Raised by Aspergers parent

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Tarantella64, I think I know what you are getting at. I need to say something on here. The very fact that we're trying to defend our positions and our selves is what may be causing our problems. The thing is Tarantella and others came crying to us for help. Are you guys just going to dismiss her as if she is nothing. This is what we're doing. I suspect it is some kind of desire for revenge on the unconscious on our part. I believe we need to start doing some major forgiving.

Throughout our lives it is true we have been treated like pieces of garbage. But, are we not doing the exact same thing we accuse some NTs of doing? We say they're dismissive of our needs but are we not being dismissive of theirs? My opinion, is we need to set our own BS and problems aside and help this woman out.

Is it not possible that some of us could be hurting our respective spouses and may not realize it? How do we really know what the truth is about anything? I want to seek the truth as well. The thing is not everything we believe is true is actually true. Tarantella64, I have been doing somewhat of what you said. I have read articles and I have asked questions of NTs that are out there.

It turns out I have been wrong many times and I insulted people for no reason. I owe alot of people some apologies. Tarantella64, if I have said anything that has been rude to you I apologize to you as well.

You are so right DW a Mom, sometimes aspies do change as they get older because things change as you get older. People expect more out of you so it will seem like the aspie is getting worse and worse when really the world is changing for them because they are older so they withdraw.

I used to be more chatty as a child. I would talk to grown ups and ask them a bunch of questions and say anything to them. Then as I got older I did it less and less because grown ups became my peers and I found out just by reading online how curious questions are turned into judgmental questions by people because it's how they interpret them and I still don't understand why they do this. Also the fact I was getting "none of your business" when I try and have a chit chat so I felt why even bother, and I stopped talking to people. I only talk to people when I know them and feel comfortable around them I sense they won't get mad at me or judge me when I speak or make false assumptions about me or read my intentions wrong. I open up when I am no longer nervous. Now I learn on Babycenter how innocent comments or feedback turns into something else to their minds and it made me even more paranoid to talk to people because what if I say the wrong thing?
Then the other part of me thinks ah screw it, who cares if you offend them, you won't see them again and also the fact who needs friends, they are so much work and exhausting now so who cares what they think.

I also get very hurt when I get misunderstood. When someone has known me for a while I expect them to know so if they got my intentions wrong, I am very hurt by it because I think they should have known I wasn't being rude or insensitive or didn't mean it that way. So what happens, I have a hard time forgiving them and moving on. Things are never the same between us after that. Sure I may feel better if they apologized but the damage is still there. When I do this to my online friends, I never speak to them again because I believe I am not a good friend and they deserve someone better and I don't expect them to take me back because of what I did. I should have known because how long have I known them for? We talked a lot and had been friends for years so I should have known. I am sure others have done the same to me online. they get mad at me and then realize it wasn't my intent but they feel to guilty to unblock me and speak to me again and also the fact I may not forgive them or not want to speak to them again. Even on this forum I have been on here for a while so I expect everyone to know I wouldn't intentionally do this or that on here and then I get very hurt when people think I am trying to start drama or think I am doing something else I am not even doing. Because I have been posting on here for years so old time members, I expect more out of them of what they should know about me. That's just the way I am. I think of them as stupid or whatever if they read my intentions wrong and don't want to have anything to do with them. If they were newbies, I cut them some slack because they don't know me well enough to realize. And I have a hell of an easier time forgiving them and there is no damage between us. Once they get to know me, we're cool.

@huntedman, thanks for the comment

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Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 21 Mar 2011, 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This is a fantastic analogy and I thank you for it. As a new AS parent of the male variety I want to thank all sides for this discussion. Reading it has helped me in ways I didn't even know I needed

I actually think it's a shame you deleted that, even though I know it was strong and reactive.

It made me realize something. Well, maybe. You all tell me.

As our poster suggested, the world seems to expect people to "check in" all the time making sure they are dong things right. But for someone with AS, the attempt to check in tends to fall flat on it's face. People give up trying to explain it to the person with AS, they write them off; so the person with the AS stops asking. So what is left? Sticking to what you know you are successful at, and things you do understand that you are supposed to do: head down, keep moving forward, offend no one, and do. not. fail.

I'm mid-studying and can't talk long, but:

I can totally see the frustration. And you're right, there isn't adequate help, adequate translation.

I was thinking earlier this afternoon about how similar the experiences you describe are to the experiences of cultural minorities anywhere. I'm part of a tiny cultural/religious minority -- almost nonexistent locally -- and many of my friends have been people from small countries.

