Aspie Mom desperate for advice from other Aspie parents

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Ha ha! My internet is working again!

So, yeah, sorry about not finishing up my post but my internet decided to die on me. At least it gave me the chance to finish up my finals without distraction.

Anyways, I'm working on the post, so I'll post it as soon as I finish it up. Did you get a chance to review the other post that I suggested, and if so did it seem to help?

OK, well sorry for the delay, but I promised to finish up, and I intend to do so, even if I am a bit late. My internet has been failing at me all week, but huzzah it is back up.

So, where I left off:

2. Your daughter seems to be reactionary rather then rational.

What I mean by this is that when confronted with something, your daughter reacts to what is happening rather than thinking about what could be happening. So when you tell her, "Do XYZ", she isn't thinking about why she should do it, or what the consequences are, or what the stakes are, or anything like that. All she is thinking about is what she is feeling at that exact moment which is, "I don't want to". And the problem is that until you actually threaten her, it isn't what is happening. Until you ground her, it isn't factoring into her thought process because it hasn't happened yet.

This is for a couple reasons. Primarily whenever you get into an argument, the stress level goes up, and that impedes mental functioning. For example:

Parent: I demand XYZ!
Child: O crap, um.... um.... uh.... better stall and hope the problem goes away
Parent: Do it now!
Child: Um... uhh.... Stall!
Parent: WHY HAVEN'T YOU DONE IT YET!
Child: *panicing*
Parent: THATS IT! YOUR GROUNDED!
Child: NOOOO!

I might be slightly over dramatic here, but the idea stands. Making demands and threatening tends to increase stress and activate the flight/fight response. And multiple studies have shown that people have a hard time thinking rationally when stressed out. So, instead of a rational response you just get the flight response (stalling, running away, etc.) And when that doesn't work and she gets in trouble, you get the fight response (meltdowns).

So, how do you deal with this?

Well, there are multiple methods. For starters, if you want something from your daughter, sit her down before hand and talk with her. What does she think of the request, what is her opinion on it, etc? This is really just an extension of point 1, but it is very important. The fact is that if you want your daughter to do something, she has to understand the reasoning behind it.

When you are there, standing over her shoulder and threatening her, she isn't going to be in the calm and rational mind set. As such, trying to convince her to do something is going to be a difficult task. If you took the time to read this post:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt154304.html
Then you will understand what I am talking about. I mentioned that a person (any person, autistic or not) isn't going to be rational once a certain level of emotion kicks in. And if you want rational (which you do) then you have to talk about the problem during a calm time.

To put this into practice: Talk with her about the importance of personal ownership, but not while you are arguing about who gets to borrow what. Wait till you are both calm and reasonable, and have the discussion over ice cream or something else where you can have a nice, non arguing, discussion. Talk about what is hers is hers, what is her sister's is her sister's, and what is yours is yours. You can encourage sharing, and recommend it as a matter of respect, but ultimately if the person decides not to share, then that is their choice, and you have to respect that. So in other words, if she wants her sister's coat, she has to ask for it. And if permission is not given, then she can't use it. Explain to her why this is the way things work, how it effects her, and so forth. Talk about how she would feel if her sister took something of hers, and so forth. Basically, talk with her and get her to understand why she has to respect personal property rights. Then, when she is in the process of stealing her sister's things, you can remind her of what you already talked about, instead of trying to convince her in the middle of the situation.

Also, talk about how you could best handle this situation the next time it comes up. For example, say your daughter wants to 'borrow' something without permission. Agree what you should do in that situation. Obviously your daughter shouldn't get to take something when she is told not to, but what happens when she really wants to 'borrow' something? What should your daughter do in that situation? What alternatives are available to her. And what happens to her if she 'borrows' something without asking? How can she make amends? Basically, talk it over.

Likewise, with the 'get off the computer and shower' problem. Do the exact same thing. Talk about why the shower is important, what purpose it serves, why you do it, and so forth. And also talk about how you think you should handle the situation next time she needs to take a shower. Would she prefer a 5 minute warning? Would she like to take the shower in the morning instead? Would it be better to take a shower after homework, but before computer time? Taking a shower at time XYZ may be what you want to have happen, but that doesn't mean that it is the only way to do it. What would she like to do to make the showering experience better? When it is time to take a shower, and she is doing something else, what is the best way to make a transition?

