toe walkers?

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Well, obviously we are already autism parents to start with. So, we are discussing toe-walking to help us, not to diagnose others' kids. There are a lot of so-called "irrelevant" traits that autism parents are concerned about that aren't mentioned in the DSM-IV. It's amazing when you actually get together and start bring them up, how many commonalities come up.
I don't see any threat in this discussion.

A lot of autism parents are socially isolated and don't always know where certain traits come from or what they mean. My son was 2 1/2 and I had no clue he was autistic. He wasn't speaking, didn't make eye contact, didn't want to be held or redirected, acted deaf to his name or commands, treated people like furniture, was startled at sudden noise, spun, was extremely disorganized. All that and more. Yet, I wasn't around other kids. He was "just like" my husband and me when we were kids. (my husband didn't talk until 4, I hated being held)
There are additional traits that stem from sensory integration disorder or executive dysfunction that aren't mentioned in the DSM-IV. Picky eating, sleeping problems are rarely brought up by professionals.
I didn't even think about toe-walking until my son was around 4 and someone was upset that her daughter was doing it. We looked around and most, if not all, the kids were doing it. The other mother was concerned because she feared it would damage her daughter's tendons over the long-term and I believe it hindered her ability to stop quickly.

Besides the DSM-IV isn't the end-all Be-all. I think autism is a work in progress.


PS I just reviewed the thread and recalled that you started it. So, I guess I'm really confused.

Then, apparently, Kim, you wouldn't be one of the parents I'd be referring to based on the description of your child--sounds like classic autistic traits. There was much more than simpy walking on toes.

Autism is now out there more than ever. My concern would be that, similar to ADHD, kids would be misdiagnosed with autism when in fact they don't have it. As you know, some three-year olds are being diagnosed with AS (not sure how this is possible). The video shows a child walking on her tip toes and this is an autistic child. Parents, worried, and not knowledgeable enough about ASD's might overreacte. This was my point.

It's an interesting topic to me so I brought it up because I was curious about other's ideas, other toe-walkers, and how significant others rated toe walking/sensory issues as a detemining factor for ASD's.

I started the thread, and continued it accordingly. Not sure about the confusion.

equinn

The confusion comes in because I assumed you were starting this topic with "does your child do this too?" A point of commonality that often comes up. Then your last posts reflect that you find toe-walking "irrelevant" to autism and in fact a possible cause in misdiagnosis.

I agree diagnosing a 3-year old with Asperger's sounds pretty tough. I don't think my own autistic traits came up (as a problem) until 2nd grade. Aside from my son's obvious autistic traits and developmental delays, his "social" troubles have only just begun at 7. And I have to admit, sometimes I don't understand the need for special ed for "social impairments" when those are the least of our troubles. I do think some people are describing plain old autistic kids when they say, "Asperger's". I wonder if some BAP's are being diagnosed with Asperger's., (BAPs are people that have some autistic traits but aren't disabled or have enough to be properly dx'ed with ASD-it's used to describe parents of autistic children who share some traits)

However, I find it a stretch to fear that a parent would seek a diagnosis based on toe-walking.

"am I onto something?"

This was my last comment on that particular post. I've worked through to an understanding that, yes, perhaps kids are understood too much by their posture, stance, physical appearance--toe walking, and considered possibly on the spectrum when in fact they really are not.

It might be a stretch. Yet, look how many kids were caught up in the ADHD category that were later diagnosed as autistic or might have been just a normal, active kids that happen to talk or fidget too much.

Again, toe walking is considered a "classic autistic trait" but the kids I've observed with definite autism walk flat footed. I do notice head jerking, hand flicking and other movements as a commonallity--but toe -walking I've never seen in autistic people. I have seen it in people/kids that are NT though.

Based on my primitive research and super ability to observe and detect patterns (joke), I do think, as I mentioned, I'm onto something.

equinn

okay, I can see that. Like I said, my observations are the opposite. Also, I believed my son's toe-walking to be a developmental thing. He doesn't do it anymore noticeably and if he does, it's masked. Actually a lot of his stims fly under the radar. He has developed special interests that disguise his need to spin or walk funny or play with his hands.

