Help Child thinks School work is Optional
Another thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post: ALCOHOL. If something goes wrong in a teacher's day at school, he/she can drink some vodka after getting home, and all is well again. But kids have no such source of comfort; just their own mind! So when the OP's son's teacher has too many essays to grade, she can pound some shots after she's done. But when the OP's son has too much homework, he has nothing to relax himself with! Just the dumb, ineffective "natural relaxation" crap.
As you can tell, I started (ab)using alcohol pretty early. I was 12 when I first started sneaking whiskey to relax myself.
Another thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post: ALCOHOL. If something goes wrong in a teacher's day at school, he/she can drink some vodka after getting home, and all is well again. But kids have no such source of comfort; just their own mind! So when the OP's son's teacher has too many essays to grade, she can pound some shots after she's done. But when the OP's son has too much homework, he has nothing to relax himself with! Just the dumb, ineffective "natural relaxation" crap.
As you can tell, I started (ab)using alcohol pretty early. I was 12 when I first started sneaking whiskey to relax myself.
Could your parents have been on the spectrum as well?
I had a lot of homework all right as a kid and school was very overwhelming. That was because I had very bad ADD so I had massive homework and it would take me all evening to get it done. I think that was one of the reasons why I would turn my work in late and my mom gave me breaks too. I used to think all kids had this much homework and it took them till bed time to get it done but I find out it actually doesn't take them long at all to do and that was just abnormal for me what I went through. I never got in trouble for my grades and I didn't care about my grades because I didn't understand them. I just thought grades were based on what the teacher decides what to give you so hearing about parents punishing their kids for a B or a C or a D was child abuse under my eyes because I didn't understand how it would be the kid's fault. No I just had a learning disability so anything language based I got C's in. I think B's are good. I don't know why some parents are picky about grades. I know lot of kids hate homework but for me it was very different when I hated it.
_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed and ASD lv 1.
Daughter: NT, no diagnoses. Possibly OCD. Is very private about herself.
Another thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post: ALCOHOL. If something goes wrong in a teacher's day at school, he/she can drink some vodka after getting home, and all is well again. But kids have no such source of comfort; just their own mind! So when the OP's son's teacher has too many essays to grade, she can pound some shots after she's done. But when the OP's son has too much homework, he has nothing to relax himself with! Just the dumb, ineffective "natural relaxation" crap.
As you can tell, I started (ab)using alcohol pretty early. I was 12 when I first started sneaking whiskey to relax myself.
Yeah... See another thing is I think you are making some false assumptions about adults and drinking. If this is what you observed, I understand the assumption, but the notion that all adults use alcohol (or other mind altering substances) as a coping mechanism is incorrect. Assuming that all the adults in your life were colluding against you is a function of how terrible your parents were, I am sure. Using your parents to generalize that the world is solely occupied by adults who have kids just to exercise petty power plays over them and deprive them of joy is incorrect as well.
I am not saying adults/parents are all roses and unicorns. My parents had some serious issues that they visited upon me, at various points. My father was not above the petty power play, though it was fairly infrequent. My mother would throw me and my sibling under the bus, if it made her life easier. She had serious anxiety problems which she would amerliorate by making rules or nagging about things we did or did not do, or whatever it took to make her anxiety go away regardless of how these things affected us. She would not pull that crap on strangers or extended family who she was a people pleaser for -- just us.
So, it is not like I don't get it. Parents can suck and are often unfair-- but most of it is because of their own issues and not some plot designed to oppress children for no good reason. It may seem that way to a child who either does not have access to the background information or otherwise not in a position to analyze these things--but I don't think most families run quite so badly as you assume.
...
So, it is not like I don't get it. Parents can suck and are often unfair-- but most of it is because of their own issues and not some plot designed to oppress children for no good reason. It may seem that way to a child who either does not have access to the background information or otherwise not in a position to analyze these things--but I don't think most families run quite so badly as you assume.
