"25 Manners Every Kid Should Know By Age 9"
13 May 2011, 1:31 pm
As for number one, I've never actually met anyone who was genuinely 'punished' for not showing common sense, just reprimanded or given a mild consequence, like being grounded or something, and told to think before they act next time.
Number two... Common sense is mostly innate to humans, as it has its origins in the survival instinct. Common sense is a milder, every-day version of that survival instinct, I guess you could say. If you don't have enough of it, well, that's why there are Darwin Awards. It also has a lot to do with how you were raised, I think. Parents who explain to their kids why something is a bad idea (if the kid hasn't already figured it out though basic logic) help to build a database of 'bad ideas' to be avoided in the future.
There are people who expand the usage of common sense outside of this area. In the past, it was promoted that it was common sense that women were only emotional creatures. Maybe a better and more accurate term would be sound judgement. What do you think? Personally, I would go for that.
By the very fact 2ukenkerl is asking these questions shows that he must have sound judgement on these safety and dangerous things. More than likely he does use sound judgement. My opinion though is before jump to conclusions on anything we need to make sure we have the correct context and the correct facts. EVen if we don't know these things there is a whole wealth of research on the internet in which we can obtain our answers and the correct context. Am I correct?
EXACTLY! That is all I am saying. The idea of saying "excuse me" if you bump into someone is fine. But I have had cases where people even seem to seek me out. I mean if you are standing in an isle, that has plenty of space, people should avoid hitting you. MAN, I have seen SO many going full speed AHEAD while they are looking some other way. And people may blow their nose right in front of me, etc... Frankly, if they say excuse me, it is like a robber stealing $10,000 from me, giving me $10, and expecting me to say thankyou and having me owe them something.
Just one of my pet peeves.
13 May 2011, 2:41 pm
Let's say common sense is a correct and proper thing to have.
1. Why are those who supposedly do not have it are punished?
2. If one does not have it how is one supposed to gain it?
3. Why are those who supposedly have it want to try to act superior to those who don't? I have been told I lack common sense myself. When someone tells me that it makes me very angry. The reason being is it tells me nothing. It does not tell me how to alter my behavior or point me in the right direction. This is one thing that get me angry with parents in general.
Here is another thing. I ask a question of person x and person x says I am so and so age I should know. Well I don't know. It's the fact that people think I ought to know that keeps me knowing. One thing I do to work around this is I do research. I look at parenting boards and educational websites. I don't bother asking people because it is useless.
To other aspies: A lot of this stuff is out on the internet. In my opinion just do the research and don't even ask. If someone gives you the lecture of you should know because you're so and so age or you lack common sense then my advice is if you can walk away, shake the dust off of your boots, never talk to them again, and forget them. After that, do the research yourself and try to obtain the correct context yourself.
I'm with you on this. I think the term common sense is very relative. In my experience what one person thinks is "common sense" is not "common" to me at all. It is based on your background and experiences and we all come from different environments. One person may think that how to use a hammer or a screw driver is "common sense" but to someone who has never seen that done, it certainly is not. Also, I don't think its just parents who are failing to expressly teach things that some people assume are common sense, schools fail at it too. We throw a bunch of 5 year olds together in a classroom all of whom may come from different backgroudns and environments and we expect that they know how to treat each other and how to treat the teacher. We expect that they have somehow absorbed the social and emotional understanding to relate to other people. Parents, preschool and early elementary school teachers should all remember that if we want kids to know ANYTHING we must teach it to them. They cannot absorb it by osmosis out of thin air.
That being said, I still wish that little girl could have recognized the trouble me and my son were having as he was having a meltdown in my arms and just left us alone.
13 May 2011, 3:17 pm
I am seeing some patterns not with this thread but all across the internet as well and in real life as well.
I believe orwell says it better than I could. http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm
I believe that phrases like "common sense" is a dying metphor that has been twisted from its original meaning. I believe it originally meant sound judgement and one example is don't stick your hand in a fire or you may be burned badly.
13 May 2011, 4:40 pm
When an adult asks you for a favor, do it without grumbling and with a smile.
I REALLY wish more kids would do this, at least once in a while. I was sitting in the grass at the park the other night trying to calm DS down from a meltdown provoked by another child grabbing him from behind unexpectedly. I had purposefully moved to a quiet spot out of the way of other people. A girl, about 5, comes up to us and starts talking. DS is quite visibly upset and I am holding him in may lap rocking him. I say to the girl in the nicest voice I can muster at the moment "Sweetie, could you please leave us alone right now, we need some space." She looks at me and says "Why should I?" Gritting my teeth I say, trying very hard to maintain composure, "Because I asked you to, now please we REALLY need you to leave us alone." It wouldn't be so bad if kids would just do things once in a while just because an adult asks them politely to do it. It's not "Becasue I said so" its "Because I asked you politely to do something why does everything require an explanation?"
