Grandbaby misbehavior. Suggestions?

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Obviously you're gonna do what you want, but I call total BS about being hit with a hand hurting more than being hit with a stick. I've been hit with both - and the stick hurts more. The laws of physics will back me up on that, too. Plus the advantage of hitting with the hand is that the spanker has physical FEEDBACK on how hard they're hitting.

Then you are obviously not aware of exactly I'm talking about when I say a hickory. I've been spanked with both too, as have my kids. I just asked the three of them that are here right now, and two other friends of theirs who are here which they thought huts the most. They said the hand hurts worse and the hickory just stung for a moment or three. So, whatever you have seen used that was called a hickory is obviously not the same thing that we use down here.

If you have been hit by your parents with a rigid stick, then I feel very sorry for you. I've never hit my kids with a rigid or thick stick. The purpose of the hickory is to sting. Maybe it's the idea of using something to spank with that is bothering you. You should see what the school uses here. They have a big wooden paddle that they use, thats about an inch thick. It's got painted on it, as they always do as a cheesy pun, "Board of Education". I've never used a paddle but I've had one used on me at school. I've also never seen a paddle used anywhere but at a school, I've never met anybody who had one at home.

I really despise it when people say that, it is so ... arrogant, close minded, self-serving, holier than thou? ... not sure of the right word or phrase but, really, to suggest that people who support spanking are the only ones raising thoughtful children is 100% ridiculous. I do not spank, I very carefully avoided getting into any debate on that when I posted earlier, but I have had so many people admire my children's behavior and then whisper to me how they hate parents who don't spank, assuming that since my children are behaving I must support spanking, that it makes my skin crawl. What am I supposed to say to that? I wasn't given miraculously good children, but I HAVE TAUGHT them. I simply do not consider pain to be the most effective method for teaching. I think other things work better. No one has to agree with me but, PLEASE, don't denigrate my parenting philosophy with baseless assumptions. I've got enough proof in front of my own eyes and from the words of people around me to know that I've done OK and that my kids are NOT brats. Sorry, but you've touched a nerve. Your kids are spouting garbage when they say that, and I realize that their entire world enforces the viewpoint but, please, tell them it just is not true. Just because their community does not seem to know or fully understand all the alternate methods does not mean they don't exist.

Different parents choose different tools for their parenting tool box, I accept that, but what I've observed is that it isn't the tools that matter, it is how you use them. Clarity and consistency are paramount, end of story. Clarity and consistency. You don't have to have spanking in the tool box to raise good kids, and you can fail miserably as a parent even if you do have it in your tool box. The tools chosen will NEVER supplant the necessity of clarity and consistency, which are the two most difficult elements to produce as a parent.

If you notice, I said "parents who refuse to spank when they need to". I did not say parents who don't spank. Some children don't need spanking, others do. My youngest two rarely did and my youngest daughter probably got maybe 3 spankings in her life, and that includes a swat on a diapered butt and a pop on the hand. I don't think anybody has to spank, but I think that if none of the other tools are working then spanking is called for, or at least trying it. It may not work either, but if nothing else worked, it's worth a try.

Spanking isn't supposed to be the first thing you try. It's the last resort when other things don't work. As for clarity and consistency, I was usually both. You have to be because otherwise kids get confused. Rules that are enforced one day and disregarded the next don't teach them anything except they can be sure of nothing. Consistent rules are security as well. When they are enforced, they know how things work and if's familiar. If parents are wishy washy on enforcing rules then every day they will wonder if they are going to have strict mom or lenient mom. That's not good.

No matter what form of punishment you use for your kids, it's always work. You have to monitor their behavior and correct it bu whatever way you have chosen. I always just told them what I wanted them to do and said please at first. That worked a lot of times, but just as many times it didn't. When it didn't thats when I'd have to take into consideration the kids personality, the situation, what he did that was wrong, what all was going on with him right then, his age, and then decide how to punish. I'd usually take things away or ground them or give them a time out, but sometimes I'd spank. I also signed the form to let my boys be spanked at school and for the girls I signed the space that said to call me and ask beforehand every time they want to spank them. I didn't usually let them get spanked unless they were in jr high and said they would rather get the licks with the paddle than ISD, so I'd let them make their own choice. My youngest son reacted badly to being spanked by the school so for a while I wouldn't let them spank him.