So, after you have talked it over, how do you apply this? What happens if the same problem (or similar problem) occurs again? As I have said before, trying to have the conversation about what is appropriate during the problem isn't always going to work. But you can remind your child what they agreed to earlier, when they were calm enough to think it through. For example, lets look at the coat dilemma that you posted:

So, what went wrong here?

Well, the good news is that you tried to talk the problem over with your daughter first. Which was a great idea. But the problem is that you waited until the problem happened before you had the conversation. Basically, your daughter wanted the coat, and when you tried to talk her out of it, her mind immediately said, "O no, she is trying to take the coat away from me! Quick, defensive belligerence mode!" Basically, she felt as though she was under attack as you were trying to talk her out of something she had already decided on. This triggered the fight/flight response, which lead to the belligerence, which lead to your arguments falling on deaf ears. Further threatening, counting, yelling, and arguing only serves to make her feel more pressured which only further entrenches the mindset of, "I am under attack, I have to defend myself".

So what to do about it during the problem?
The key here is to change the mindset your daughter is in. If you can do that, you can get her out of the defensive belligerence mode, and into a more rational mode. And this is where the prior conversation comes in. You see, when you try telling your daughter what to do, she sees it as an attack from somebody who is just trying to control her. But when it is herself telling her what to do, it is harder to ignore it. So the next time you get into this situation, try this:

"She wanted to borrow her sister's coat, but her sister wanted to wear it. I asked her nicely to take it off and offered her my own coat which is similar. She went into a tirade about how her sister was wearing a sweater and didn't need a coat and how she had it on first." At this point, you acknowledge her sentiments, and then ask her, "Do you recall what we discussed about personal property, and respecting other people's possessions?"

And then wait patiently for her response. The key here is to simply remain calm, and keep waiting until you get a response to that question. You may have to ask her to stop her music, put things down, and repeat the question a couple times. But just wait for a response. She probably won't want to admit it, but eventually, if you stare at her and wait for a response long enough, she will admit to remembering the conversation. Then you can say, "And do you remember when we discussed that a person shouldn't borrow something without permission, even if they feel as though they 'deserve' it, or regardless of how much they want it." And when your daughter recalls that, you can then ask her, "So, remembering that, do you still think you should get to wear your sister's coat?"

It would also help if you make an appeal to your daughter's sense of avoiding problems. For example, if she is being evasive, or non respondent, then get her attention and say something like this, "I understand that you want the coat. And I understand that you feel as though you should have the coat. You got it first, your sister doesn't need it, and I understand your point of view. But a person's property is a person's property. We have talked about this, and while you don't want to admit it, you know you would feel differently if the situation was reversed and your sister wanted to take your things without permission. Now you have 2 choices here. You can either give your sister her coat back, get a new one, and we can have a fine day. Or you can choose to ignore what you know to be right, refuse to give the coat back, and then I have to punish you. Do you want to be punished? Do you want to be grounded? I don't want to do it, and you don't want it either, and I am trying to give you an alternative here so that you don't have to be punished, but the decision is yours to make. So, tell me, what do you choose to do?"

This is somewhat similar to the previous (poorly working) method, in that you do have to threaten your daughter a bit. But ultimately it puts you in the position of saying, 'I understand your view, but you know that isn't going to work. And I don't want to punish you, so please make the appropriate choice so I don't have to. I really don't want to go through with this, but if you choose to bring it on yourself, then you only have yourself to blame for making the choice even after ample warning'. As opposed to the current method which is, "DO WHAT I SAID BECAUSE I SAID SO!" or "I DONT CARE IF YOU WANT TO WEAR IT! I SAID NO!" or "THATS IT! YOUR GROUNDED!" Notice that one is supportive and phrases the situation as a choice your daughter needs to make. The other is an angry, nagging, and uncaring phrasing.

Odds are, you will have more luck convincing her with this method.