Either way, I decided to never have kids. I know I'll be tempted to exert too much power over them, like by enforcing excessively early bedtimes, taking away toys I deem "unacceptable", prohibiting little pleasures, or controlling their lives with the rigidness of US Marines. Not to mention, based on what I read in the news, America's schools are turning into a pathetic circus, full of draconian rules and snowflake teachers. I sure as hell wouldn't want my kid going though that, even if I'll relish my power over him/her at home.
...
So, it is not like I don't get it. Parents can suck and are often unfair-- but most of it is because of their own issues and not some plot designed to oppress children for no good reason. It may seem that way to a child who either does not have access to the background information or otherwise not in a position to analyze these things--but I don't think most families run quite so badly as you assume.
Either way, I decided to never have kids. I know I'll be tempted to exert too much power over them, like by enforcing excessively early bedtimes, taking away toys I deem "unacceptable", prohibiting little pleasures, or controlling their lives with the rigidness of US Marines. Not to mention, based on what I read in the news, America's schools are turning into a pathetic circus, full of draconian rules and snowflake teachers. I sure as hell wouldn't want my kid going though that, even if I'll relish my power over him/her at home.
Kids are not for everyone and people who try to cajole people into having kids they don't want are incredibly annoying and short-sighted. I know this is a problem you have and honestly you have more patience than I did for it when I had to listen to that nonsense. (I have a son, now but at the time I did not plan on having kids at all) I was much more direct and snippy about it which helped deter the conversation once I got cruder about it. I would totally recommend shutting the conversation down as rudely as possible for repeat offenders unless they have other redeeming qualities you are willing to overlook their persistent presumptuousness for.
Some people seem to make it their life's mission to convert everyone into making the same life's choices they did. I don't know if it is that they need everyone to do the same thing to validate their own choices, or just that nonconformity makes them profoundly uncomfortable.
Oh, and speaking of alcohol, happy New Year!
Oh, and speaking of alcohol, happy New Year!
I think you are right about that and I also think for a lot of NTs it is not unpleasant b/c while they have little power, they figure out a way to navigate the system to make it more tolerable. In addition I think a lot of people think the trade off of no power for no "real person" responsibility is worth it. For people on the spectrum, it is really hard to navigate to where things are OK. Adults suck a lot of times, The system sucks, and other kids suck, too.
Even though my dad could be difficult, at least I felt like we were the same species. (My dad was more AS than me; also undiagnosed) So even when he was being a jerk, I at least understood what he was doing and he had insight into my issues if I wanted to talk about them.
My mom was at best useless and at worst counterproductive and undermining because she had zero theory of mind in how I felt about really anything. Feeling alone in the world was the worst part, and at least when talking to my dad, when he was in the mood for a productive talk, I mostly didn't.
Being an adult is much better. Not everything is under your control, but the petty dictators in life seem more manageable when you don't have to live in their homes or under their thumbs.
Happy New Year to you too.
I'll give you credit for one thing, though. You're totally right that NT kids have ways of making their childhoods less unpleasant. Mainly by finding ways to get what they want from their parents, be it by sucking up or by manipulation. Aspie kids, unfortunately, have no such luxury, and have to rely entirely on their parents' goodwill.
I think childhood is all about learning to be independent and getting ready for the real world. Why do you think kids are not held as accountable as adults are? But then they get to their teens, they can be held as accountable as adults depending on the severity of their crime, even pre adolescents can too. It's already expected they know right from wrong but if they were never taught well or didn't have the right environment to grow up in, they are screwed. Our laws are too black and white.
