, and less so with boys, but in my experience with a combination of sex/neuro-status, it is harder and more entrenched with girls on the spectrum.

What a great thread... I don't have a lot to add, except to say that I have tried to stop "coaching" (that was a word I prefaced my comments with for a while, when it still worked to say "I'd just like to give you a bit of coaching for this kind of situation) and instead given her a lot of praise. I think girls on the spectrum sometimes apply their rigid thinking to our responses. My daughter even says, "Stop hating me!" when I tell her to please come for supper right now. Yikes. So what they feel is love/hate, approval/disapproval, right/wrong. Whenever we try to help a self-conscious girl on the spectrum, it feels to her like disapproval, that she has messed up, etc. and that is so hard for her to cope with. I try to tell my daughter often that she has made such great progress, she is the most generous person I know, and that I'm sorry something-or-other happened to her. Then, when she is not thinking about whatever happened, we talk about how messed up people on TV or people in her class or other people are. As you said, she can see what's going on when she's not involved; I am convinced that she is actually picking up on a lot of things that she will eventually integrate. It kind of makes sense to me as an NT who, like you, has some spectrum characteristics, because I learned a lot of my scripts / behaviours by listening to women in the kitchen talking about neighbours and relatives. It helped me work through the complex social behaviours and relationships and, as I got older and involved in more complicated relationships, it helped me to figure out what to do.

Sometimes I think that our kids on the spectrum, as well as our teenagers of all kinds, don't get enough of the unconditional love they need. It must feel like "I love you but" even though we love them deeply and want to help. My daughter is very empathetic, but I don't think she always feels the full extent of my love and caring, so I need to say it and show it differently than I do to the rest of my kids.

J.

I had a similar experience with my 15 yr old son. He had an end of school yr gathering with friends and I did see the alcohol issue coming as he was that bit older. I was completely confident he would not drink as he is very anti alcohol and we have a bet made when he was about 5 or 6. The bet was if he drinks before he is 18 he'll owe me £20 and if he doesn't I will owe him. It was a joke and all done in fun. Since then it's now gone up £80 and with his attitude to alcohol I've lost already. It was made pre diagnosis by the way so I assumed at the time it would have been quickly forgotten.

Anyway, no chance he drinks. But I tried to prepare him that his friends might. He got very offended by the suggestion they might do this and wouldn't discuss it. I left the offer of talking further open, it came up a couple of weeks before hand, but decided I had to be brave and still let him go and ultimately trust him and how we have taught him in general.

Although he struggles socially when he makes friends he becomes fiercely loyal. So at this gathering a couple of the girls in particular and one of the boys got drunk, very drunk, pretty quickly. A couple of the sober lads decided to head off to get something to eat rather than deal with things (turns out no parents were on site, despite contrary expectations). My son though stayed as he felt it was his duty to look after everyone, it seems inheriting that characteristic from me.

He soon became very overwhelmed and was heading for a melt down but he did great. He took himself off for a walk to give himself space. He called me too, just to talk. He didn't give me details, I just knew he was struggling. We had a general chat and I could tell by the end of it he was ok. After our talk he went back, pulled everyone together (in his own way) and told off his friends that had earlier bailed. How proud were we. I think the constant texts from us checking he was ok were the biggest problem for him the rest of the night.

The next day he gave full disclosure. Starting off with "Hey dad, you know what you said about my friends drinking.... ".