I think to some extent, yes, in the end, one does come to the point that life is unfair. These friends of mine from places most Americans are completely incurious about -- you know, in many respects they get steamrolled; they learn to have an "American persona", the one for dealing with daily life here. Then they go home, unless they've married an American, in which case, you know, there's usually a little band of expat friends. I lie regularly about various religious events my daughter's involved in because I know that if I spoke straightforwardly, I'd be misunderstood, perhaps negatively. The majority has no real reason to try to understand, and in some ways it's just as well, because in the end, if they tried, would they get it? Mm, probably not.

But yeah, it's exhausting, and living in someone else's land requires a seriously philosophical approach.

Here's what I mean by exhausting, and at the same time, huntedman, it's a suggestion for a workaround:

Suppose you've got a kid, and you want to do right by the kid. You know your way of relating to the world, though groovy for you, may not be at all what the kid needs, and may actually be harmful to him. You want to avoid this. So you go to a place like, say, Babycenter, where you can lurk around and listen to what people do. Eventually you get up the courage to ask questions or comment, and people come flying out of space and attack you for having, in some mysterious way, insulted them. Obviously you're not going to try that too often, but you don't want to give up.

This is where the counsellor comes in. The counsellor is, in a sense, a cultural translator. You go to her, and you say, "Here's what I want to do, and I don't get what these people are saying or why they're freaking when I talk, what do I do."

Then she talks. She may not tell you exactly what you're after right away -- she may be suggesting you modify what you're after in the first place, and she may be taking a way that looks aimless and roundabout to you. So ask questions; frustration is allowed. For a while the focus may wind up being on handling frustration. (Again.) But eventually you'll have a better understanding of your child's world and how to give your child what he needs, or find others who can do that if it's just not something that'll ever be you.

That's seriously exhausting and frustrating work. It's also scary work, because essentially you're relying on this person to be your guide in a foreign world, and hoping she's not steering you wrong. But it's also very good work. My guess is that a good counsellor will also point you in the direction of people who are more willing than most to try to meet you partway -- or who at least have goodwill towards you, even if they haven't the imagination to meet you partway.

In the end, the fact that you're so self-evidently trying is what will be communicated to your children, your spouse. And that goes a tremendous way, for the same reasons that people abroad still really appreciate the effort to speak their language, even if they already speak English well and their English is better than your whatever. The demonstration of caring and goodwill is really important. In the end, when you do this sort of thing, I'm guessing that your best translators will be your children, just as first-generation children wind up being the bridge between their parents and the country they live in.

Ack, gotta run. But maybe I do get the frustration.

Oh -- DW, it was really interesting: partway through your post, I thought, "This woman isn't AS." I hadn't read your tagline, and didn't know your story. Your writing is qualitatively different, though, from others' on this thread, and to me that's very interesting.

There, you see, that's a thing I had misread then! Thank you for clarifying it for me.


I want to answer to that last sentence. It's not "the wound of being misunderstood" in itself, it's the fact that it is part of our "culture", for lack of a better word, that making sure we understand each other perfectly before we respond is seen as politeness. Courtesy, respect . I know this might not have a translation in NT language, but when I ask for clarification on your every word or so it seems, I am actually showing you respect , proving that I in no way intend to twist your words or misunderstand you, so you won't feel diminished or attacked. It does seem like a cultural difference, since NTs tend to find it apparently bothersome and complicated, it's a sort of japanese bow.


I read it like a cultural difference And the teenager reference was a bit offensive but I'll let that go for now. We feel insulted when someone answers us before understanding what the heck we are talking about, and you guys feel like we're being childish for wanting communication to be constructive. What I wonder is how you guys manage to get through to one another if everyone is just firmly hanging on to their own train of thought for fear of anyone changing their mind
edit: you are not going to believe me, but I wrote this before seeing your post just before mine...that's a tad disconcerting that we were on the same track :p

Funny, I'm always thinking that she cannot be NT

I actually understand those concepts, and I can sense the grudge she holds against her father, and I really don't want to dismiss that. Her opinion is not an objective fact, but it is her opinion and she believes in it. Maybe you're right and I shouldn't engage in a political battle over something so trivial as one person equating autism with impairement in the ability to parent lovingly. I actually enjoy the discussion, though, it feels like exchanging philosophical views with an Eskimo or something. Dude I need to get out more and leave people alone. You may be right.