Spanking isn't something that must be done all the time and by everyone. Saying what I said is no more holier than thou or arrogant than most of the antispanking people who say that it's abuse and wrong and the child should be taken from the parents etc. I know you didn't say that, and I'm not saying you did. I actually read what you said carefully and got your point. Many do say that though, just as many spankers say that parents who don't ever spank are raising brats, which is not what I said. I said parents who refuse to when the child needs it. Thats a very different kettle of fish.

The thing with methods of reinforcement, is that if they're not effective you're not actually changing the situation. I'm not suggesting that everything should be ditched after the first attempt, but if something isn't serving its purpose you need to try something else. It sounds like spanking hasn't had the desired effect, but that doesn't mean more spanking.

I agree with the poster who said that the child needs consistency - if you're not planning on being abusive (and I don't believe you are), then you really need to pick a method that you can repeat over and over.

It may be that your kids grew up fine. I'm glad to hear it, but your grandchild is coming from a chaotic and potentially fearful environment. She needs to be shown love and care. Children will often continue learnt behaviours from previous settings into their current setting, even if the new setting is caring.

Children coming into new situations and especially those from chaotic environments will persistently test the boundaries of their new situation. This is usually because they don't feel safe (even when you know that you're providing a safe environment). So you need a discipline method that you're willing to do a lot and that will allow the child to become confident that when I do x, grandma will do y.

Being very controlling of the environment (e.g., food) can also be a sign that the child is trying to manage their environment. It may help if you think of the child as very scared and anxious under all that anger. Also remember that your grandchild has good reason to be angry - she has experienced lots of instability and neglect (at the very least, emotionally - as mum is willing to drop her off on whim).

There are very effective programmes out there for children with Behavioural, Emotional and Social Difficulties (these are what they're called in the UK - you may need to find equivalent terms). It might be worth finding out information or joining a course for parents/carers with problems specific to these difficulties. Just like parents of ASD children learn new parenting strategies to suit the ASD child, the BESD child may respond counter intuitively to 'normal' parenting stratergies and better to other methods.

HOWEVER, as I've remembered they're more popular in the USA - please, please steer clear of 'extreme' parenting advise such as some American advice for children with 'Reactive Attachment Disorder' or 'Attachment Disorder' - these are real issues but have been significantly changed in scientifically and ethically questionable ways to encourage dangerous parenting techniques. Methods such as 'teaching the child who's boss' are also potentially abusive and do not target the root problem.

A good place to start might be on a forum or information site for foster or adoptive parents as they may well be dealing with issues more relevant to your grandchild.

Best of luck!

OOM, it is my opinion that there are ALWAYS alternatives. I don't believe that a parent ever "needs" to spank, or that there is a child on this earth for whom that is the ONLY possible way for correction to occur. People who believe like I do are not magically blessed to only have children who somehow never need to be spanked; we just work much harder at viable solutions when the difficult situations roll in.

The phrase your kids use IS passing negative judgment whether you realize it or not.

Again, I won't judge a parent's choice to put spanking in their toolbox, but please do NOT insist that sometimes that is the only tool that can be used on certain children, or least should be experimented with in some cases, because then you are judging me for keeping it 100% out of my toolbox. Certainly I was forced at times to work extra hard to figure out how to reach my child, but there is always a way to teach what needs to be taught. Parents who feel like I do are NOT raising a disproportionate percentage of misbehaving kids; that we are is a fantasy of those looking for unnecessary validation of their own toolbox choices. Own your choices for what they are: choices, and don't throw around phrases that disparage those who make different ones.

All that said, I never wanted to argue about this, and I hope that you were able to improve things with your granddaughter when she was staying with you. I hope that some of the suggestions in this thread helped at least a little.