Raised by Aspergers parent

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Just that the empathy and caring, and expression of same, can be the solution itself for some problems.

Adamantium, again, this seems to be profound point-missing. You say, "if you want to generalize". But in so many of the cases here where people have had negative things to say about their own aspie parents, they are not generalizing. A WPer has been the one insisting on generalizing. The poster with the aspie parent did not generalize; that poster talked about his or her own parent. But the angry WPer read it as "this is about me and all people with AS".

And that's the problem. If you're going to be angry at people who are actually, in their own words, saying "all people with AS" -- without your reading in, or assuming, or feeling that it might take that next step -- then fine. But if you're going to get angry at people who are showing instances where AS has done damage, then no, that's not kosher: that's a denial of someone else's story.

ETA: there's a related step I want to block. What I've seen on this thread is that when someone with an AS parent describes awful experiences, the defensive reaction is, "well, you're probably misreading your own life, but even if it's true, it wasn't AS that caused the problem, that's not AS, AS doesn't do that, and I know because I have AS and I don't do that." Which is a logical trainwreck, and usually runs into eyecrossing debates in which the WPer denies that there's any way of recognizing AS or making any generalizations about it at all, even though that'd mean there's no way of diagnosing AS.

In the end though it's aimed at denying that AS in a parent can cause serious problems for a child. Not must; can. And I'll stand firmly on "can". And from there we can build back up to the validity of the experiences of all the children of AS parents who've posted here.

@asdmommy - I can't find your post on this, where you say I've got a double standard about turnthetide, but where did I say that what s/he said wasn't cruel? (Answer: I never did. Nor did I imply it.) You also ask how I'd describe what turnthetide said: as cruel, yes, but also as simply ignorant.

Adamantium made some example-making remark about Jews above. As a Jew in a place with few Jews, I deal with ignorance all.the.time. As a woman in a science department: same. As a poor single mom among rich married people: saaaaame. Here's what I find: attacking ignorant people for being ignorant seldom helps. Most people don't know what they're ignorant of. So, tedious though it is, I just step people through. No, actually, we don't celebrate Christmas, no, really. No, I don't have horns (for real, this still comes up). No, women can't just go focus on their science and succeed, and here's why. No, I can't [do expensive thing], and here's why.

Does it always work, no. Sometimes people are just angry and are there to be abusive (though it's remarkable how often the same people will come back ashamed and apologize afterwards). And sometimes they really don't give a s**t. But much more often than not people are appreciative of the window, and in particular for the chance to learn without being attacked. And no, honestly, sometimes I don't feel like doing the teaching. Sometimes it's just too much. But yeah, on the whole, much better than attacks, I find.

about this thread, btw:

I really think it would be great if there were a place to talk about these things off WP, where it's bound to bruise feelings. (I don't remember who started the thread, btw, though if it's someone with AS, I'd say the "don't ask questions if you don't want to hear the answer" rule applies.) The problem: I've yet to see a single such venue that hasn't been totally hijacked by an angry and defensive person or people with AS. Like to the point where conversation, sharing of experiences, commiseration, healing, support, etc. are impossible. I did find something long ago, I think called ASPAR or some such, but man, that lady sounded nuts, and the whole place was so paranoid that it was impossible, again, to have conversations. I think they just had a series of MY LIFE WAS RUINED BY MY AS PARENT stories, and that was pretty much it.

So -- until an open conversation can happen without AS defenders mobbing it, I'm afraid this is what comes up when someone's searching for "parent with aspergers".

The thread was started by an NT child of an AS parent. I later added the moderator note (when I was actually a moderator) to reduce the amount of AS posters reading who might get bruised feelings.

I personally find this thread valuable on all sides, despite how rough it can get. Face it, we don't deal with very many rainbows or unicorns anywhere on Wrong Planet. Everything is a learning curve for someone involved. If push were to come to shove and we were to have to pick sides, it would by the mission of the forum have to be the ASD members, but whenever that question gets asked, the ASD members here seem to see enough value in the thread to agree to keep it (with or without nudges from me, I'm not sure). So far (I consider that a permanent open question).

There obviously IS a lot of anger from adult children of ASD parents, but I believe anger is a step in any healing process. It can be very, very hard to hear, but it is still a step that has to be taken, JHMO. To me, the goal is figuring out how to move someone on to the next step, and whenever someone new comes into this thread I so wish I was an actual expert on it, who could call it right all the time!

I think, perhaps, that is what our ASD members need to remember: anger is a part of any healing process. Don't focus on things said in anger, but on what needs to follow. Hm, maybe I should get that added to the moderator note.

I really hope, btw, that the earlier poster did not find my words cruel, as you suggested, but until she comes back we won't know. We're all on journeys. We just have to do our best to keep our wakes from colliding and knocking over a buoy.

