Raised by Aspergers parent

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I am not suggesting abandoning or rescinding, but adapting to reflect changing realities. When those provisions were written there weren't a lot of other effective options available. Now there are, and those options make a lot more sense in relation to the lives children growing up in today's world will be asked to lead. The concept of discipline remains; a parent needs to provide discipline so that the children grow up having a sense of right and wrong. But what "discipline" means and how it can be acheived HAS changed, and there is nothing in the Bible that says we shouldn't incorporate those changes into our understanding of those passages. I have always read them as discussing the concept of discipline, and mandating that some structure exist for it, but NOT requiring "method A" over "method B."

I know different preachers espouse different opinions on all that, but the majority do NOT follow a literal interpretation based on their in depth theological study. I'm not the expert so much as I am someone who will sift through the studies of others and get a sense of the prevailing opinion among those who have done the hard study work and whom have earned respect for their intelligence and faith in doing so. The prevailing opinion is that these are not passages to be taken literally as to HOW to discipline, but are passages to be understood as enforcing the need for discipline as a general concept. The "how," then, can be deferred to information from other sources, including the child raising experts churches often invite to speak - very few of whom teach spanking as an effective disclipline tool in the modern world. I've taken advantage of those opportunities at churches to hear child raising experts speak, and not one that I have personally listened to has espoused spanking. These were Christain based talks sponsored by churches. The focus was clear rules, clear structure, consistency and all the other things you will come to understand are key to parenting successfully. The ideas given for consequences and discipline methods varied, but tended to center on teaching children to think for themselves, to understand that most of what they enjoy are priviliges and thus are earned, etc. The problem with spanking is that it acheives none of that; it is an authoritarian method of subserviance whose lessons are gone as soon as the disciplinarian parent is gone. That worked in a fickle world where authority figures ruled and the rest had to deal with it; it doesn't make sense in a world that comes with daily, difficult choices. I could ramble on, but I'm really not the one who explains it all best. I mostly want you to understand that it isn't as clear as you seem to believe, and that there is Christian theology - the prevailing vew, at that - which takes a different understanding. You don't have to marry physical discipline just because you are Christian, you really do not.

ps - I'm a horrible speller and don't have spellcheck on this browser so please don't use that against me - intelligence comes with many different strengths and weaknesses and I still managed to test as gifted. More important, however, is that I do have faith and I live it.

He is likely just a troll.

The opposite could be argued with regard to options available. In Old Testament times, parents could have a disobedient child executed, unlike today. In light of the Prodigal Son passage in Luke 15 though, I would not be inclined to argue that parents should lament not being able to have their children executed for disobedience. I am sure a parent in biblical times could have just have as easily used the "naughty corner/step" technique.

Anyway, I'm digressing. If several parts of the Bible explicitly endorse spanking, with some even mandating it, it is difficult to argue then that spanking is morally wrong. The Bible frequently uses melodramatic language (e.g. Jesus' comments about ripping one's eyes out or a camel going through the eye of a needle), but it seems odd that the scriptures would endorse something God considered wrong.

I agree that all the passages I mentioned are about the general enforcement of discipline, as not all of them explicitly mention spanking. However, it is still difficult to argue the scriptures preclude spanking as a method of doing so.

How have you come to the conclusion about the majority of Christian experts oppose physical discipline?

Sorry for taking up space everyone, but this posting was edited whilst I was writing my response.

You mentioned clear rules, clear structure and consistency. I advocate that spanking be used in conjunction with all 3 of these things. If there is some inconsistency in when spanking is applied, it loses its effectiveness for teaching children that if you do X, Y will happen and just confuses them, particularly if the child is on the autistic spectrum.

I certainly don't advocate full-on physical discipline right up until the age of legal adulthood and then go cold turkey. The use thereof should be gradually phased out before legal adulthood arrives. By the time a child reaches legal adulthood, (s)he should understand that their actions have consequences beyond their parents. Children should ultimately have a sense of personal responsibility when adulthood arrives, but until children grasp the concept that the world will do good and bad things in response to their actions, parents need to teach them that if you do X, Y will happen.

Yes, in biblical times, many people were more subservient to authority figures, but it is my view that much of the culture of challenging authority that exists in the West stems from Jesus' willingness to challenge people he felt were not behaving appropriately in their positions of power. It seems to me that the aged Pharisees did not like a young upstart preacher in his early 30s challenging them.

Have you got any of the weblinks for any of the writings of the people who have visited your church to talk about disciplining children? It would probably be easier than trying to explain the ideas to me here. Obviously, I don't want to go around with misperceptions about what the scriptures say on an issue and so I am willing to read further on the subject; I will happily accept correction if someone can present a properly-reasoned theological argument that holds water. I cannot yet see theological error in my position on this issue, but I am very willing to admit being wrong if someone can convince me (using the scriptures) that my position is in opposition to what the scriptures say about this matter.

The 'scriptures' you talk about they weren't always collated. They come form various periods from various sources, and have changed over time and there was plenty of selective editing going on.

You are also being selective in your choice of text. Why just accept the King James version of the bible as true or any version?

Yes I can confidently state that I do indeed have more common sense that what you stated. Whether you believe in corporal punishment or not, is not the point (well obviously not with you).

Let us put it to the test shall we? Ok, what if what if your child does nothing whatsoever to deserve such discipline, will you administer it anyway just to be 'just' and moral? What if the child dies before you get to administer it? Will you be damned? Has the child cheated you out of salvation?