You couldn't tell her "Because he is very upset and I need to calm him down and you talking to us isn't going to help?"
13 May 2011, 4:48 pm
When an adult asks you for a favor, do it without grumbling and with a smile.
I REALLY wish more kids would do this, at least once in a while. I was sitting in the grass at the park the other night trying to calm DS down from a meltdown provoked by another child grabbing him from behind unexpectedly. I had purposefully moved to a quiet spot out of the way of other people. A girl, about 5, comes up to us and starts talking. DS is quite visibly upset and I am holding him in may lap rocking him. I say to the girl in the nicest voice I can muster at the moment "Sweetie, could you please leave us alone right now, we need some space." She looks at me and says "Why should I?" Gritting my teeth I say, trying very hard to maintain composure, "Because I asked you to, now please we REALLY need you to leave us alone." It wouldn't be so bad if kids would just do things once in a while just because an adult asks them politely to do it. It's not "Becasue I said so" its "Because I asked you politely to do something why does everything require an explanation?"
You couldn't tell her "Because he is very upset and I need to calm him down and you talking to us isn't going to help?"
Having just had my son's teeth embedded in my shoulder a moment before, I was a bit unprepared to respond to her. The "Becasue I asked you" kinda jumped to my mouth. I think trying to get a child through a meltdown without hurting himself or anyone else is often mentally much the same as being in that meltdown state yourself. Your mind isn't really working top notch when you are in the thick of it so it's hard to come up with good explanations in the moment.
13 May 2011, 5:04 pm
I do not fully agree with all those manners but if you take them literal, they are bogus. You just have to be careful how you teach them to aspie kids. When you teach them to young children, they take them literal too but they figure out on their own those rules don't apply in all situations but aspie kids will take it like a bible and follow it in stone.
Mom always had to spell everything out to me like I don't have to share all my things. If something is special to me, I don't have to share it. I am sure there are things I knew on my own without having to be told it.
I think you also have to be careful when teaching these rules to little kids because they will also take them literal. You need to tell them the boundaries and when something is okay like when it's okay to interrupt or when it's okay to just hang up on someone or close the door to their face, or when it's okay to say no when someone asks you politely. I think it be more difficult to tell aspie kids this because they are more literal than normal kids and therefore they will have a harder time understanding the boundaries. I remember doing some boo boos as a kid because I was following the etiquette rule and it caused me trouble and mom had to give me the talk about it. She wouldn't punish me, she would just talk to me about it. I remember the time when a five year old boy asked me to pull down his pants at the pizza parlor so I did. He kept asking me to do it and then I got obsessed and couldn't stop so I started doing it to my brothers and other kids. Mom had to teach me I didn't always have to listen to what people tell me to do that is wrong to do so next time someone tells me to pull down their pants, say "No." I was eight and I am sure any eight year old would know that is wrong to do it but I didn't know it at that age. But I do admit I thought it was strange when he asked me to do it because you pull your pants down in the bathroom or in your bedroom but not anywhere else and he kept asking me to do it so I did it. So I did semi knew it was wrong but because he asked me to do it, I assumed it was okay. Today I would not make those mistakes because I am black and white about it. If something isn't okay to do, don't do it. Even if I was asked to do it. I would wonder why are they asking me to do it if they can do it themselves? I do not see the logic there. Why are they asking me to do something for them if they can do it themselves? Is what they are asking me to do wrong and they don't want to get in trouble so they think they can use me so I can get the blame? Do they not want to make themselves look bad so they decide they want me to look bad and them the good guy?
13 May 2011, 7:01 pm
Knowing that you'll be burned by fire is not a matter of judgement; it's a matter of learning. Most people learn it at an early age, but if someone managed to grow to adulthood without every seeing a fire, they couldn't be blamed for not knowing to keep their hands away.
"Common sense" is stuff that people learn so early they assume everyone knows it. And assumptions are a bad idea.
As for the girl who walked up to Bombaloo, she should have been obeying the "don't interrupt" rule, not the "do everything that a adult says" misrule.
14 May 2011, 5:51 am
I agree with this statement.
This list was actually horrifying and kind of disgusting to read. I disagree, with all points made. All of them.