I think once you become an adult, your perspectives change about your childhood and you understand where your parents were coming from like when they wouldn't let you get anything you wanted or new toys or let you eat junk food. It changes even more when you become a parent. If I let my kids get everything they wanted, we would always be broke and our house would be like a hoarding nest and lot of the toys wouldn't even be played with by our kids and everything would be tossed around and then it would me junk because it would all be missing pieces. If I let my kids eat any thing they wanted, they would get fat and wouldn't be very healthy. As for TV, too much of it is bad and it doesn't help with brain development. Playing does like building, drawing, pretend play, kids playing together also helps with their development as well, you can't get that from TV. Plus you want them to get some activity level.
So I think us parents do remember our childhoods well and then we go "oh I get it" and we appreciate our parents more. This is assumed if you had a normal family and not controlling and narcissistic parents. I realized as a parent how much easier my childhood would have been if I had just listened to my mother. I got this realization after seeing my son not staying in bed and he was just getting into deeper and deeper trouble. Yes I remember very well how that felt for me as a child that I didn't want to go to bed. I remember very well how it felt to be grounded or have things taken from me. But I realize something, none of that wouldn't have happened if I just listened to my mother. I doubt she liked doing any of that stuff to me because I sure don't like yelling at my kids or punishing them. I tell my son he is making it harder when he doesn't listen. I wished my mother had told me that but would I have understood? I wonder why can't parents just tell their kids why they should go to bed? My mom used to just say I wouldn't be able to get up in the morning but I had that problem anyway and it didn't matter how soon I went to bed, I just never felt tired and boredom is what I hated because I would be laying in bed doing nothing but looking at the stars. So I have told my son how much easier my childhood would have been if I listened to my mother and told him why. I also tell him why I don't let him eat any time he wants or else he would get fat and his clothes wouldn't fit and he would have nothing to wear. I am not buying him new clothes unless he grows, not because he got wider. I have also showed him those TV shows about My 600 lb Life so he knows this is what happens if you eat too much. This is why I don't let you eat lot of sugar and why I get upset when you keep asking for food when it's not time to eat yet.
I bet if parents just give their kids reasons behind things like with food and toys and stuff and why they won't let them have them, would make it a lot easier for them so that is what I do with my kids. I tell them why I don't keep buying them toys. Money, I don't want the clutter, they just throw it around and not take care of it, it's a waste of money if they will only play with it once. Kids wants everything they see and they get bored with it quickly once they get it. But if they keep talking about the same toy over and over, then you know they really want it and it's not something they will forget about and just toss aside and never play with it again. I also explain to them why they should always pick up their toys when they are done, the mess will get bigger and bigger and it will be hard to clean up and take longer to clean up.
Adults do have homework. My mom worked as a nurse and she sometimes had to take classes or study at home and she also had to fill out her patient charts and she did that in her bedroom. Depending on what job you have, you have to have a license and every few years you have to renew it and that is some homework there. I am taking acting classes and I have to memorize scripts and that is homework and I am an adult. Do you think us adults just do it in class? Do you think adults only do their work during work hours? Even actors have homework and that is memorizing their lines and practicing their parts. Do you think they only do acting when they are working on the set? My dad would also have homework sometimes. He would have it whenever he needed to renew his appraiser license. Adults still have to do things they don't want to do like pay bills or run errands and they might call that homework because it takes them effort to get it done.
Lot of adults don't like doing chores either. To them cleaning is an effort. Why do you think there are dirty houses out there and messy ones? They don't enjoy cleaning is why? It's a chore. I enjoy housework so it's never a chore to me and I don't find it overwhelming.
_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed and ASD lv 1.
Daughter: NT, no diagnoses. Possibly OCD. Is very private about herself.
I think once you become an adult, your perspectives change about your childhood and you understand where your parents were coming from like when they wouldn't let you get anything you wanted or new toys or let you eat junk food. It changes even more when you become a parent. If I let my kids get everything they wanted, we would always be broke and our house would be like a hoarding nest and lot of the toys wouldn't even be played with by our kids and everything would be tossed around and then it would me junk because it would all be missing pieces. If I let my kids eat any thing they wanted, they would get fat and wouldn't be very healthy. As for TV, too much of it is bad and it doesn't help with brain development. Playing does like building, drawing, pretend play, kids playing together also helps with their development as well, you can't get that from TV. Plus you want them to get some activity level.
