Need help with mouthy aspie

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Fair point, I didn't mean lie to the child, I meant show very clearly why something needs doing, in a way that will show clearly the effect that not doing it will have on him. The money example worked on me because it was mostly true, my parents didn't spend money on other luxuries either. The second one would not have worked on me because although I knew my Mum hated housework, it was also obvious, even to an Aspie like me that she didn't do very much of it, and was in no danger of exhaustion.

Teaching social hierarchies can backfire too. My family was very good at it, actually. To the point of instilling in my mind that I was the lowest of the low, when it came to the chain of command. Talking back, let alone not doing what I'm told, was simply not an option! Which made me an "easy" child for my parents and teachers, and I viewed at par for the course. After all, I was just a lowly child, and they were all-powerful adults.

It all had a detrimental effect on my life until age 29. It made me a class weakling at school. It made me a submissive yes-man at work. It made me a schmuck among most friends I once hung with. It made me a approval-seeking beta male with women. None of which made me happy, except for "punishment averted!" feelings of relief, when I was able to appease other people at the expense of my own happiness.

Fortunately, I was able to cast off those negative teachings, for the most part. School is all but forgotten. I learned to push back against sociopathic posses, with some degree of success. I kicked bad friends out of my life, and found new good ones. And dating? I heavily embraced MGTOW, and will not allow a woman to come within 10 feet of me in a romantic sense. (I have women friends, though.)

I would be really careful with this. Constantly talking to him about his weaknesses is going to be have a very bad effect on his self-esteem. Does he show an interest in working on soft-skills at this point to further his goals or is it it more that you are constantly pushing them on him? It is not that soft-skills are not important IRL, but frankly he has time to develop them before they impact his career aspirations. You can plant a seed here and there, when relevant sure, but you don't want to be constantly talking about this. Nobody --NT or not-- wants to be constantly reminded of his/her weaknesses. Imagine if everyday at work your boss did that? How would that make you feel?

Also, I think the emphasis on empathy is misplaced. I know that right now this is a parenting trend in certain circles to emphasize this -- so I don't know if part of this is that you are picking up on that, but it sounds like he is doing fine in this regard. It doesn't even sound like he has deficits in feeling empathy so much as showing empathy. He has plenty of time to learn to how and when to fake this. It is frankly an exhausting exercise and honestly he will probably limit doing so to when it is absolutely necessary.



You are just going to have to accept that these safety issues will persist for longer than they would for an NT kid. Kids jump around and have to be policed for safety issues. You may have to revisit if your home is adequately child proofed. If it is that he just crashes into things in general then you can have him move his play to outside or maybe try to play with him and guide the play to something somewhat more gentle.



This is par. Often it is developmental -- meaning nothing you do is going to hurry it. Sometimes you can get something to click, but it is trial and error and highly variable.



You probably do not want to hear this but the easiest. most efficient approach will be if you understand his point of view and then you can figure out how to talk to him on that basis. By seeing things from his point of view, i do not mean being able to recite all his deficits in ToM etc. I mean actually trying to understand his logic and discuss things from his perspective and not your own.

One of the most curious things I have found is that neurotypicals love to think they have great ToM, but they really don't. They can't understand anyone who does not have the same type of group think. I think neurotypicals can just fake it better because when they think anything like "How would I feel in this situation?" about someone they have a better chance of being right than an autistic person just from the percentages.

So, when dealing with your son do not think about how you would feel -- think about how he would feel? Just like when you teach it to him you have to ask how most people would feel not how he would feel. You have to do the opposite and think of how it looks from his perspective in a noncritical way.

Edited for clarity.

Last edited by ASDMommyASDKid on 25 Nov 2017, 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Absolutely essential point. There is something seriously wrong with this entire Theory of Mind theory.