I guess because my parents taught me independence. And taught me that I can say "No".
If they told me to do the laundry and I said No my father wouldn't force me to do it, he would say "I support your decision, I do not agree with it, but I'll always support the decisions you'd make."
I do not agree with this list because it doesn't teach children independence. All they do by following this list is become dependent on people.
14 May 2011, 2:02 pm
Here's the thing.....Agree or disagree, most of these rules (in form or another) are what it takes for strangers to want to get to know or help you. Often once you are known, some of the rules are relaxed.
You may think it's OK to voice all of your negative opinions, unsolicited. And then you may wonder why you are lonely..... It's connected. You may think that someone should ask for help if they need it, so you don't offer when you notice someone struggling. Then you may wonder why no one helps you when you ask.....again, connected. I didn't thank the host because I didn't really have fun....but why do I not receive more invitations.....connected.
Knowing how to manage these "rules" may be totally stupid and ridiculous, but most people will not draw you a diagram about what it takes to be invited or accepted by them. It is likely that most people here are bumping into these issues either themselves or for thier kids, so this probably has to be learned rather than just come naturally. It's totally fine to reject the manners as outdated BUT I think it's important to recognize that there are likely consequences for rejecting them.
Personally, I would rather my kids have the expected skills so they can decide who is too petty to deal with, rather than having it be twice as hard than it has to be for them to find out.
Oh - one more thing that I try to teach, "keep your own side of the street clean, don't worry about the other person's". What that means, is do the right thing regardless of what others do. Being nice when someone else is rude, isn't really that hard. Someone else being rude doesn't give me the OK to be rude.
14 May 2011, 2:41 pm
Napkin on your lap, I think that is an old rule and doesn't need to be followed.
When people ask how you are, they do not want an honest answer. It's just small talk nonsense they are doing and they want to hear the word "Fine" or "good" not your life story about how horrible you are feeling just because you had a disagreement with your teenage son.
Never use fowl language in front of adults? So does that mean they can still use them but not around adults? But hey adults use it too so I am sure they don't find them boring and unpleasant, the ones who uses them of course.
About commenting on people's physical characteristics, so if someone has something on their teeth, I am not to tell them that? I am sure they would be pleased if I told them so they wouldn't walk around looking ridiculous. My mom and my husband have pointed those things out to me and I would wonder why didn't anyone else tell me.
Don't call people mean names, so does that mean behind their backs too or just to their faces? I was taught to never do it to their face or around them. And what do they mean by mean? Mean is a vague word because anything can be viewed as mean. I have said things in the past and people would say that wasn't nice even though to me there was nothing wrong with it because it was the truth.
Thanking people for having you over, what if you invited yourself over?
Knocking on closed doors, that depends on the situation. What if there is no response? What if you are out in public and you knock on the restroom door and there is no answer? You would assume there is no one in there. Knock on someone's bedroom door and no answer, you go right in. Knock on someone's front door, you don't enter nonetheless unless there was an emergency like screaming in there or if the home was on fire.
When having doubts doing something, ask permission first. But when people do do that, they get accused of doing it for validation and want to be told how cool they are. I have seen those accusations at Babycenter. You can't win. I do assume "permission" meant asking about it first to get opinions from others about if it be okay or not and hearing feedback first before you do it.
I do not agree about keeping negative opinions to yourself. So what if I saw a movie and didn't like it, I am not allowed to say that it wasn't good or that it was boring or to say disappointing? I cannot go online and say that? If someone online asks a question, I am not allowed to give out my honest answer if it's negative? Could that be why I would get accused of being rude and mean? Could that be why people at Babycenter have been accused of being bullies because they told an OP what they didn't want to hear? Then again if it's told in a nice way, it's not mean or being a bully. You can still give out an honest negative opinion without being mean.
I do not believe in pretending to like something and I am sure the performers would understand. If you are forced to be there, it's easy to understand. If you didn't like it, you wouldn't be there in the first place. Assemblies are pretty much forced to be there. But plays are optional unless you were forced to be there because of school field trip or the assembly put it on or your family made you be there.
About rule 15, I think if someone is a jerk or a bully, I don't think they deserve respect and meanness comes back to them. But I agree with the rule 90% and I don't think it matters if someone was ignorant so they had to ask a ignorant question. We are there to teach them and educate them without making fun of them. It doesn't matter if we think someone was being judgmental because they asked a question, it should indicate they are wanting to learn and are trying to understand so making fun of them won't teach them anything. It will only teach them to not ask questions or people will take them the wrong way. So therefore they have a lesser chance of learning and will never understand because they'd be so afraid to ask.