Now, I know what you are thinking to yourself (I happen to be telepathic). You are thinking, 'this will never work, there is no way my daughter will be that rational, I have tried before and it doesn't work'. And I understand that. But you have to realize that if you only wait until the problem occurs to have the conversation, then you are always waiting until emotions are running high before you try rationalizing. If you try to talk when you are both calm, then you will find much greater success.

You also mention that you have tried explaining things to your daughter before with no success. I have to wonder how much of that was just an hour long lecture vs. a conversation. If all you do is tell your child why she MUST do something, and then provide reasons, then you aren't talking with her, you are simply talking at her. And nobody really listens when they are being talked at. If you want her to listen, then you have to listen to her first. Why does she disagree with you? Why does she act the way that she does? Talk with her and find out what is going on inside her head, and what her reasoning is. I understand that she is only 11, and thus unlikely to be completely reasonable. But her reasoning is indeed sound to her, and to completely discount her opinions and reasoning because you disagree with her isn't going to help you communicate with her. The fact is that you have no right nor reason to expect her to listen to you if you aren't willing to listen to her first.

Also, I don't think your daughter is happy with the way things are currently working either. Do you think she enjoys being yelled at, threatened, and nagged constantly? I am willing to bet that if you sit her down and say something like, "Look, this isn't working between us. I don't like yelling, you don't like getting yelled at, neither one of us is happy, and it is turning the house into a war zone. How about we call a truce and find a better way to handle these disagreements," then she will likely be very interested in coming to an agreement.




3. You are trying to implement a simple fix and it isn't working.
Part of the problem here is that you are looking for a simple way to end the problem. I.E. you tell your daughter to get off the computer and go take a shower. When that fails, you wait 5 minutes, and try again. When that fails, you wait 5 minutes and try again. And when that fails, you think to yourself, 'Well this nice stuff isn't working. I guess I have to go with what does work'. And thats where you get into the yelling, threatening, and so forth. The problem here is you are thinking that there are only 2 possible options:
1. Be nice, give warnings, and be patient (isn't working)
2. Be direct, threatening and yelling (works in the moment, but causes a lot of problems in the long run)

And you are sitting here conflicted that neither of these options is working for you. What you need to realize is that there is more then just the 2 options. There is the 3rd (better option) is to take the time and do as I suggested above. Make time in your day to discuss the problems that come up. Find out how you can handle them better, and then implement the solutions. If you get into a confrontation, don't just jump to angry yelling and threats. Instead, take the time to listen to her, and then let her know that you are listening. Simply saying something like, 'I understand that you feel this way because of ..., but I still think you should do it the other way because of ...' can let your daughter know that even if you don't agree with her, at least you are listening to her.

Yes, it will take a bit longer. And yes you will have to put more effort into listening and talking to your daughter rather then just telling her what to do. But I guarantee you that you will see better results.




4. You do need to cut the child some slack on the unimportant stuff.
For example, she wants to take a combo bath/shower. I am the same way. I like to start off with a nice relaxing warm bath, and then rinse myself off with the shower before I get out. This may cost an extra 20 dollars per month in gas to heat the extra water, but just let her do it. Everybody gets to be a little bit inefficient with resources for personal reasons. For example, I like to keep my thermostat at 77 degrees in the winter, even though it costs me extra because it makes me feel more comfortable. You probably don't drive as gently as you possibly could, and thus cost yourself a few extra bucks worth of gasoline. You probably bought something that was brand named instead of the cheep knock off brand because you wanted the extra features. Its just part of life. Everybody wastes money doing things which make them feel better. Why should your child not get the ability to do the same?

Likewise, with the braces, thats pretty much a lost cause. I don't know if you wore braces, but you cannot clean them properly. I tried, I failed, I doubt it can be done successfully. You best bet is to simply get a soft toothbrush with the sensitivity reducing toothpaste (I recommend Crest Pro-Health), and hopefully that will keep the pain to a minimum. And some mouthwash to deal with the areas that you can't clean could help a bit. But expecting her to have a clean, flossed, and healthy mouth is not a practical expectation. Just encourage her to do her best, and hopefully you'll get lucky and she will have less then a dozen cavities when the braces come off.