Why don't you read the letter I wrote for my son at his 8th birthday, and understand how this situation can be handled?

http://www.eikonabridge.com/Ivan_8th_birthday.pdf

Just because the rest of the world is wrong, doesn't mean that we need to follow them. Just because there are homophobic people out there, it doesn't justify parents subjecting their children to "conversion therapy" to make them straight. Just because there are white supremacists out there, it doesn't mean that the non-white people need to hunker down. Just because something is listed in DSM, doesn't mean that it is right. Homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder in the second edition of DSM (1968). Where is THAT in DSM today? Remember women were not able to vote, and black people had to sit in the back of the bus? There is never a lack of excuses for conformity. Nahh... read my letter to my son. (Actually, the first letter I wrote was for my daughter, similarly at her 8th birthday.) From the day each of my children was born, I have been preparing for them to be leaders, not followers.

Parents are their children's role model.

Getting angry is perfectly human. Both children and adults are entitled to be angry. Without people getting angry, there wouldn't be a country called U.S.A. Anger is what gets things done, in a lot of situations. Thomas Jefferson is a well-known autistic person. To be frank, the entire foundation of the U.S.A. is rather autistic. (Canada would be a case of a neurotypical country.)

Getting angry is not the issue. Doing the right thing is the issue. The two things need to be separated. People make wrong decisions often because they don't have enough information. Galileo was sent to inquisition for proposing heliocentrism. How many times in history have people made wrong decisions? Your decision is only as good as the amount of information you have access to. Autism is still listed as a mental disorder in DSM. It's a bad decision. But that is because those psychologists don't have full information about autism. That's why they make mistakes. Doing the right thing is the main issue. Whether people get angry or not, is largely irrelevant.

(Why don't people track what kinds of names I've been called in this forum? Did I lose my cool? Nope, it's all the other people that have called me names the ones that have disappeared from this forum. Do people realize that in the long term, I am the one prevailing? Why? Because I do have more information about autism that other people out there.)

I am sure most parents and children do have fun time together. The main thing is to remember to connect the negative moments to the positive moments, and vice-versa. I do that quite often. It works for both cases (adults' red lines and children's tantrums). Good moments to talk to children are (a) when having fun, or right afterwards, (b) at bedtime, before you sing some funny lullabies to your young children.

See, this approach doesn't just apply to families. Most companies use the same approach. That is why a lot of companies out there organize "off-site" or "team-building" events.

thanks for all the help everyone. here is what we plan to do..

1> explore valerian root as a relaxant for myself. I work odd hours/shifts and I hear this helps get you mellow/relax. if it doesn't help, explore other anger management steps.

2> disclosure of diagnosis [Dx] to child. this is a tough one.. Most perspectives are from grown up aspies who look back and say it would have helped them to have had it as a child. This aspect especially needs a strong theory of mind.. one has to put themselves in the shoes of a 12 year old and see if having a Dx that has no cure is helpful. An adult who is somewhat capable of handling adversity can mostly think from his/her current perspective and capability of handling a curve ball and extrapolate it to his/her younger self. Most kids would be depressed to hear the news.

so this Dx disclosure will be deferred till he shows more ability to deal with adversity.

3> get the child's perspective on why he does things in a non conventional way. we do this currently too. he says it is mostly due to a habit that has set in. change things slowly is the goal. One small example- holding a pencil with thumb and middle finger instead of thump and index finger. this hampers his writing speed and clarity. use an extended period of time to measure results.

the idea behind behavioral/ physical interventions is not to turn him into an NT. the idea is to help him achieve HIS goals in a way that NTs around him don't form/act as additional obstacles in the road to his goals, by picking on his style of doing things.

thanks

How about you ask some people who were diagnosed when they were children and were informed about their diagnosis how they feel about being told about their diagnosis before you decide to continue keeping this information from your son?

Well, there is your problem right there. You have decided it is like you are telling him he has a death sentence. If you have that thought process and you plan to explain it that way to your son -- then you have a self-for filling prophecy. You think he will get all depressed about it b/c that is how you feel. If you treat it like something that is not terrible, then you don't have this problem.