It is my understanding that Aspergers is not dx'd until the age of 8, at least that is what 2 different doctors have told me.

All the 3 yr olds in my son's class with an ASD dx are listed by the school district with developmental delays, except one with HFA. My son's official dx is PDD-NOS by the doctors. None of the PDD-NOS kids are toe walkers, and also not as active as the HFA boy. Don't know if that is a coincidence or not. I haven't actually seen the HFA boy toe-walk, but his movements are significantly faster, jerkier, and tighter than the other kids, even the typical kids.

I think a differentiation needs to be made between a) NORMAL toe-walking in infants and young toddlers v.s. toe-walking in older children who already know how to walk, and walk well.
Also, are we talking about Aspergers or just autism in general? I have worked with 3 hfa kids who were toe-walkers (not constantly, but when agitated or excited), around the ages of 5-7.

I agree that not everyone with sensory issues should be dx'd with ASD. My nephew had a lot of sensory problems, but I don't consider him to be on the spectrum at all. But sensory problems are problems with how the nervous system, including the brain, processes information. I think that, if severe enough, they have a lot to do with the problems of ASDs in general. How do you know it's not just the over or under processing which causes all the autistic traits?

Since sensory processing problems are on a continuum, perhaps there is a cut off point where they do not bother the person enough to shut their nervous systems down, like my nephew. On the other hand, when my son is over-stimulated, he will literally become a rag doll. He did this twice when he was standing up very high on a slide, and if somebody weren't standing right behind him to catch him, he would have tumbled all the way down. Once it was a step ladder type. There was a child behind him being very loud , getting close to him, and trying to get by, and he just let go and let himself fall backward. The time I was with him, we were on a very high inflatable slide. He looked back and realized how high he was (not to mention the noises of the other kids, the bright colors of the slide, etc), then got scared and lost complete use of his arms and legs. For a split second, it looked like he was laying down for a nap, face down, arms up, head turned to the side. It took me a second to realize that he was on an incline and actually going to slide down. A typical child would grab on for dear life if he were scared.

Even though there is an obvious increase in diagnoses out there, all the kids that I have met with the same dx as my son seem like future aspies to me. Hyperlexia, which to me seems like the biggest indicator, because typical 3 yr olds I guess may be TAUGHT how to read, but they can't teach themselves, wierd obsessions (a few of my son's were: books and numbers before the age of 1, numbers, mannequins, sumo wrestlers by the age of 2, numbers, sumo wrestlers, and dinosaurs at 3), lining up toys instead of playing with them, staring at hands or toys from the corner of his eye while moving head back and forth for long periods of time, slow to respond or unable to respond to open-ended questions, low sensitivity to pain, the list goes on and on and on. All the moms of these kids claim to have noticed similar things.

I don't feel like any of the 3 yr olds I've met were misdiagnosed at all. And one of them that I met has made so many improvements since his dx, that I didn't even know he was one of the sp needs kids in the class til the mom told me. But again, he taught himself to read before he turned 3, he lined up toys, did not interact with other kids his age pre-dx, but will say Hi in a very loud and friendly voice now (which is why I never would've guessed). But after finding out, we went on a playdate and I saw him interact with the kids at the park. I did notice him following them around a lot and saying things that the other kids didn't seem to pay that much attention to.

I think plenty of aspies can go one to lead very happy and productive lives, and I think he and my son are two of them. But I don't think they were misdiagnosed at all. I think doctors, atleast the developmental pediatricians, are getting smarter and parents are becoming more aware. I think the early intervention these kids received has made a world of difference for them. I am certain that my son would still be reading every book containing or about numbers, looking at his fingers and calling them sumo, drawing pages and pages of circles and calling them sumo, finding sumo in bowling pins, bottle tops, or pretty much anything in a row or with a face, running only when he's at the malls while trying to stare at and copy the poses of every single mannequin he can find, and then becoming so under aroused on the way home that he would refuse to even walk from the car to the front door. So I don't want to discourage anyone with even a suspicion of something to try and seek help. If they only suspect toe-walking and seek out the videos online, they may find that their kids do not look like the rest of the videos, or they may learn something about autism that they had no idea about before, which may help when they run into our kids in the future.