The reason I deleted it was because I was wrong. I was angry when I wrote it and I do have rage issues. I should not have been a jerk back. I should have been the better man. I had the high ground until I started getting angry. I am trying to forgive people for their trespass. Jesus said when he was on the cross being crucified "Forgive them for they know not what they do" The population spat on him, they whipped him, they beat him, and they put crowned thorns on him. They nailed him to the cross. Jesus forgave them all. He could have smited them all but yet he did not. If Jesus can do this they why can't I?

If we can do what's in Matthew 5:44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" I think we would be ok.

Tarantella64, I am sorry. Will you forgive me?

I can concur with this 100%. I am trying to follow Jesus Christ's Golden rule which is Do unto others as you would have them do onto you. The thing is I would want to make sure I receive accurate information when others talk to me or I ask questions. I try to make sure others have as much accurate information as possible. I am trying to be respectful as well and considerate towards you.

I don't think you were wrong for how you acted. You are right that people do get upset when we try and understand things. Maybe that has been your experience. But if you think you were wrong, it's good you admitted it and apologized and correcting it by removing what you wrote.


@tarentella I am impressed how rational you have acted despite some angry responses you have gotten but you were able to stay calm and not act all hostile back. I also think the reason why you jumped to an assumption fast is because of your experience with your dad correct?


Well I see huntedman has deleted his reply too.

I honestly don't know what I am; sometimes I feel like I must be my own unique version of an alien. I'm more or less comfortable everywhere but at home nowhere. I get along with people but am never close to people. By and large they say nice things about me and to me, but if someone is passing out party invitations, I'm almost never on the list. I guess I somehow make this choice myself; we all craft our worlds in many ways, but I'm not sure why. I do think differently than most people, either NT or AS; I can't entirely relate to either, but I often seem to be able to read and understand most of both bents without them even having to finish sentences at times. There are clear differences between the way I think and the way my husband and son do, but I'm not entirely like the NT's I work with, either. In my career work I alternate between brilliant (shifting through tax code, but only when I'm "inspired") and hopeless (being focused and efficient, and keeping myself inspired through an 8 hour day); my personality seems to do the same. Sorry if that sounds melancholy; I'm in a bit of a mood today. But, I'm glad if you find my writing interesting and I am glad if I ever do help bridge the divides. Maybe when one spends enough time explaining the world to their child and spouse, and their spouse and their child to world, you learn a thing or two

This is being an immensely enlightening conversation for me, and I want to thank you guys for it.

First things first, though:

cubedemon, as far as I'm concerned you've got nothing to apologize for. I wasn't at any point offended. You were angry. People do make each other angry. If it's not malicious, though, and it gets resolved, then, you know, fine.

Several years ago -- back in the dawn of the Web -- there was a writer who wrote a piece in the NYer about how horrible & nasty & flameridden the Web was, and his whole inclination seemed to be that it shouldn't be allowed to go on like that. I wrote to him and said, Are you kidding? This is a totally massive blessing. Look, if we disagree, we can duke it out in words. No blood. And in general we come to some kind of detente, if not understanding. How is that not a good thing? It turned out, once again, to be a cultural difference at work -- he came from the midwest, where conflict is seldom open, and I came from the East Coast, where argument's a form of sport.

As for why the world expects people to check in...it's not so much that there's some giant checklist in the sky as that it's what people generally do. The reason they do is that, as dumb as people can be, there's often a lot of wisdom in norms and connections. We worry -- in the pit of our stomachs -- if we've strayed far from norms, usually, or find ourselves alone, and there's good reason why: maybe there's danger out there. Often there really is. The friendships formed in all that checking-in to do with major parts of life -- work, family -- also tend to be emotionally strong and last for years or decades.

**

ediself, I'm hearing my father's phrases in what you write. All this stuff about clarifications...yes, he's always done that. I find it slightly unnerving, because he's so precise about it that I wonder what he's leading up to; it seems prosecutorial. He'll say no, he's just trying to understand, but with that much buildup I'm still waiting for something dramatic to happen. And it never does. The funny thing is I betcha that, even after all that, he's still off the mark. And here all this time I've assumed that all that care meant he was carrying around some incredible depth and wisdom about whatever it was I'd said. But no; he just has to do all that interrogation & careful definition to get where a friend & I would be within 2-3 back/forths, and that's what feels polite to him. Unfortunately, it also lead to a serious sense of betrayal: Here I was, assuming he'd understood me very well because of how much care he'd taken in interrogating things I'd said -- but then he'd behave in ways that showed almost no understanding, which lead to real wtf moments. I felt seriously jerked around.