Occupational Therapy, to work on handwriting, is often available in the schools. We had it for awhile. It is possible he holds the pencil oddly b/c he lacks foundational finger muscle strength or it may be one of a few alternate grips that are still considered fine mature grips. You can google pictures to see if your child's grip is described as an immature or mature grip. If it is an alternate mature grip that he prefers, and you just think it is less efficient, leave him be, and let him do it anyway. If it is an immature grip then it will resolve with increased finger strength and then practice with the new grip once finger strength is improved. You can buy finger grips to help with this.

As a general thing, sometimes they start doing things one way and get rigid about it and don't swap to a different grip out of rigidity. That was part of of our deal too -- and working on those other things helped as well.

Fat pens are often used by the disabled.

https://www.amazon.com/Pencils-Chubby-K ... B014LUV5MQ

I think there isba lot of good advice and perspective in this thread. My 2c

cvam - You're working hard for your kid, and it sounds like it's pushing yourself to a breaking point. But I think you are missing something key here: You are asking your kid to be introspective and identfy issues in his life abd behaviors and do change work on all sorts of stuff he is dealing with. BUT... you have failing to do this for yourself, regarding the issues driving you to "be mean" to your kid. I don't say this to be harsh, I am saying this because it is critically important for yourself as a parent and as a human being struggling with and as a parent. This is a common problem that sinks many attempts to connecy and help others, but it's critical. To successfully help others with introspection and change work, you have to be willing to go through this yourself.

Whatever your anger and inability to control your outbursts at your kid stems from is probably very reasonable, we all have imperfect pasts and problems and imperfect upbringings anf relationships. But now that this is impacting your kid, you need to find a good therapist and identify and work through these issues. I don't mean to trivialize this effort, it can be hard to find a therapist who is good and a good match, plus who has time time (and sometimes money) but if you're not working to tackle this issue of your own with some vigor, how can you expect your 12-year-old kid to do better with his issues?

Please consider seeking a good therapist. There are no good excuses when it's something as important as your kid, he has a lot of challenges and introspection and figuring out ahead of him and nothing would be better for him than having a mom who works to be mindful of her own past and issues and quirks and habits and ways of thinking.

Last note: I remember a lot about my thoughts and questions and thoughts and habits and beliefs when I was 12. As you are probably aware, based on the types of philosphical conversations you've had, a 12 year aspie can be very mature in many ways and handle adult level concepts. I didnt learn about AS until I was 20, but I desperately needed to know in my high school years and I estimate that 12 would have been just the right age for someone to have had that conversation with me. Just putting that out there, we (people in general) always fight today's battles with yesterday's strategies, so keep in mind that he may not have been ready a year or two ago, but he may be ready now, and he will certainly be ready or long overdue in a few years time.

Thanks for reading and best of luck to you and your son with the challnges you and each have ahead.

Edit: aplogies for the typos, this was written on a phone.

This guy gets it!

cvam, first off, you should be ashamed of yourself! Second, you're forgetting something extremely important: you have lots more coping methods than your son will ever have as a child/teen. And by that, I mean alcohol, tobacco, and junk food. If you have a bad day at work in general, you can easily chug a big can of beer, swig wine straight out the bottle, pound some shots of vodka, smoke a cigarette, or eat two Big Macs. Bam! Problems are successfully drowned out. Relaxing comfort envelops your mind and body. You're happy again.

What does your son have to help him cope? Nothing!! ! Just his own underdeveloped mind! And you yelling at him, of course. He's too young to drink, after all. In fact, I was 12 when I first started sneaking alcohol from the liquor cabinet, to help me cope with school, my overbearing family, and an incompetent therapist. It was better than any therapy I ever had. I didn't like vodka at the time, but I did like whiskey; I described its smell as "woodsy". It was so comforting, I drink liquor to cope with stress to this day. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. (Ha!)

Please don't tell people coming here for advice to be ashamed of themselves. It's not ok, and it doesn't help anybody. Shame is one of the least fruitful emotions on this planet. It doesn't help you do anything at all.

The OP asked for help and advice and he is getting help and advice.

I saw a lot of good advice in this thread.

