Raised by Aspergers parent

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cubedemon, I am not trying to twist your words, and I meant no disrespect. Nor did I take your remark as disrespectful. I said "whimsical" because the use of empathy and caring is so deeply woven into problem-solving that I really have trouble imagining how to take that apart to study it. It's ubiquitous...that's why there are emoticons for it.

Sometimes the caring and empathy are the solution. When someone shows up hurt and demoralized with a difficult problem, sometimes the mere understanding that others care and understand can give the person the courage to do whatever's necessary to solve the practical problem. Even if practical help is offered, it may be useless without tending first to the demoralization. The demoralization can stand in the way of someone's actually taking the practical. Is that clearer?

Reading your exchange, cubedemon, and the link you posted gave me a few different thoughts, some of which may get mis-interpreted, but here it goes.

It never occurred before to me to think of it this way, but based on the other thread you posted, something just clicked in my head. It isn't just that people with ASD are on a spectrum, I think NT people are too. This makes sense that it would be a continuum all along the line, but it never occurred to me to view it that way.

Tarantella64's description of NT relationships on the linked thread sounded very foreign to me, not only from the AS perspective but even based on the NTs I know. My verbage will probably get me in trouble but I don't know how else to word it, so I don't mean it in the "evil" sense of it; it is the only metaphor that fit, but it sounds like (a benign) version of the Borg. I don't think all NTs work that way to that extreme. The NTs I am most comfortable around do not. They are more individualistic than what was described. I am not saying that they don't weigh relationships relative to facts/rules differently and that they get very upset by social disruptions, but not to that extent. I think it varies on inherent biology, environment and culture.

I think when the extreme is depicted as the norm, that makes us seem more alien than we really are. I also think that people who grow up with an emotional connection deficit because of emotionally unavailable parents probably have a stronger need to "connect" than they would normally, and may have a tendency to overly weight relationships more so than they normally would; much as someone who feels materially deprived as a child might seek out expensive items as an adult, to "fill the hole." That I think is part of why this thread is like oil and water. People come on here (often without reading the thread) with unrealistic expectations of what level and type of emotional feedback they will find.

Even in the NT world there is a such thing as being overly emotionally dependent on others and being emotionally "needy." These are not terms coined by aspies; these are terms used by NTs. Moderation is the norm; not either extreme. That is not meant as a criticism (I am trying to weigh my words carefully) but I think people tend to mentally set themselves as the gold standard for what is usual and then get confused/upset when that does not end up being the case.

Edited because I accidentally typed the same word in a row.

Oh my goodness gracious. It is like you read my mind and my thoughts. I was thinking along the same thoughts as well. I was thinking they were a benign version but in addition to what you said I think they're a lighter version. There are various degrees to this. I did mention it because I did not want to offend Tarentella or anyone else. I did not want to make them seem less than human so I kept silent because I did not know how to represent it without sounding arrogant.

I believe you when you state you're not trying to twist my words. It may be part of the communication issue. As an analogy, it's sort of like a DNA helix am I correct? I understand the DNA part but here is example of what I am trying to convey. Let's say someone committed arson at my house and it burned down with all of our valuables.

I agree that empathy and caring is good. How is empathy and caring going to fix my house or bring money to pay for a new one? It could be one already obtained Home Owner's Insurance. If I don't know what to do I would love all of the hugs and the pat on the backs but eventually its time to quit all of that and find solutions. Let's help me to help myself to find solutions.



Here is the thing, what if the person needs help to solve the practical problem? It assumes that I am able to solve this particular problem without any help to do so.



This is where I've butted heads with my family and other people. They want to empathize with me and tell me to stay positive especially when trying to obtain and keep a job. I do appreciate all of the empathy but without practical help like instruction as to how the workplace works, how to correctly interpret the personality tests, what be true to yourself means in relation to the workplace and what the structural hierarchy of the workplace is including where the bottom is does not help one single bit. I don't want you to just sympathize or empathize with me what I desire is answers to my questions and shown how.

Well, that totally makes sense. I think that for most people, both parts are necessary…though tbh, I also think that for a great many people, the empathy/caring are actually more important than solving the problem. What they mostly want to know is that people care and that they aren't alone. Next to that, any problem seems kind of minor, or unfair, etc. and they'll spend ages not dealing with it. Until they're forced to, usually with lots of help and support. Then they feel great about having fixed things -- and they'll really like it that someone else, or a bunch of people, were in there with them doing it together.