So I think us parents do remember our childhoods well and then we go "oh I get it" and we appreciate our parents more. This is assumed if you had a normal family and not controlling and narcissistic parents. I realized as a parent how much easier my childhood would have been if I had just listened to my mother. I got this realization after seeing my son not staying in bed and he was just getting into deeper and deeper trouble. Yes I remember very well how that felt for me as a child that I didn't want to go to bed. I remember very well how it felt to be grounded or have things taken from me. But I realize something, none of that wouldn't have happened if I just listened to my mother. I doubt she liked doing any of that stuff to me because I sure don't like yelling at my kids or punishing them. I tell my son he is making it harder when he doesn't listen. I wished my mother had told me that but would I have understood? I wonder why can't parents just tell their kids why they should go to bed? My mom used to just say I wouldn't be able to get up in the morning but I had that problem anyway and it didn't matter how soon I went to bed, I just never felt tired and boredom is what I hated because I would be laying in bed doing nothing but looking at the stars. So I have told my son how much easier my childhood would have been if I listened to my mother and told him why. I also tell him why I don't let him eat any time he wants or else he would get fat and his clothes wouldn't fit and he would have nothing to wear. I am not buying him new clothes unless he grows, not because he got wider. I have also showed him those TV shows about My 600 lb Life so he knows this is what happens if you eat too much. This is why I don't let you eat lot of sugar and why I get upset when you keep asking for food when it's not time to eat yet.
I bet if parents just give their kids reasons behind things like with food and toys and stuff and why they won't let them have them, would make it a lot easier for them so that is what I do with my kids. I tell them why I don't keep buying them toys. Money, I don't want the clutter, they just throw it around and not take care of it, it's a waste of money if they will only play with it once. Kids wants everything they see and they get bored with it quickly once they get it. But if they keep talking about the same toy over and over, then you know they really want it and it's not something they will forget about and just toss aside and never play with it again. I also explain to them why they should always pick up their toys when they are done, the mess will get bigger and bigger and it will be hard to clean up and take longer to clean up.
Adults do have homework. My mom worked as a nurse and she sometimes had to take classes or study at home and she also had to fill out her patient charts and she did that in her bedroom. Depending on what job you have, you have to have a license and every few years you have to renew it and that is some homework there. I am taking acting classes and I have to memorize scripts and that is homework and I am an adult. Do you think us adults just do it in class? Do you think adults only do their work during work hours? Even actors have homework and that is memorizing their lines and practicing their parts. Do you think they only do acting when they are working on the set? My dad would also have homework sometimes. He would have it whenever he needed to renew his appraiser license. Adults still have to do things they don't want to do like pay bills or run errands and they might call that homework because it takes them effort to get it done.
Lot of adults don't like doing chores either. To them cleaning is an effort. Why do you think there are dirty houses out there and messy ones? They don't enjoy cleaning is why? It's a chore. I enjoy housework so it's never a chore to me and I don't find it overwhelming.
Why can't a number people explain crap as clear and articulate as you just did?
I think I explained what I meant incorrectly. By responsibilities I did not mean tasks so much as the ultimate responsibility of having everyone's needs provided for. Of course this depends on the type of family also because there are parents who will burden even very young children with their adult worries about worrying if they can pay bills, worries about possibly losing ones job etc. But in my limited experience, these things are usually black boxed and not on children's radar to worry about. People who have not had to deal with those worries as children, but have to worry about them as adults, look at that time wistfully as feeling like they were "worry-free" (forgetting the worries they did have at the time) and taken care of.
Of course the worst combination is having the worries communicated to you, but them not being able to fix them. This would make you feel scared and powerless to do anything to help your situation.
