Illusion of Choice For Guys in a Relationship

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ASDMommyASDKid
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06 Dec 2014, 5:21 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
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I think that you are misunderstanding this whole thing about trying to do something based on what you call internal locus of control.
Just because I try to do something doesn't mean that I will for sure, as of course there are many outside factors beyond my control. No one is saying that there are not.


Okay, so we've established then that none of us have true control of the outcome and there are outside factors beyond our control. Here is my next question that I wish conservatives and personal responsibility advocates would answer.

If one has no control of the outcomes and there are outside factors beyond our control then why are people lauded for lack of personal responsibility if they do x, y, z and inadvertently it puts them into dire straights? I'm not talking about drugs, drinking etc.

Let me give an example. There are college students who went to college, got the degree and still can't get a job. The impression that they had like I had was all one had to do was go to college and one could get a job. Why are they called whiners and entitled?

To me, they thought they had all of the parameters known. Why are they being punished for unknown, unknowns? Why punish people for things they could not have known? I don't get it nor understand?

I'm always told one is never to blame any external entities x no matter the circumstances. Why? What is the reasoning behind this? Why is one never allowed to blame society no matter the case?



I think it is partially a function of intergenerational conflict. Some members of older generations make themselves feel superior by criticizing the generations that come next. They perceive that younger folks were coddled in a way they were not, have greater expectations than they ought to, and expect more help from their elders than they should. They think the "everyone gets a trophy" attitude is to blame, and if only they were tougher...

These critics are not also looking at the economic realities of today. College tuition used to be much cheaper. One didn't have to get into as much debt to go, and yes, it was much more realistic to work ones way through. There were better jobs available when they got, too. Today you need a degree for jobs that once one did not need a degree for. Many perceive that degree to be less valuable b/c more people have them, and so on and so on.



cubedemon6073
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06 Dec 2014, 5:41 pm

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I don't understand what you are talking about.
It make no sense to me.


Therein lies the issue. I don't understand what mainstream society is talking about and how they get to certain beliefs. That's the problem.

This is so freaking frustrating.

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Going to college doesn't automatically mean getting a job.
One has to try hard to get a job, perhaps many failures in the process.


I will try this again. A number of college graduates believed all one had to do was go to college and they slide into a job just like that.

Look at # 4 here. http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-we-ruined-occupy-wall-street-generation/

Even this person admits that a number of students were set up to believe this. Now that we established this. Look at my previous questions now. Do you now grasp what I'm asking?

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Also, who said that one has no control of the outcomes?
One doesn't have full control of the outcomes, but that doesn't mean no control at all.


What do we have control over and what do we not? What are my constraints on what one can do and not do.

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Let's say that I want to be good at something, and I spend a lot of time developing that skill, and I become good at it, perhaps that will help me get a job or keep a job if I have that skill.


You're missing my point of what I'm trying to ask.

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I had control over what I spent my time doing, as I could have many things other than developing that skill and not developed that skill, and when I had an opportunity to use that skill, I didn't have it and didn't get or keep the job.


Based upon my empirical understanding how are having skills sufficient? All you're doing is promoting the American standard to me. All you're doing is regurgitating American sayings.

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In my research, I could stick to the safe path of what I know how to do, or I could try something wild and crazy and new, and the outcomes for me will be different depending on what I chose to do.


Why are people lambasted for wanting to be on the same path? Why do I have to try something crazy and new and if I'm don't it feels as though I will be metaphorically bashed in the head? You're telling me nothing I've not already heard.

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On the negative side, I could choose to not do my homework if it is tedious or difficult or I feel like I can't get it together and don't try to do it or I would rather do lots of other things instead, but there might be negative consequences for that behavior, and if I show a pattern of such behavior, I will be partially controlling my educational outcome in a negative way.


I'm going to have to really think about how to obtain the answers I'm seeking and reframe in a way you can grasp. All I'm being told is x,y,z but no essences to these things.