Likewise, let your child chose when she should do simple chores. Asking her to empty the dishwasher, or put the clothes away, or something similar is fine. But let her do it at a time she thinks would best suit her. As long as it gets done by the end of the day, then why does it matter when it happens? So when she asks, 'Why now?' I have to agree with her. She might be in the middle of something. Just give her a break and let her take care of the chores when it is convenient for her.

The fact is that you are the one causing the majority of the problems by harassing your child on a continual basis. You say that punishments and rewards aren't working. Yet you keep harassing her and making both of yourselves miserable why? You have to be willing to take a step back and say, "Is this really worth it?" I know you may want her to apply deodorant, but a simple checklist/reminder for the morning will probably be just as effective as severe threats and punishments, yet cause a lot less stress and tension in the household. Yes, your daughter may be immature, but that is because she is a child. Making her life miserable for being a child isn't going to change anything.


5. And lastly, you need to focus on communicating with your child, rather then telling them what to do.
As I am writing this, I realize that I am re-iterating the same point over and over, but just doing so in different ways. And I am fine with this as it is important to get this across. The most upsetting thing I found in your post was this:



This is very upsetting to me, as it shows that your primary concern isn't teaching her why she should act a certain way, but enforcing it. The idea, "I refuse to let her win", is possibly the most damaging thing to this relationship. I am not suggesting that your child be the one to make the decisions, but to just decide that the child shall never, ever, ever be allowed to win because she is a child completely discounts her views, opinions, and ideas. Why cant she be allowed to reason and provide feedback? Why can't you listen to what she says and reconsider your view? Why can't you compromise with her and let both of you win?

You wonder why your child isn't being rational? It might be because you have never taught her to be rational. You see children learn the art of reasoning, and negotiation by engaging in it. They learn to make a case, support it with evidence, and appeal to another person in order to change their views. If you have decided that your opinion is immutable, and that you shall not consider nor listen to your daughter's words then how is your daughter supposed to learn how to negotiate with you? You say that you don't like when she whines, but what else is she supposed to do? Children only whine if they feel that they are not being listened to. And you clearly don't respect her enough to take her seriously and listen to what she is saying.
And if you aren't going to listen to her and consider the possibility that she might be right, then why should she listen to anything you have to say?

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you want her to listen to you, then listen to her first.

I only skimmed the replies, so somebody may have suggested this already, but have you read or heard about "love and logic" parenting? It is primarily meant for younger children, but I secretly use it on adults all the time, and it is often effective while they are none the wiser.

It's so nice to see tracker's response, I have missed his well thought out explanations.

I have a bit of as tendencies but I am not diagnosed. I do however have a daughter that will be 10 next month with as who is quite like the op's description of her eldest. We used to get into heated exchanges a lot just like you describe, where I was being authoritative and she went into fight or flight very quickly and became verbally and physically aggressive. I think if an outsider nt eavesdropped on our exchanges they would think she was rude and lacked respect. But I have come to realize #1 she is angry a lot of the time-that seems to be her "natural" state and #2 she doesn't put a lot of thought/weight into how she comes across or the words she chooses.

As for item #1- I realized by reacting to her anger I only increased it. If I allowed her angry tone to make me angry, things just spiraled out of control for both of us. So I had to recognize that and try to start responding to her anger calmly (as tracker describes above). That helped decrease the likelihood of her anger increasing or instigating her fight or flight response.

For #2- I stopped "reading" into her tone or being affected by her lack of niceties. She's matter of fact in her speech, doesn't please or thank you (really need to work on that), and somewhat crudely responds or demands things. This is a part of as I believe, not that its an excuse, but she doesn't think about her affect on others. She's very self involved in a way that what she thinks and feels is the whole picture for her. So I had to really work on that not affecting me.

As for your mother-well mothers say annoying things and cast judgment (from my own experience with my own mother). You have to work on not letting that affect you either-easier said than done.

This post is probably not near as insightful or helpful as the others but know that your daughters actions are pretty common for a preteen with as, and your reactions are understandable. While you co-parent with your mom, you need to have her respect and backup as any co-parent should have. A united front so to speak.