I get what you're talking about, but I think you probably aren't getting what you need from family/others because they don't understand how to translate what they know into any useful form for you. It'd be different if, say, you didn't know how to fix your 1993 Taurus. That's something they know how to deal with and could give advice about. And -- going back to your problem -- it'd feel very rude to them not to remain encouraging, because they imagine that not having support *or* practical success would be just terrible.

No, no, I kind of expected that this would happen. I don't know how to explain it other than to say that the dehumanized chill of the Borg isn't anything like the sense of connection that comes with community. But yeah, there's a degree of "corporate mind", so to speak. I also understand the suspicion that people who lacked and crave connection go for it more, but actually I find it doesn't work that way. People who grow up in massively connected, warm families and communities and experience all that love and bonding have the hardest time, I think, when separated from it. They just feel awful and will go back home as soon as they can. The kids grow up and all see a lot of each other, there's a lot of family and community events -- it's the center of their lives. Some people who were deprived in childhood sure do seek out big warm communities, but others are uncomfortable with them.

And sure, of course NT is a spectrum -- why wouldn't it be? Some people are incredibly sociable and diplomatic, and get very antsy when not surrounded by people; others more solitary, but still sociable; others have no need for much connection at all.

Yes, NTs sit on a spectrum, just as ASD individuals do. Plus all the variations and scatters that surround the spectrum.

And men are from Mars and women are from Venus. Or, in this conversation, it sounds like men/ASD individuals are from Mars and women/NTs are from Venus. Anyone else see the parallels in this conversation to that age old convention, "women want their husbands to just show they understand and care but men are wired to try to come up with solutions?"

In any conversation or connection, JHMO, it doesn't really matter which way you approach issues IF, big if, the other person understands and accepts your approach. The person with the problem isn't wrong for wanting what they want in the way of empathy and types of response, but if the person they are communicating with is driven to find solutions and not just give out hugs, shouldn't the person with the problem be SPECIFICALLY ASKING for what they need, expressing it clearly, instead of blaming the other person for responding in the way that is natural to them? That is what marriage counselors will tell you: understand the differences so you can meet each other half way. BOTH SIDES have to give a little and accept the natural differences.

Well -- to a point, I think.

To a lot of people, being bald and explicit about what they want feels absolutely rude, and in their culture, it is. And while people can train themselves against their culture and upbringing, I don't know that it ever stops feeling rude and wrong. Here's an example: I teach a class, and I ran an anonymous survey, mid-semester, to see how we were doing and see if we need to adjust anything. The first two questions on the survey are "I feel welcome in this class" and "I feel my views are welcome in this class." The interesting thing is that all the students feel their views are welcome, but a few of the students feel that they themselves are not always welcome. Now why is that? One explanation a friend offered: I'm in a polite, rather stolid, and indirect place that isn't particularly verbal. But I am from a very direct, emotive, and communication-heavy place. The students know their communication is always welcome, but some of them feel overwhelmed by what feels to them brutal directness and a conversational style they're unaccustomed to.

I know that if I hadn't asked this question, I would *never have known* that anyone there was at all uncomfortable. It isn't done, here, to complain in that manner. Can I push them to be more direct? Sure -- but it'll make them uncomfortable. So…it's my classroom, but it's their world, so I ask the question in a way they can answer. It's now up to me to find out whether the problem is my manner, the range of topics we're covering (do they feel out of their depths, etc.), or something else. Maybe I accidentally glared at them! Honestly, I may never find out what the problem is/was. But at least now I know there's a bit of a problem.

The thing is, that indirectness and politeness aren't just for show. They're part of the fabric of this culture and they allow a lot to happen. So to say, "they should learn to be different"…I dunno, it seems to work for them, and in reality, a lot of them will never leave this area. So is it really a problem for them?

In reality, too, "I need hugs, not solutions" works great if the response is, "Sorry! Here's hugs" and not so much "I don't see why you should need hugs. The whole idea irritates me. Justify your need for hugs."

I have the exact opposite issue where not only do I not view it as "justifying the need for hugs," I go one step further and think it is rude to demand hugs, which is how what you are saying comes through my parser. You have a right to demand hugs from parents, and you are justified in resenting that not being forthcoming. You do not have a right to demand hugs on the Internet and actually expect them to flow forth simply because they were requested. True, sincere empathy comes when it is felt, not when it is demanded.

When people come on here angry at their parents and it appears to some of us as though we are being treated as surrogate punching bags, (regardless of whether you agree with this assessment or not) empathy is not likely to be forthcoming, no matter how impatient the demand. That is human nature, not aspie nature.