As far as homework goes, it really depends on the type of job you have. When I was a kid, most adults I knew had 9-5 jobs that ended when they got home. There were exceptions even then -- Doctors who were on call, teachers who had to make lesson plans for new additions to the curriculum, or grade papers, people who had part time jobs in addition to full time work, people who had to work overtime which in a way is like homework, etc. Today (depending on the job) you might be tethered to your cell phone, having to answer work-related questions at almost all hours, You may have to VPN into work to do this or that etc. As far as chores go, we were not given any, but I knew my mom did not like them because she complained about them. We didn't get any because my parents did not believe in giving children chores and in any event would have required initial investment in time and effort teaching how to do what would initially be an unsatisfactory job. It never occurred to me adults could like them -- but I could see they just needed to be done so the house would not fall apart or get gross. In addition you will get fined in many locations if you don't take care of your lawn or shovel snow.
I think I explained what I meant incorrectly. By responsibilities I did not mean tasks so much as the ultimate responsibility of having everyone's needs provided for. Of course this depends on the type of family also because there are parents who will burden even very young children with their adult worries about worrying if they can pay bills, worries about possibly losing ones job etc. But in my limited experience, these things are usually black boxed and not on children's radar to worry about. People who have not had to deal with those worries as children, but have to worry about them as adults, look at that time wistfully as feeling like they were "worry-free" (forgetting the worries they did have at the time) and taken care of.
Of course the worst combination is having the worries communicated to you, but them not being able to fix them. This would make you feel scared and powerless to do anything to help your situation.
As far as homework goes, it really depends on the type of job you have. When I was a kid, most adults I knew had 9-5 jobs that ended when they got home. There were exceptions even then -- Doctors who were on call, teachers who had to make lesson plans for new additions to the curriculum, or grade papers, people who had part time jobs in addition to full time work, people who had to work overtime which in a way is like homework, etc. Today (depending on the job) you might be tethered to your cell phone, having to answer work-related questions at almost all hours, You may have to VPN into work to do this or that etc. As far as chores go, we were not given any, but I knew my mom did not like them because she complained about them. We didn't get any because my parents did not believe in giving children chores and in any event would have required initial investment in time and effort teaching how to do what would initially be an unsatisfactory job. It never occurred to me adults could like them -- but I could see they just needed to be done so the house would not fall apart or get gross. In addition you will get fined in many locations if you don't take care of your lawn or shovel snow.
Was it hard to do chores as an adult and even clean because you were never taught that as a child?
_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed and ASD lv 1.
Daughter: NT, no diagnoses. Possibly OCD. Is very private about herself.
I think I explained what I meant incorrectly. By responsibilities I did not mean tasks so much as the ultimate responsibility of having everyone's needs provided for. Of course this depends on the type of family also because there are parents who will burden even very young children with their adult worries about worrying if they can pay bills, worries about possibly losing ones job etc. But in my limited experience, these things are usually black boxed and not on children's radar to worry about. People who have not had to deal with those worries as children, but have to worry about them as adults, look at that time wistfully as feeling like they were "worry-free" (forgetting the worries they did have at the time) and taken care of.
Of course the worst combination is having the worries communicated to you, but them not being able to fix them. This would make you feel scared and powerless to do anything to help your situation.
As far as homework goes, it really depends on the type of job you have. When I was a kid, most adults I knew had 9-5 jobs that ended when they got home. There were exceptions even then -- Doctors who were on call, teachers who had to make lesson plans for new additions to the curriculum, or grade papers, people who had part time jobs in addition to full time work, people who had to work overtime which in a way is like homework, etc. Today (depending on the job) you might be tethered to your cell phone, having to answer work-related questions at almost all hours, You may have to VPN into work to do this or that etc. As far as chores go, we were not given any, but I knew my mom did not like them because she complained about them. We didn't get any because my parents did not believe in giving children chores and in any event would have required initial investment in time and effort teaching how to do what would initially be an unsatisfactory job. It never occurred to me adults could like them -- but I could see they just needed to be done so the house would not fall apart or get gross. In addition you will get fined in many locations if you don't take care of your lawn or shovel snow.