All you're doing is regurgitating American sayings and slogans like a lot of people do.



btbnnyr
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06 Dec 2014, 6:31 pm

You can say that I am regurgitating American slogans, but I was not even aware of what slogans there were or were they American or some other country's before you said that I am regurgitating them.
I am speaking from my personal eggsperiences of what has worked for me in my life, as I have posted many times before.
It ackshuly works for me to try new things and develop new abilities or improve abilities I already have.
Multiple times, I have only been able to get a chance at something because I had a skill that I had only developed recently, or I had some foundation in the past in some area.
In scientific research, it is generally bad to stick to the safe path, because the whole purpose of research is to make progress in understanding or technology.
Also, I only find it interesting to work on topics about which the field knows little or there is lack of technology, so I can contribute to development of such.
You can disbelieve what I say about what works for me and attribute it to whatever you want, that is your choice, but what I post here may be useful for other people considering these issues.
I don't have good social skills either, I make almost no eye contact and don't know the right things to say, but people do tend to give me a chance based on whatever it is they see in me, whether my skills or the general impression I make on them.
Perhaps there is some positivity and confidence non-verbal cues that they can detect, and perhaps that is why they would give me a chance, along with considering that I do have skills.
I don't think I can subconsciously project those cues without ackshuly feeling positive and confident, and part of the reason that I feel that way is because I know I have the skills that I chose and worked to develop.
By the way, no one ever told me that college degree guaranteed a job after graduation.


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btbnnyr
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06 Dec 2014, 7:09 pm

Since this is in the parents' forum, I want to communicate to parents that it truly helped me a lot that my parents pushed me to do things way outside my comfort zone, as I have posted many time before. Of course I hated doing them at the time, and they were highly uncomfortable for me, but it was completely worth it to learn new skills, and I probably wouldn't have learned them or had a much longer delay in them if my parents had not pushed.


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btbnnyr
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06 Dec 2014, 7:18 pm

On taking personal responsibility, I don't understand what is the problem with this.
To me, this just means acknowledging one's own part in something.
Like if something doesn't work in eggsperiment, I have found through years of different eggsperiments in different fields that 99% of the time, the failures were caused by operator error, meaning it was my fault, I screwed it up, I did something wrong or failed to do something.
So I take personal responsibility for that, and then I know what potential operator errors there are, try not to make them in future, and warn others about making them before they make them and screw things up, just as others have warned me in the past.


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cubedemon6073
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06 Dec 2014, 7:19 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
You can say that I am regurgitating American slogans, but I was not even aware of what slogans there were or were they American or some other country's before you said that I am regurgitating them.
I am speaking from my personal eggsperiences of what has worked for me in my life, as I have posted many times before.
It ackshuly works for me to try new things and develop new abilities or improve abilities I already have.
Multiple times, I have only been able to get a chance at something because I had a skill that I had only developed recently, or I had some foundation in the past in some area.
In scientific research, it is generally bad to stick to the safe path, because the whole purpose of research is to make progress in understanding or technology.
Also, I only find it interesting to work on topics about which the field knows little or there is lack of technology, so I can contribute to development of such.
You can disbelieve what I say about what works for me and attribute it to whatever you want, that is your choice, but what I post here may be useful for other people considering these issues.
I don't have good social skills either, I make almost no eye contact and don't know the right things to say, but people do tend to give me a chance based on whatever it is they see in me, whether my skills or the general impression I make on them.
Perhaps there is some positivity and confidence non-verbal cues that they can detect, and perhaps that is why they would give me a chance, along with considering that I do have skills.
I don't think I can subconsciously project those cues without ackshuly feeling positive and confident, and part of the reason that I feel that way is because I know I have the skills that I chose and worked to develop.
By the way, no one ever told me that college degree guaranteed a job after graduation.


Sorry for interrogating you.

I think I understand what you're saying. I had to try various things to understand the concepts of programming and to create applications. What you're simply saying is to take this concept and apply it to other areas in our concrete world. What you're saying is to get out of the world of ideas and the philosophical and simply just try stuff hands on in our concrete reality. For example, if someone wants to make the perfect cake try different ingredients and see what comes out and record the results every time.

Okay, I know why I'm having a difficult time. I'm looking at ideas and philosophy to much instead of simply trying things. What people do is simply just try stuff.

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By the way, no one ever told me that college degree guaranteed a job after graduation.


I think I know what went wrong. A number of the Occupy Wall Street Generation and others misunderstood when the educators said that "college was necessary." It doesn't mean that it is sufficient.

Necessary means one must have x in order to have y. Educators and others were saying this. >>>College is necessary to obtain a job.

Sufficient means that if one has x he will be guaranteed to have y. not this >>>College is sufficient to obtain a job.

I think I get what others are telling me. I'm thinking to much in the world of ideas, philosophical and metaphysical realm.

I don't think you think like that, right?



cubedemon6073
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06 Dec 2014, 7:35 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
On taking personal responsibility, I don't understand what is the problem with this.
To me, this just means acknowledging one's own part in something.
Like if something doesn't work in eggsperiment, I have found through years of different eggsperiments in different fields that 99% of the time, the failures were caused by operator error, meaning it was my fault, I screwed it up, I did something wrong or failed to do something.
So I take personal responsibility for that, and then I know what potential operator errors there are, try not to make them in future, and warn others about making them before they make them and screw things up, just as others have warned me in the past.