I totally agree with you that it would be a horrible thing if it were used as a catchall dx like ADHD. My aspie husband was actually dx'd relatively recently with ADD before anyone suspected Aspergers. That can be counterproductive. But as far as intervention for kids under 3, I think it is very important to get in there early. Sensory or not, regional center will not pick these kids up unless they have delays in more than one area. According to the criteria they use, at least in our area, they seem to be pretty dead-on correct.

I know this is an old thread, but since it is indexed with many other topics that new parents may find useful (that's how I found it), I thought it relevant to mention a point I haven't seen posted yet (apologies if I missed it). My son was diagnosed with SPD before he was diagnosed with AS, and toe-walking was one of the symptoms his OTs attributed to SPD. Apparently there are a high percentage of Aspies who have SPD, but the converse is not true: you can have SPD and not AS. The seemingly NT kids who toe-walk may or may not have SPD, but even if they do, sensory issues are commonly associated with, but don't automatically point to autism.

Boo has toe-walked since he started walking, and he's 14 now >.>

My son never toe-walked, hand-flapped, etc.

I toe walk and once in a while my son does too. I only catch myself doing it a few times a day and it's not obvious to anyone else (my heel is only about an inch off the floor). The earlier post about tight tendons doesn't apply to me either, I'm double jointed. When my son does it it's accompanied by hand flapping and is like a little happy dance for no particular reason.

My daughter stopped toe-walking as soon as we bought her first pair of shoes (at 1 year) and has always been particularly good at not looking like a baby learning to walk. However, she's now 5yrs old and I've noticed recently that's she's developing a kind of bouncy walk (a bit like her Dad). She's long limbed, the height of an average 7yr old and she's muscular, not skinny, but I would describe her walk as 'gangly'. She's looks strangely out of step with the other kids in her line, as they walk into class.

my 4.5 year old daughter has classic autism and definately is a toe walker. We do some stretches and exercises with her daily, her range of motion is monitored by a physiotherapist. So far her range of motions fine. If it starts to deteriorate they will put her in leg braces because you damage your achilles tendon with chronic toe-walking.

Interestingly, I was a chronic toe-walker up till I was 5 or 6, then I just started walking flat footed more and more when I started school, but I still toe walk when I'm running or really excited or have to go to the bathroom, or if I'm walking barefoot on uneven surfaces (rocks, gravel, sand etc.) The arch of my feet are extremely hypersensitive. My achilles tendons are now very tight and short so I wear heal supports which help alot. I NT but I have alot of AS traits, I'm sure if I was going to school now, I'd be an aspie, or at least have some sort of sensory processing disorder.

i toe-walk when i'm stressed.
i have learned to walk 'normally' (although it's still quite stiff), but it takes concentration and energy to keep it up, if i'm in a stressful situation, i can't spare the energy to keep my walk normal and start walking on my toes.
although, that is not the only change; for me, my entire posture changes under such stress; i stick my neck out front, arch my back, bend my arms in front of me... basically, i take on the posture of a chimpansee...

I am NT and used to toe-walk due to being tactile defensive. My aspie son never toe-walked.

My son has never toe walked. However, there is a girl in his class, who doesn't seem on the spectrum in anyway, and I have never not seen her walk on anything but her toes. I was room Mom when she moved here two years ago and everytime I came in she toe walked everywhere. Her Mom parks around the corner from the school and she walks to her car, we are often behind her walking home and she toes walks. I have never seen her heels touch the ground even for a moment. She doesn't seem to have a physical disability that makes it necessary, but it is very odd.