Some people are more capable of ignoring that anger than others. It is not one of my strengths, and I am OK with that b/c I think it has served me well in allowing me to avoid IRL toxic people. I am sure there are cons that DW_a_Mom could point out, but I need some kind of radar, and I am not going to drop one of the tools that has served me well over the years against real life bullies. I do not believe in returning hate with love, and you may not interpret what is often posted here as hate or bigotry, and that is your right, just as much as it is my right to interpret otherwise.

That said, when people come on here with respect for the denizens, tell their story, as anecdotes and to the extent that correlations are made with autism, they are respectful, not over the top and do not appear to be bigoted, I do not approach it that way. It does not have to be roses and sunshine, in the least, it just has to be done in a way that is respectful of us and this place. Even so, the empathy I express is whatever honest empathy there is, and if you want to attribute that to an aspie overvaluation of honesty vs. feelings, you can go ahead.

Edited to add: Making a statement like, "I am just wanting to vent," or "I am just wanting support," is a request and not a demand, unless the person gets indignant or whiny about not getting "enough" support or a good enough quantity of it. I just wanted to clarify and make sure that it was clear that asking for something is different from demanding it.

Last edited by ASDMommyASDKid on 25 Feb 2014, 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I am a huggable aspie but when I'm trying to find solutions I need help to find solutions, not hugs, nor pity, nor kisses. Same thing goes for clarifying and understanding things.

Me, too. So is my husband, so was my dad, and so is my son. We are not all averse to snuggles.

But yeah, solutions rock.

Honestly, I've realized I don't follow your logic (maybe I'm just tired or distracted) but am left with the distinct feeling that you seem to have defaulted, in your post, to saying "this is the way society is, there are reasons for it, so figure it out and conform." Which I may be wrong about.

I've written and rewritten multiple explanations on why I disagree with that, but have decided to just keep it simple: you've created too much of a burden for those with ASD, and that is not fair. You cannot expect anyone to go beyond what they are capable of just because social construct favors it. You set them up to fail. You can't get what you "want" from other people, you can only get what they actually have to give, and insisting they have what they do not have, or that they have to conform for any host of good reasons, will never change that. It is a battle that cannot be won, and that is only sure to result in deep casualties on both sides.

But adjust expectations, understand there is value in our differences, and there can be a much better answer.

Edited to add: there is a difference, of course, when there is an unequal relationship, like parent - underage child, or teacher - student. The person of "power" or experience must do the work.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 27 Feb 2014, 5:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Hi...ASDmommy, I don't really know what to say. You've taken my post and driven it to a place very far from where it started. I can't stop you from putting an overlay of your own meaning on it, rather than reading mine, but I can tell you that that's what you're doing.

I am not saying that anyone should "demand hugs", or that it's okay to do such a thing. Nor did I say that inmydreams came here and demanded it. I am saying that it is normal to expect that on an Internet forum to do with parenting, when one discusses traumatic and difficult things surrounding parenting, others will respond with sympathy and hugs, and, sometimes, empathy. Because that is the overwhelming norm. It is not normal here. But perhaps inmydreams didn't know that, and here she's shared something quite intimate and got little support on what had seemed to her a supportive thread.

As far as how posts about AS parents feel to you: I would ask that you stick to the words that are actually there, and before assuming the person is a bigot who is simply there to be vile and hateful towards all people with AS, reread those words and see if the person has actually said he or she is talking about all people with AS. Or has made generalizations about AS that cannot be supported. (Obviously some generalizations can; if they couldn't, it wouldn't ever have been a diagnosis.) If you cannot find textual proof of that -- words in a row, not bits from here and there that you interpret and stitch together -- then the person is probably talking about *a specific experience with a specific person who has AS*. Not about you. Not about the set of all people with AS. I can tell you that when I found this thread, it would never have occurred to me that my telling specific stories about my specific father would be interpreted as an assault on all people with AS, or that I was here to seek out people with AS and use them as punching bags for things someone else did. Honestly, if I were after that kind of thing, I'm sure I could've found a much more direct way to do it. (And I'm not, because it would be shocking and vile.)