Not a problem as to a lack of understanding of certain ideas when interrelated together. All I'm trying to do is to understand and if it comes across as I'm attacking you, please forgive my trespass.

For example, if certain things are unknown to me and in fact I could not have conceived of them making it unknown, unknown then what was my part exactly? What was my role if something went wrong that was to my detriment. Why make someone responsible and accountable for something that was an unknown, unknown? This is the main thing I don't grasp about American Society and the ideas of internal locus of control, personal responsibility and being in control of one's life?

What I'm talking about is called Outside the Context Problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excession# ... xt_Problem

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... extVillain

How is it reasonable for those individuals who encounter this and only considered his actions within the known context and be made personally responsible for detrimental failures caused by not knowing what was out of the context and operated within certain assumptions and the context? This is what I am asking?

This is what happened to a number of college students. They operated under a certain context and encountered an out of context problem.



ASDMommyASDKid
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06 Dec 2014, 9:18 pm

I know someone who is very fond of saying that ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking it.

In general, society places the burden on the individual to learn the rules of the game, and to follow them. You have no practical recourse when not all information is made clear.

It is something that on a practical level, in daily life, has to be taken as a constant.

Life does not come with a user manual. Whether that is fair or not is a fine theoretical discussion, but that is how it is.

When you apply for a job, they will tell you the surface qualifications, but much will be left unsaid. Some of it is because there is subconscious criteria, and some b/c knowing the criteria is part of the criteria.



cubedemon6073
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06 Dec 2014, 10:33 pm

ASDMommyASDKid wrote:
I know someone who is very fond of saying that ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking it.

In general, society places the burden on the individual to learn the rules of the game, and to follow them. You have no practical recourse when not all information is made clear.

It is something that on a practical level, in daily life, has to be taken as a constant.

Life does not come with a user manual. Whether that is fair or not is a fine theoretical discussion, but that is how it is.

When you apply for a job, they will tell you the surface qualifications, but much will be left unsaid. Some of it is because there is subconscious criteria, and some b/c knowing the criteria is part of the criteria.


From my experiences, I say you're right. It is that way. Gah! Oh well.

One of the excellent qualities of being in the USA is I can question, discuss and challenge ideas. I think I'm going to write something on my blog that questions this just for fun and sees where it goes. I just love working in the realm of ideas. As an Aspie, it seems like I shouldn't but yet I do. I don't know why. Do you have an answer?



btbnnyr
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06 Dec 2014, 10:34 pm

If I needed to do something in an eggsperiment, and I didn't know that I should do it, and the eggsperiment goes wrong, then I still consider that I caused the eggsperiment to fail, and indeed it is my fault, because I could have known that I should do it, but I didn't, because I didn't think things through. This happens regularly and is not a big deal to most people, unless it was a one-shot, eggspensive eggsperiment like Mars Polar Lander that got screwed up.


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btbnnyr
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06 Dec 2014, 10:37 pm

Ideas are fine to think about, but ideas alone don't help me become an XYZ, so I can spend my life thinking about ideas that are interesting to me. One may even limit oneself based on ideas that seem appealing. Or the other great limiter is fear.


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06 Dec 2014, 10:50 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
I just love working in the realm of ideas. As an Aspie, it seems like I shouldn't but yet I do. I don't know why. Do you have an answer?


I do not think dealing with ideas is not aspie-like, if that is what you are asking. For some, the abstraction may be difficult, but in general I would say ideas are easier to deal with than people. It is that way for me, anyway.

My dad had an (incorrect) paraphrase of a quote that he would often use, that I think I have cited before.

Dumb people talk about things.
People of average intelligence talk about people.
Intelligent people talk about ideas.

Keep in mind my dad was undiagnosed, but I am as sure as sure can be that he is where the AS comes from on my side of the family. So, aside from the obvious bias that equates these preferences with intelligence (He was a judgmental person) you can see the connection I am making.

It isn't that aspies don't talk about things that are our special interests (that is also a very aspie thing) but often ideas can be special interests, too.

TL:DR the realm of ideas is not beyond aspie intelligence.



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07 Dec 2014, 10:47 am

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I think I understand what you're saying. I had to try various things to understand the concepts of programming and to create applications. What you're simply saying is to take this concept and apply it to other areas in our concrete world. What you're saying is to get out of the world of ideas and the philosophical and simply just try stuff hands on in our concrete reality. For example, if someone wants to make the perfect cake try different ingredients and see what comes out and record the results every time.