Was it hard to do chores as an adult and even clean because you were never taught that as a child?
I wish I lived near you or you lived near me. I would ask you to show me how to do some of these chores and maintain my concentration on them. I'm on limited funds so I wouldn't be able to pay you much.
My preschool/elementary school (before I learned to deal with boring tasks) teachers solved the issue by giving me more challenging schoolwork compared to my classmates.
It could be also solved by setting a time limit (we know you can do it but HOW FAST can you do it?), making it a game - but only if the task isn't too boring. This one I was kinda doing by myself - I would do my school work then look around, to help my peers with theirs because I was just too fast.
And by explaining that schoolwork isn't for him to learn anything but for the teacher to know he knows how to do it. Like a test.
And by making sure the tasks aren't actually too boring. I had a few teachers doing this - everyone in class complained their homeworks are pointless/boring/too long. Most recent was an IT course. It was basically copy-paste-run-figure out-take a screenshot-upload screenshot-repeat, 100 times in a row, wasting 3 hours. I could figure out the code result of 95 out of the 100 examples without actually running it so I only run and screenshot the few I didn't know. And I got an F.
Sometimes it's the school/teacher who is at fault, not the student.
The reason I'm reaching out, is that he's "refusing" to do some class work. For some reason he thinks some of the work the teachers pass out is OPTIONAL. Although the teachers tell him that its not, that he has to do it and its part of his grade. 2nd semester grades have been released and before he was a solid A/B student, now he's all C's or C-'s. I reach out to the SPED team member who has helped us the most and she wrote a very honest e-mail about The Child's classroom performance. We're extremely thankful for her honesty. (Don't get me wrong, we've had fights with the school, but this one teacher is great).
She wrote "I also think his focus in class continues to be variable. There are days when he is more concerned with whatever he is using at his desk (i.e. origami) than completing his classwork. We continue to cue him to refocus. Sometimes he argues about the value of an assignment instead of just doing it. "
We've talked to him about this, and explained how schoolwork is not optional and that its his "job" and... we said it all. He'll have to do summer school or repeat a grade, etc. He still doesn't "get it". I've asked him why he doesn't do it and he says, "its too easy" or "I already know how to do that." or "I can do it in my head." (He has been tested as gifted, so that may be true but besides the point).
I'm asking for any advice on how to explain to The Child that the work needs to get done. Any other parents experienced this? Do you have any advice?
Man, I'm just so drained. Tired. Its always such a struggle. I love him to bits but what I wouldn't give for a few days in Aruba
Rose
I was actually similar. You have to remember that what the institution is making your child do, is not always in your child's best interest. There is no "one size fits all" for education and learning. Throughout most of elementary school, I felt like I was a square peg trying to be hammered into a round hole. Teachers would give me worksheet over worksheet, which I could complete, but that I found boring, wasn't getting any faster at, and thought was essentially a waste of my time, and I still feel that way.
I would have preferred that time be used engaging in something I found interesting, useful or fulfilling and I feel that their attempts to force me to do the work was more detrimental than not.
I was proficient at reading and writing and could do arithmetic and multiplication, albeit slowly, and I think those two thing were the most important takeaways from elementary school. As far as middle school goes, the one thing I wish I had learned was algebra so I could move on to calculus in high school and wouldn't have had to take it in college. I was held back in math though because I was slow with arithmetic and didn't have my times tables memorized, but holding be back put me at a disadvantage and cause a significant delay in my life because even though I struggle with mental arithmetic, I'm gifted with higher in higher mathematics and now have a degree in it...I still don't have 8*6 memorized though.
Sometimes the child is smarter than the educators. If I had children, I wouldn't force them to do school work in subjects they were proficient in when they would rather move on and advance their education in other directions.
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