OP: When you're under a lot of stress as a parent, there is a tendency to focus too much on the child and too little on yourself. You know that thing they say on planes about putting on your own oxygen mask before your child? The reasoning is that your child is dependent on you and if you pass out from lack of oxygen you can't take care of the child. This simile is perhaps overused when talking about relationships, but in this case I think it applies perfectly.

I think you're way past the point that a bit of valerian will help you with your anger issues and your difficult relationship with your child. You're heading for teenage years now, traditionally the worst time of life for an aspie. Better nip these problems in the bud before they manage to really blossom.

I am not sure how to express to you the seriousness of the situation without heaping on the guilt. It's hard talking to parents, we never want to admit that something we do is messing up our child.

What I do want to say is that your situation is very fixable, with the help of a decent therapist.

Please stop the lecturing. Can I interpret these conversations for you, aspie-style?

When you compare Tesla and Edison, he's already figured out how he's like Tesla and not Edison. So he understands that you prefer Edison, and that people like him and Tesla are defective. Since he has no idea how to improve his social skills, you're pretty much telling him he will fail in life. Later, he's going to find out that Edison was a bit of an asshat, which will make it worse, because it will be demonstrated in real life by going to high school, which is generally not man's finest period of social interaction, and where often the absolutely worst guys run the place. This will get better later, but he doesn't know that.

With the social skills, you are basically pushing him to walk before he can crawl. I think your best bet is to teach him to act neutral rather than fake things. It's really good to learn not to draw attention to oneself. Stims can be redirected, but repressing them causes a lot of anxiety, which leads to more stimming......you get the picture.

Please accept that he will probably be a social outcast during the teenage years and that there is little you can do about it other than setting him up with people who share his interests; he can take it from there. Any friendships are a bonus. Brutal? Yes, but your expectations of him developing social skills quickly are unrealistic. It takes time. He'll come to it late.

Also, some of the selfishness I think is just boyish immaturity. There are a lot of selfish little boys, they just tend to be better at faking it than your kid.

I'm hoping the best for you guys. I think the fact that you come here to ask for help is a really good sign that you care about your boy and want to change things for the better.

Best wishes!

Aspie1, cvam is not your abusive parents. He came here because he cares but saw he can't do without outside help. He did it instead of taking a shot to forget. I know the situation reminds you of your own childhood but there is no evidence for such a heavy accusations. I hope you just meant to warn him what can happen if the things go really wrong.

I agree that valerian is too little right now. It's not about not getting angry, it's about... do you remember volcanos in Little Prince? If you clean them regularily, you can use them to boil an egg for breakfast. But if you leave them uncleaned, they erupt and destroy.
You need to learn to clean your volcanos
Then you will be able to teach it to your son. But you first.
A decent therapist can help a lot.

Underwater is right, you are coming up to the hardest years so now is good time to get yourself in a better place so you can help him through them. Kids are cruel and anyone who stands out will cop it. My son made his very first friend when he was 20. He's 22 now and has a couple of friends, but he was always an outcast at school. I understood because I was the same. Being an outcast hurts but it's going to happen. Kids have a sixth sense for when a child is on the spectrum. In my opinion, building his self-esteem is actually more important than trying to teach social skills. Self-esteem gives people resilience.

Oh and just to add, my son is studying law at Uni on a full scholarship and he's nailing it. He always loved talking politics, social issues like inequality etc. He has a photographic memory an auditory eidetic memory. He is one of the clearest thinkers you could ever meet and he's perfectly suited to law. Contrary to what people think, social skills are less important than being able to remember the laws and case law precedents and produce cogent arguments. My son has always had a radar like ability to spot weaknesses, contradictions and faulty logic. I almost pity anyone who will face across a courtroom. He's also passionate about law. He will do whatever he needs to succeed. If he decides he needs to improve his social skills, he will, and he will do it because it will be HIS choice, not because anyone is forcing him to. He has never responded well to being forced to do anything. The thing is, a person does best doing something they are passionate about. Whether that's science or law is a decision only your son make.