Your criticism of Adamentium's post was where I got this. He was referring to TurnTheTide, and his response was to that portion of the thread. I felt that your criticism of his response was unfair. He did not attack the last two posters who were more moderate. He was addressing someone who was an out-and-out bigot who responded by childishly deleting his posts. Go back and reread what he posted and what he was referencing. I will edit in a few to repost it.

tarantella64, This is Adamantium's post that you referenced. He was clearly referencing TurnTheTide, and this post was well before the last two posters' posts.

So, my point is that I felt your criticism of what he wrote was a double-standard because it seems like the regular members here are held to an unfair standard of behavior in comparison to the people who bring their bile and hate over here. (Not all, but to the alarming quantity that do this.) That is unfair. If even the most well-meaning of what is said by regular (NT!?!) posters (the "cruel" reference regarding using relationships to fix oneself) is subject to the harshest, possible interpretation, what hope to those of us on the spectrum have of getting any benefit of the doubt at all? This is frustrating.

It is also frustrating and unrealistic to have people come over here, expect to say whatever they want with impunity and those of us with concerns are told we need to shut up unless we have outpourings of empathy for the people who post on here. We do not have to act like "model minorities" and do not have an obligation to burst forth with flowery words to prove we have empathy to be a good example. And we have a right to correct bigotry when it finds its way here, as well. We have the same right as other people do to express how we feel in the way most comfortable to us, particularly on a board for autistic people.

Yes, I know the background of the thread; but the only way to mitigate the harmful, negative externalities of this thread (of which there are many) is to balance it out with an autistic voice and some positivity. People will disagree on that, just as we do about the benefits and costs of this thread and even who is being a constructive poster. Those differences are fundamental differences because multiple people have different ways of looking at things,

It is neither fair nor realistic (or respectful) to expect aspies to just stay off the thread, especially when bigotry regularly seeps in here. (Again, not all posters, but a statistically significant amount. ) We don't even know how many aspies lurk on here without posting how awful some of these posts make them feel. So, yes I do feel a moral obligation to post on here so that young aspies don't get immediately frightened off of having kids because of a few people with bad experiences with aspie parents. Anyone should make the decision to have children on their own qualities and wishes, not based on other people's generalizations---that goes for NTs as well as aspies.

Does that impact the support that legitimate, unbigoted posters feel they get here? I have no doubt it does, but that is the natural result of coming to this particular site. Would it be better if they had a positive place to go that was not on WP? I totally agree with you. But it is what it is, and we all have to make accommodations. Aspies have to deal with bigotry in our "house" and legitimate posters get support that is maybe not best suited for them.

Edited for clarity.

Last edited by ASDMommyASDKid on 25 Feb 2014, 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

I think this is a good topic, but can see why it would cause upset as it taps into everyone's fears about how good a job we're doing with our own kids. I hope in 20 years time my son has come out the other end unscathed and with good memories and a solid foundation for future relationships, but if he hasn't I would want him to be heard no matter how uncomfortable it might make other people. I agree with tarantella in that these guys are speaking about their experiences, their lives and their thoughts/beliefs from their lives. They should be allowed to do so without being shouted down. Maybe they need their own section on the board to do it in though if it is really too upsetting for other parents to read this.

Regardless of what you may have thought you were reading in my response to Adamantium, can you find any reference there to turnthetide?

There isn't one.

In fact if you read it carefully, instead of reading through anger, you will see that I say he's reasonable to label as bigots people who say "all AS people should _____". A group into which turnthetide falls.

This is a very long thread at this point. The comments I made in that post were general ones. If you're now saying that WP denizens have routinely respectfully left alone kids of AS parents who've come in and posted about some terrible experiences *without* announcing that AS people should not have children, or made other such declarations -- well, I think you'd better go back and reread the thread. Because they - we - certainly have been attacked as bigots. Like I said above, the argument generally goes "your horrible parents were horrible for reasons other than AS, and you want to pin it on AS, you're an AS bigot," followed by flurries of "each person with AS is so unique we can't even define characteristics of AS, therefore if you're blaming AS, you're a bigot." The logic frayed seriously.

It would help tremendously if people would read the posts as written, rather than reading in offense and personal attack.

I have reread this thread in it's entirety and that is just not the case.

This thread is full of supportive listening and expressions of sympathy. It's also got, right from page one, quite a few positive, fond memories of good aspie parents. A reality you keep suggesting is somehow "not the point."

Re-read the thread with an open mind. It isn't what you think it is.

That came off as anger? Really? Funny how perceptions differ. I thought I was quite rational. OK, let me try again. I never said you said anything about TurnTheTide's comments being OK. What I said was that you used Adamantium's response to him as a reason to attack Adamantium, and that I think that is inappropriate. If you meant to instead make a general remark about the thread's unwelcoming nature then you had no need to quote Adamantium, much less that particular post. You specifically chose to do that and cannot be surprised when you are held accountable for it.