I don't think that when people post here about their parents, they're looking for sympathy or empathy from those with AS. The thread title, after all, is "Raised by an AS parent" or some such, not "People with AS will apologize for your AS mom" or "Attack an aspie and feel better about your terrible dad." They're just vastly relieved (and they say so) to have found others who understand them and their experience: other children of parents with AS who have experienced very similar things. That's why you hear all those lists of bad things that happened -- people are comparing with each other, and saying yes, this happened in my family too, and this, and this! And in general, I think, on a thread like this -- on any such thread -- the people who turn up are going to be the ones who've been hurt. People who're doing fine don't usually look for support threads and fora. So what percentage of kids with AS parents are represented here? No idea. Could be 80%, could be .08%. In these specific cases, though, unless the poster seems floridly nuts, I think you have to take both the stories and the expressed relief at finding others in the same boat as describing realities -- realities that are, in the end, not about you, even if they are about some other people with AS.

Like I said, I think this thread would do better off-site. But it'd have to be protected from people who insisted on misreading it, getting unnecessarily irate about it, and derailing a helpful conversation, and I think that's unfortunate.

You really couldn't be more wrong. Wrong in creating a false dichotomy between "WPers" and "people" (guess what, when someone joins and writes a post, they are as much a WPer as anyone else!) and wrong about who I have objected to. Most of the posters here don't do it and they have posted and people have responded without rancor. But then there are the categorical statements about aspies--those very few posts have drawn an angry response, and rightly so. If you don't see this, you are ignoring the actual content of this thread.


I wish you would do a tone check on yourself--when you are being patronizing, it should be a good indicator to you that you are profoundly wrong and have really misjudged the situation. The problem is that you think this thread is about your issues and your dad. It's not. From the OP on, it's not about you.

But here's a reality check on the generalization thing.


Those statements are not about answersfinally's parents they are about all aspies. "Adults with Asperger should not have children." Not some. Not "my parents." Understand?

Answersfinally did back down very slightly after people responded negatively to this (as they should), but just a little bit:


So, here it's not ALL, but only "most" except "I stand by what I said in earlier " which was, you know, categorical. Directed at all aspies.

Then on page 22 we have:

A charming statement in support of anti-aspergers eugenics! Is it "future aspies who are my parents?" Or maybe "future aspies who are like my parents in that they were incredibly nasty to their children?" No. It's "hopefully we can prevent aspies from existing." That is deeply hateful, totally general remark. It's aimed at me, my parents and my son, because we are part of the group to be prevented. If you don't see that, you are having a profound failure of empathy and theory of mind.

On page 23 you wrote:
And when you said "fewer boo-boos, you meant fewer aspies. Not specific individuals, but all of us. There should be fewer of us in the world. That's kind of general, don't you see? DW was right to hear this as being about her son. There is something broken in you that you don't see that.

on page 32:
Once again, this is not about some specific bad parents, it's about all parents with aspergers. Generalized.

The fact is that these few instances are troubling, but represent a small proportion of the posts on this thread. Nevertheless, these inflammatory posts are the ones that draw negative responses.


You know, you don't actually see that reaction in this thread.

Really go back and check.

The only places where people say "that's not AS" are places where someone is ascribing to AS behaviors that are not symptomatic of AS--there are descriptions that sound like OCPD, Narcissistic PD, Borderline PD, and Somewhere on the Schizoid spectrum... That's not a denial of anyone's experience.


I don't see the validity of anyone's experience challenged. What has been challenged is the nastiness they carry forward to ALL ASPIES as group. The eugenics talk. That's just not OK. Not at all.

This thread is actually very respectful and supportive. The preponderance of posts have none of the nastiness in the few posts I highlighted above. That stuff is really wrong anywhere, but particularly wrong here, for reasons that have been thoroughly discussed already.

You and Jenufa repeatedly complain about positive comments about parents with Aspergers here, as you put it " the Aspergers'-is-not-a-problem-and-is-great propaganda wardrums" and claim that somehow this thread should be about experiences of bad aspie parents--parents more like your parents. But take a look at the OP again--



Note that Beanicer doesn't say "this thread is exclusively for NTs to share negative experiences of aspie parents."



The OP has a GREAT RELATIONSHIP with her aspie father--and this was right there on page 1! From the original poster.

There is a lot to discuss about the problems autism can introduce into parenthood--and a lot of helpful sharing and support that children who had a hard time being raised by aspie parents can do. There is no place in that discussion for the kind of bigotry that says we can't be good parents and shouldn't exist.

I hear that you and some others suffered terribly at the hands of aspie parents. The thread is full of comments by other posters who had positive experiences with their aspie parents. No one's experience needs to be denied here.