In your selfish aim to reach salvation you are putting yourself ahead of others trying to score brownie points, not unlike other extremists who desperately want to reach paradise, when it is actually your responsibility to follow what you think is right (ignorance is not an excuse). I am not religious, but if I was I would still think your intentions are tantamount to worship of false idols, or trying to cheat your way by being a goodie two shoes without out really caring about what is right.

Inability to question things, and form a position is always a bad thing.

graemephillips, since I've got a lot of things to get done today, I'll simply note that you should be able to find these speakers even though I no longer remember the names. I don't think anyone has said spanking is Biblically prohibited; it's more that it isn't mandated and that current study leaves it clear that it isn't the most effective method of discipline for raising moral children capable of meeting the challenges they will face in the modern world. Since you stated earlier that you don't have children yet, you have time to investigate, attend talks, and really give thought to your positions. If you plan to have children, take the time to do so. If you aren't so sure that you will someday, just accept for now that there are alternate theological interpretations out there, strongly supported, and allow those who are closer to the issue to get in the heated debates. While I appreciate your interest in the surrounding questions, I just don't have time to invest further in this discussion that is all theory for you right now, given that I am in the thick of things with my family. They need me for other things today ... and tomorrow ... and you get the point. I did my study and reached my conclusions and I didn't hold onto all the in's and out's of it because other priorities moved in. Sorry.

Given that you are claiming to have more wisdom than God, he will obviously have something to say to you when the Day of Judgement arrives.

I am not a follower of the King James Only movement, even though some people in my church are. I think the movement is completely ridiculous and has no foundation in logic or scripture.

Please explain about the supposed changes and the selective editing in the Bible. Obviously, if you say things like this, people will ask you to back them up.

Regarding the question of what I would do if a child of mine never did anything to deserve physical discipline, I would say that this is an academic question, as the only person who was ever that well-behaved as a child was our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The passages in Proverbs were written under the assumption that the parents reading them were highly unlikely to be raising someone as righteous as Jesus. I would not spank my children if they hadn't done anything wrong, because God tells me to do justice, but I know that any children I have will inevitably behave badly enough to deserve a spanking sometimes, so I will have to use physical discipline sometimes, thereby rendering your question an academic one.

You mention all sorts of ridiculous eventualities. Even Jesus acknowledged that there are times when it is necessary to deviate from the letter of the law. For instance, he mentioned the incident where David and friends found themselves extremely hungry and with only the holy bread that the priests were allowed to eat available for their consumption, so they ate it. Similarly, if a child of mine died before reaching an age where physical discipline would be effective, I don't believe God would punish me for never having used it.

You imply that I am unable to question things and form a position. This is complete rubbish. I am questioning the nonsense you are coming out with and forming the position that your statements don't hold water. I intend to do what is right, but as your wisdom falls severely short of God's, I will be seeking God's wisdom rather than yours when it comes to finding out how to do what is right.

Your points in this message have very little to do with what I actually said and they are not well-founded in the scriptures. If you want to convince me of the morality of something, you will need to say something that ultimately refers to the scriptures to convince me.

Footnote to gramephillips:

If you prefer doing your theological research on the internet, one thing I would recommend against is googling "christian discipline." As a phrase, this has been adopted by the pro-spanking movement, which seems to have a strong internet presence. Even on the internet it gets clouded in talk of having to be careful because "people don't understand" (codeword for being TOTALLY on the fringe). The clues to how marginal some parts of that movement are are there, but you have to be aware. The internet really isn't the best place for serious theological study, IMHO, but sometimes what we have access to is limited and it's all there is.

Ok, would you suggest any websites yourself that you believe to be accurate?

I wish I could but I learned "live" and at various different denominations before doing a random search one day (triggered by something someone had posted on a message board) and discovering what was on line, which was so very different than anything and anyone I know in real life it was mind boggling.

I just came up with a possible connection, and would like some feedback. I think that spanking causes sensory integration to get worse. Just think of all the therapies necessary for kids with SPD to learn to enjoy the feelings their body gives them. Brushing, and swimming, and horse riding, and touching different textures, etc. Just think of what spanking does to a child from the viewpoint of sensory integration. Some parents (and kids) work so hard just to make hugging tolerable, can you imagine what spanking does to a child's brain?

Well, all this is a bit irrelevant, as spanking is not meant to be comfortable. The idea is that the child doesn't repeat the behaviour that brought on the spanking in the first place.

I question whether all the therapies mentioned are really necessary anyway. If a child doesn't like hugging, then the parents should just get used to it. Also,I would not advocate hugging therapy, as I view it as child abuse: - whilst I support physical discipline, I cannot support the idea of parents putting an autistic child through all that distress just to fulfil their own emotional needs.

I suppose so, especially in Northern California (depending on what part of Northern California you reside in). The image I have of Californian residents is the one portrayed in the South Park episode Smug Alert (synopsis available at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smug_Alert).

Why can't people stick with the issue and not pick on people for a simple thing like spelling!
What's the bloody difference?! It's understandable isn't it?! A person isn't being graded on this website. Heaven forbid that you should make a human error!!

If you are arguing with me over a scriptural matter, you should make sure to spell words correctly, otherwise I may raise questions about your attention to detail and wonder if your argument is flawed.

Well ... I've met one or two of those, but they don't exactly populate the Christian churches around here, so I wouldn't say that the existence of a few overly strictly "PC" folks have much effect on theology discussions.