You ask how most of us understand each other? Here's the thing: Most of the time we don't. And most of the time it doesn't matter. There's only so many ways things are likely to go, and for most of life you could substitute total gibberish for the words, so long as the tone was right. There's a whole theatre of people talking past each other, lots of plays, some of them very acute. My other family members? You know, they don't get me. I probably don't get them, either. Doesn't matter, usually. The right noises get made, the right rituals observed, occasionally there's a flash of understanding, love is demonstrated. It's fine. Past adolescence, we basically forgive each other in advance for the lack of understanding, unless something really egregious happens, or there's a falldown on some important social ritual. There are things we disagree seriously on, and after a while we just don't go there much, esp. if any of the people involved don't enjoy debate. No point to it.

@League_Girl -- if people are upset, I figure there's a reason. That's always been true, but there was something I read in a parenting book (!) several years ago -- this guy was an older father, was on his second family, and he said he didn't react immediately anymore when his kids were throwing fits, because his first question had become, "What am I interrupting?" I thought that was really wise. It's hard sometimes not to react and shut down tantrums if only because they can be so freaking annoying, but it's true: the kid is in the middle of something. Wait, ask a question, see what it's about first. Don't just react. Not only does it work, but you wind up knowing your child a lot better. And the magic is that as the kids get older and more self-aware, they also feel sillier throwing these huge tantrums, and are more inclined to work out the anger in a more social, thoughtful way -- they get surprisingly responsible about it.

I'm not saying, btw, that you're tantrum-throwing kids; I'm just saying that when people are upset, it means something's going on, something with a particular quality. I don't always have time or energy to deal with it on the spot when it happens in real life, but I come here voluntarily.

Almost forgot: League_Girl, you asked this:

"I also think the reason why you jumped to an assumption fast is because of your experience with your dad correct? "

There's a lot of assumptions flying around at this point -- which one were you thinking of? Feel free to PM me if you'd rather talk privately.

Well, firstly, I can tell you from experience that having NT parents when you are not NT is just as bad as the other way around. There is no connection of empathy with the parents because they don't naturally understand how your mind works, and they do a lot of unintended damage by operating on the assumption that you will react the way an NT will react. The irritating part, is they don't seem to learn, and will repeatedly do the same behaviour and watch you get very very distressed over and over again, and then yell at you because that's not how a "normal" person would feel. The problem with AS parenting is not an intrinsic deficit, it's that it doesn't match with having an NT child. I would have done much better with AS parents. So the first thing to understand is that what AS parents do is not wrong, it is just different. That difference can cause pain for NT children, and AS parents need to be careful to understand their NT children, and act appropriately, but that does not mean the way they are doing things is necessarily inferior.

So 1) Do not assume that their way is worse. Explain why it might hurt an NT child and even how it hurt you, but don't tell them it is bad.

The second thing is don't blame everything they do wrong on AS. Sometimes people are s**t parents. It isn't necessarily an AS thing. What was being said there about parents being selfish was just that...parents being selfish. It's wrong and hurtful, but it isn't anything to do with AS.

So 2) Don't blame everything that they do wrong on AS

The third thing is don't suggest that they have less right to be an equal parent because they have AS, that they need help or that they should see a professional. Whether you think that or not, you are only going to burn the bridge to helping them if you say that. The reaction of any person who got told that would be to stick more firmly to their own belief systems. Challenge their behaviour, never them. You will get much much further doing this than you ever will saying "go get help". That doesn' t mean you shouldn't tell them what help is available, if you happen to know, but don't say that they must go for it, you will just burn bridges.

So 3) Challenge behaviour not people

And finally, if you "give up" on being nice to someone, you give up on having any kind of relationship with them where they might respect you enough to take on board what you have to say. So if you give up, you give up ANY chance of it working even if your chances were slim before. You don't have any authority over them, or capacity to force them to do anything. You only have persuasion, and you will get a lot further with that anyway.

Even if you can't get through to one person at all, others will read what you have to say and give you more respect and authority for having been supportive rather than aggressive, so the net benefit you are able to offer will be much greater.

So 4) Keep calm and carry on

These are hard to stick to (and I rarely stick to them myself when I am responding to AS/NT parents because parenting is such a charged area) but if you actually want to have influence, it's worth it.