I have absolutely no intention to say, nor have I ever claimed that this thread is a conventionally welcoming place. In fact, I believe I expressly said it was not. Empathy comes when people feel it and want to express it; not on command. Some of the regular posters have given a few really obnoxious posters a very long leash, constructive advice, and yes, even empathy. That may not be the same as welcoming, and honestly it depends on how the person presents what they say. The last two posters have not been problematic, so I don't even think I, or anyone else presented anything controversial in response.

I can't recall (It is a long thread) that any conflicts arose on this thread other than when there were legitimate questions about someone making generalizations or comments that needed correction/clarification, or because people objected to counter-examples being shared. Obviously, we differ on what we consider to be legitimate questions and also whether it is appropriate to post counter-examples, when people come on seeking empathy or validation or whatever they are seeking. That is a fundamental difference I do not expect to be resolved.

If you want a place to post with a different set of characteristics than what is already available, maybe you should start your own forum for that.. You are allowed to post here, and you are allowed to comment on here as are the rest of us. But you are not part of some special class with special privileges. I am assuming you do not think you are coming off as incredibly entitled, but that is how I read it. It is fine if people want to share their stories, criticize the tone, here, whatever. It would be nice if they did so respectfully. Either way, they may or not get the types of responses they want. That is life.

Edited for punctuation and spelling.

How is this the case? Can you give examples? Empathy and caring are excellent things and I do care and I do have empathy especially with you and your bf.

In the end, practical solutions need to be thought up. We can't just sit around and sing kumbyya to each other. Eventually, we have the start grinding the gears. What are you premises that you use to derive your conclusion from?

When I read your threads, what I see is that your committing a fallacy in logic called a Hasty Generalization. You're making it seem like All Aspies are this way or all of the issues in a family are solely from the issues of the Aspie. This is what the women of ASpartners at Delphi.com do. I tried to communicate with one of them and it flopped miserably.

Another thing is, you make general claims without giving specifics. I've seen you do this quite a bit. I asked you for specifics of something here and Skillpadde agreed with my asking.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5922934.html#5922934

When you provide specifics, I can give you the fundamental reasoning as to what is going on and give you a more accurate subtext.

You state that what ASDmommy said in her post comes across as anger. How? How do you derive this? What is the logic you base your conclusion on? I detect no anger in her posts and to me she comes across as calm, cool collected, and a voice of reason.

Hi, cubedemon -

I can give examples in the other thread, but didn't because I don't want to call anyone out. It might not feel too good to the person whose thread's being used as an example. If you keep your eyes open, though, you'll see instances of what I was talking about. (And sorry - I'd meant to get back to that thread, just haven't yet.)

As to the other thing, empathy and caring (am at work, will get back to the rest later if I can) - yes, they're often exactly what people need. Specifically, demonstrations of empathy and caring. If you're sitting there feeling it and it isn't communicated, it does the other person no good. I'm smiling at the thought of finding proofs for demonstrations of compassion, empathy, caring, etc. as useful -- this is such a usual and highly-valued thing in the world that the idea of having to prove its value seems very whimsical. In a nutshell, most people find difficult patches of life easier if they feel they aren't alone and that others care about them, particularly if those other people understand what they're going through. Often the first thing that happens when you're going through something difficult, as inmydreams is, is that you find yourself isolated -- just because whatever the problem is demands so much attention, and you don't see others with the same problem all around you. The caring and empathy remove much of that sense of isolation and restore some hope and courage.

Oh, I do have time for this: "When I read your threads, what I see is that your committing a fallacy in logic called a Hasty Generalization. You're making it seem like All Aspies are this way or all of the issues in a family are solely from the issues of the Aspie. This is what the women of ASpartners at Delphi.com do. I tried to communicate with one of them and it flopped miserably."

No, you're misreading me, and reading things in that I haven't written. And this is a chronic problem. Is the problem that you read those statements as generalizations to all aspies unless there is language specifically stating that X is about aspires a, b, and c?

I have never said that all the issues in a family are solely from the issues of an aspie (or from any other single problem). Nor would I. I am afraid you are reading a good deal into what I am saying. And I am beginning to see what the (at least part of) issue is when so many family members and partners of aspies are talking about the problems that AS has brought to their lives.

The funny thing is NTs read into what people say all the time so NTs also have that same issue too when they say what they mean and people read into what they say which aspies have complained about on here. Even aspies are not immune to it even though they are known for not reading between the lines.

I have no frame of reference as to what you're talking about so keeping my eyes open will not work. I shall wait for you to go back to the thread.



First, when you state that it is whimsical this comes across to me that means you're not taking what I say seriously meaning you devalue what you say. I do not appreciate you disrespecting me. I will apologize for being disrespectful myself when I said the kumbyya quote. I get enough of this BS in the "real" world. I don't need that here.

Two, it is not what I said. What I said was empathy and caring is good and I will say not I do believe it is vital. I do have empathy and I do care. I believe solutions eventually need to accompany the empathy. I don't appreciate you twisting my words and stating something I never said by leaving out a vital piece of information. People do this to me in the real world as well. Again, I get enough of that BS in the "real" world. I don't need that here.