Okay, I know why I'm having a difficult time. I'm looking at ideas and philosophy to much instead of simply trying things. What people do is simply just try stuff.


I think this is a key insight.

When people say, "You can accomplish anything you set your mind to," they don't mean it literally. What they really mean is "You should get out there and try stuff. The probability of success is sufficient to justify the effort." By iteratively trying again and again, and learning from the results of each iteration, in most cases it is possible to come close enough to the goal that the result is acceptable. So instead of trying to determine beforehand what is possible and what is not, the speaker is encouraging the listener to start the process of iteration toward the goal.



cubedemon6073
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07 Dec 2014, 11:42 am

btbnnyr wrote:
If I needed to do something in an eggsperiment, and I didn't know that I should do it, and the eggsperiment goes wrong, then I still consider that I caused the eggsperiment to fail, and indeed it is my fault, because I could have known that I should do it, but I didn't, because I didn't think things through. This happens regularly and is not a big deal to most people, unless it was a one-shot, eggspensive eggsperiment like Mars Polar Lander that got screwed up.


Now we're starting to get to the crux of this. You said "...I could have known that I should do it, but I didn't, because I didn't think things through." You're making the assumption that you could have thought all the things through. My question is how could you have truthfully thought things through in all cases? How is this logically possible without the possibility of omniscience?

This is why I'm against this internal locus of control, personal responsibility and being in control of one's own destiny in this 100% absolute way that our American society tends towards. There is truth to these things and I'm not against them completely but to me they don't tell the full story of the entire narrative of life. This whole personal responsibility which is based upon internal locus of control thing as understood in the American cultural narrative goes against common sense, my experience, other people's experience and rationality based upon the fact that out of context and unknown, unknown problems can and do occur.

Here is my challenge to you. Can find me something and google something that you do not know that you do not know? If you can do this and show me how it is possible to google something based upon my criteria I will rescind my counter argument.



btbnnyr
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07 Dec 2014, 4:00 pm

I can't eggsplain it in words, but such situations occur frequently in eggsperiments, when I didn't think to do something that would have allowed the eggsperiment to work better than it did. These situations are easily identifiable and distinguishable from the situation in which I didn't know that I didn't know something, so they are not like googling something I don't know that I don't know. They are a category of errors distinct from any other type, and they are caused by me. It is not like I blame myself greatly and feel horrible when I take responsibility what I did or didn't do. I just assign the cause to me and move on. If I talk about it afterwards, I usually use active voice like, "I screwed up XYZ...", "I didn't do XYZ...", "I couldn't get XYZ to..."

Perhaps for some people an internal locus of control works better than other types, because it is more difficult to consider and integrate outside factors, eggspecially other people, so it is easier to simply assign the cause to oneself and move on. I find that taking responsibility for things clarifies for me in my mind what I can vs. cannot control, so it probably helps me make decisions of what I should be doing towards my goals, whether a small thing like one eggsperiment or the bigger picture like my career. Like trying things, it is an approach that works for me, and I find that things generally go better when I do it and make note of it in my mind. Even on an eggsperiment, I think that taking personal responsibility for causing an failure adds strength to prevention of the same error in the next eggsperiment. If I assigned the cause completely outside myself, I might not be as good at preventing it next time.

About the world of ideas, I know that if I want to see my ideas in front of my eyes instead of behind, I need to do many things to get them out of my mind and into concrete reality. The best thing is to try in small steps, which if they work, tend to build quickly towards a quick and dirty first working version. Then, it is time to test, refine, and challenge the system to discover how to make it better and cleaner. One of the few things I say to myself is, "shut up and do it".


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07 Dec 2014, 5:16 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
If I needed to do something in an eggsperiment, and I didn't know that I should do it, and the eggsperiment goes wrong, then I still consider that I caused the eggsperiment to fail, and indeed it is my fault, because I could have known that I should do it, but I didn't, because I didn't think things through. This happens regularly and is not a big deal to most people, unless it was a one-shot, eggspensive eggsperiment like Mars Polar Lander that got screwed up.


Now we're starting to get to the crux of this. You said "...I could have known that I should do it, but I didn't, because I didn't think things through." You're making the assumption that you could have thought all the things through. My question is how could you have truthfully thought things through in all cases? How is this logically possible without the possibility of omniscience?



The crux is that she/he forgot something. So after the experiment goes wrong you start again, retrace your steps and figure out how to hopefully not make it go wrong the next time.
It's a learning process.. And unlike the Mars Polar Lander you can adapt your parenting skills as you go along.
There are always external factors that you can not account for and that is what they call Sod's law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sod's_law