Last edited by League_Girl on 14 May 2011, 3:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
14 May 2011, 2:52 pm
I agree with this statement.
This list was actually horrifying and kind of disgusting to read. I disagree, with all points made. All of them.
I guess because my parents taught me independence. And taught me that I can say "No".
If they told me to do the laundry and I said No my father wouldn't force me to do it, he would say "I support your decision, I do not agree with it, but I'll always support the decisions you'd make."
I do not agree with this list because it doesn't teach children independence. All they do by following this list is become dependent on people.
Pandora_box, I do not understand your assertion here. How does following this list make someone dependent on people?
Kailuamom, I have some problems.
1. It seems to me that the rules of our society are never open to discussion, debate, or clarification. You said "Knowing how to manage these "rules" may be totally stupid and ridiculous, but most people will not draw you a diagram about what it takes to be invited or accepted by them. " I believe this illustrates what I say here. My question is why aren't these things open to discussion, debate, or clarification? What is mainstream society afraid of? Why don't people in mainstream society want to dicuss their beliefs whatsoever?
2. People try to treat rules as though they are innate. In my opinion, I believe they need to be rotely taught and should be open to discussion, debate, or clarification. Why do some people try to treat these rules as though they're innate? Why do some people make all of these assumptions like I am x age I should know y. How do they derive these things?
Another question I ask of you Kailuamom is can mainstream society ever be wrong in it's beliefs, assumptions, and ideas? If society is always correct then why is our economy in the toliet? Why are people applying for jobs over and over again and achieving no result? If the current corporate and employment model is the epitome of perfection then why isn't this model open for any kind of scrutiny and questioning at all?
At this site this man svrcrow asked a whole bunch of questions and questioned the current corporate and the way things are done. http://www.enotalone.com/forum/showthre ... 21efcee517
I think the man has asked some valid questions. In my opinion, I think this man's statements and questions merit some responses and answers.
14 May 2011, 3:12 pm
I disagree with this one. I could accidently drop food on my lap. Think of murphy's law. Anything that can go wrong will eventually go wrong. I believe we should have the Napkin.
You're right league_girl. They have no real concern for your state of being whatsoever. My question is why the phoniness?
I had this question as well. Why can adults use foul language around them?
If could be a medical condition that is life threatening but treatable.
Yes, mean is a very subjective term. It is open to your interpretation.
I think I may be able to answer this one. You should probably thank them for allowing you in and hosting you.
You're right.
In addition to this, they tell you that you are x age you should know.
What if the person wants the negative opinion and asks for it? If everyone is keeping their negative opinions to themselves then it is useless to ask for opinions is it not?
I do not like that as well.
I 100% agree with what you said here. Honestly, a person has to stand up to a bully. If a person does not stand up the bully will keep bullying. IMHO, the mantra that the school system has with dealing with bullies is a bunch of BS.
14 May 2011, 4:34 pm
Kailuamom, I have some problems.
1. It seems to me that the rules of our society are never open to discussion, debate, or clarification. You said "Knowing how to manage these "rules" may be totally stupid and ridiculous, but most people will not draw you a diagram about what it takes to be invited or accepted by them. " I believe this illustrates what I say here. My question is why aren't these things open to discussion, debate, or clarification? What is mainstream society afraid of? Why don't people in mainstream society want to dicuss their beliefs whatsoever? .
2. People try to treat rules as though they are innate. In my opinion, I believe they need to be rotely taught and should be open to discussion, debate, or clarification. Why do some people try to treat these rules as though they're innate? Why do some people make all of these assumptions like I am x age I should know y. How do they derive these things?
Another question I ask of you Kailuamom is can mainstream society ever be wrong in it's beliefs, assumptions, and ideas? .
I find this kind of ironic, as a parent of an AS kid, I keep being told that I need to make sure I keep things black and white, so he will know what to expect. I keep being told that he is rule based and likes when people know and follow the rules. SO.... not that I disagree with questioning rules, I do. BUT how do you propose that "the unspoken rules of mainstream society" be changed? It's not like we can send a memo. I think that these rules do change over time. But, since this was about banners kids should know by age 9, I think for our kids who won't just figure it out, it is good to give them a map. If they want to grow up and change these to ba appropriate for them, that's teriffic!
BTW - If you invite yourself over, you owe double thanks for allowing you to take their time and space, since it wasn't in their plan.