Edited to add, it is clear that there are patterns to the difficulties that autistic traits in parents can create in their relationships with their children. Exploring those patterns is a good thing.

Last edited by Adamantium on 26 Feb 2014, 1:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

So as to not derail this thread I decided to spawn a new thread that highlight certain issues that are out there.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt252990.html

I think you need some social skill training. (I do not not know if you need it b/c you are the daughter and the aunt of an aspie and you have a genetic component of AS or if you are just an NT that needs some social skills advice, and it does not matter which it is.) If you truly believe this: (from http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5922934.html#5922934 courtesy of cubeDemon) you need to practice what you preach.



Then maybe you should re-tune your "elastic bands" and strive for a little harmony here. (I know you are not "bonded" to us but if social upset is intrinsically disturbing to you, in general, you would not be so quick to start it here.)

1) Instead of continually telling us we are misreading you, why do you not type clearer?. If you go to France and your French is bad, and they do not understand you, why would you immediately blame the French and not yourself? As Big_League_Girl said previously, everyone is taught to read into things. It is a skill aspies are told to acquire so do not be surprised when we exercise these abilities with you. Subtext is part of the content, yes?

2)This thread was in a state of peace and calm, when you came in here on your high horse, criticizing the comments made to Inmydreams, primarily for not have enough outpourings of empathy like the "mommy boards" do. First off the "mommy" boards are not as you categorize them. I have lurked on a few back in the day, and suggest you try wandering into a discussion on breastfeeding or circumcision or child discipline techniques or sleep training and see how wonderful, warm and supportive they are. Secondly, let's pretend you are right for a second. and they are a warm-womb of comfort and support. If that were so, these people who come wandering into out midst would go there, instead, and would be welcomed and empathy provided to all. If that is true let us know which mommy board to point them to and I will be glad to oblige.

This was the first part of Inmydreams' post:


She was respectful and grateful for the thread's existence and appreciative of both the positive and negative on here. Yes, the positive and negative. You heard me. She got a lovely, constructive response from DW-a_mom. And how did you respond? By you misreading her post and deciding it was cruel, and posting that. And saying we don't provide enough empathy. That is metaphorically demanding hugs for people, perhaps not yourself, but demanding virtual hugs, nonetheless. If you want to write out something more empathetic, then you can do that without criticizing the "unempathetic" response of others.

Then what did you do next? You dredged up a post Adamantium made in reference to a completely different post and attacked him for taking things personally, when he was completely on point with the criticism of the particular post he was criticizing.

This is stirring the pot, not creating the harmony that supposedly NTs value. So do you value harmony most of all or do you not?



3) You also mentioned that you feel we are seeing everything through a bigot-detecting lens and over labeling things as bigotry. I disagree, and Adamantium made the point better than I could, so I will borrow his argument instead of writing my own. See his post for this. In addition, I will add that you should not be surprised that those who face bigotry are apt to be sensitive to its presence. Perhaps you should consider this as you strive for harmony.

I am also going to add a very imperfect analogy.

Imagine that AS/ASD is an elephant in a world of blind men. A subset of people come here to describe the elephant, but all they know about it is its butt. (Bear with me) We try to explain that there is a head and tusks and a really great and interesting trunk, but all this particular subset wants to do is talk about the elephant butt b/c either an elephant sat on them or maybe they just did not like the smell of its poop.

They don't like it when we mention that other animals have butts, too, not just elephants. They respond that this may be so, but an elephant butt is huge, not like a kitty cat's butt or a puppy's. Then we mention rhinos, maybe a rhino sat on them, how does the blind man know it was an elephant? And so on. Can you really not understand why we do this? The larger world does not know us or understand us. All they see is when an elephant's butt makes the news.

It is not all about hurt feelings, either. Much of it is practical. Education is a large part of why we clarify and correct. My son was diagnosed 2 years later than he should have been, in part because his pediatrician didn't know someone AS/ASD could be snuggly (my son is a cuddler--He is affectionate) and the county didn't know as/asd kids could be precocious readers. (My son is hyperlexic and read at 2 yrs old, but no, he was too smart to have ASD) These stereotypes hurt people in real life. Not to mention the bullies who are using these differences to be cruel, not maintain social harmony for the group by ousting the outsider, or whatever it is you think people are doing. (I am not saying no rejection of aspies have to do with maintaining social cohesiveness, but I do not think it is the main reason.) NTs can be cruel just like anyone else.

Edited for the usual difficulties I have with the quotes, clarity, and typing.