Physical punishment

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No, I spank my kids, or rather I did when they were little and it was called for. You want to say I beat them? Well, you are a couple continents away and also not worth my time or I'd show you what beating actually is. How many kids you raised? Tell me that before you start in on me. I'm a bit sick of your self righteous s**t there, Sinead O'Connor, and rarely read you. I shouldn't have this time.

You would physically assault Schneekugel if there was less distance between you and if you had extra time? Or is that hyperbole? In either case, I think this mode of expression is suggestive. Do you often employ threats in ordinary communication?



Thank you for expressing this, BenderRodriguez. I am encouraged to continue, though I have no doubt I will irritate somebody! I can't seem to avoid this outcome.

Looking at the more vociferous responses on this thread, EmileMulder, I find that Willard responded quite strongly to your opening, although you did not cover the same emotive material that I touched on. Perhaps the approach needs fine tuning?

In any case, I thought people might enjoy two rather good related videos:
The first looks at the issue alternatively through Swedish and Singaporean eyes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk1bn40H9ps

And, with the caveat that correlation does not equal causation--this is a report on a study with interesting results:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPFz2n1Qt7I

This could be interpreted in two different ways. More than likely OliveOilMom was saying that she would show Schneekugel photographs of people or actual people who were beaten in OOM's mind.

I think 12% is pretty low and they are in the minority. I don't agree when he said it won't take long for the kid to not care if he is spanked. I cared, I hated getting hit just like I hated getting yelled at or being sent to time out or to my room and not being allowed to ride my bike or have dessert or play with my dolls or use the computer or have friends over or leave the yard. The man is generalizing and every kid is different. I have seen parents say online how ineffective spanking is for their child so they don't use it on them. I wouldn't use it on a PTSD child who has trauma over psychical abuse so hitting them would trigger that flashback or use it on someone who is very hyper sensitive to pain because a little sting that lasts a few seconds might hurt a lot for them. That one father in the first video had an infant daughter ad she didn't look to be a year old and I was thinking "who the hell would spank a kid that young? It always appalls me when I hear someone would actually spank an infant" and I did do what the father did instead; move stuff up to higher places, pull my kid away from the books. I also put cardboard over my book case and put chairs in front of the dresser to keep him out, kept up gates. I never had a need for all these child safety locks you put on drawers and stuff.

What I find condescending about these videos is when they keep saying there is alternative ways.. Duh, we all know this and we do use them. I want to tell them to stop assuming parents do don't alternative ways when they spank their kids and stop assuming that is the only method they use. This isn't the 1950's or my grandparents times like they make it out to be. I keeping wondering if the studies are true, then why haven't so many people grown up to be aggressive or violent and why aren't lot of them in prison? That may be true for some people but not for everyone just like not all abused children grow up to be violent or criminals or child abusers and they grow up to be fine adults instead and live a successful life and be good parents.

That's thought that is what she meant too except I thought of her posting youtube videos of a kid being beaten. I have been tempted to do the same so people will see what parents do not do when they spank their kids and that is not what a spanking is about. But I don't know where to find such videos, I have only come across them through links which are buried on childfree forums and I can't be arsed to do a search for a video to show people who think spanking is beating a child and keep lumping us all together ASSuming that is what we do to our kids.

I was going to work yesterday and I was on the train and there were these kids in the back and they were talking. The boy was doing something like being rowdy and jumpy and the mother slapped him in the butt and it got his attention and he stopped after she had kept telling him over and over to stop before slapping his behind. But she barely even hit him and it was one swat and it was like a pat in the butt and he had on a thick winter coat so I doubt he felt anything except for his mother's hand touching him there. I wouldn't even consider that a spanking and I would be shocked if anyone called that abuse or violence when she barely even hit him.

Interesting. I thought this was a standard threatening construction, but I have certainly misinterpreted people many, many times before. Thanks for pointing that out.

Could she not have touched him in another way to get his attention? I see what you are saying, and it is ridiculous to call a tap a blow... but the definitions are tricky. How much energy can be in the impact before it crosses the line? Is the parent capable of judging this with any precision?

I thought this was also interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RxLJFIhW6Y

You could say they carefully selected examples that would support their case, but I have seen this dynamic many times in the US: the parents slap and sometimes hit the child until the child becomes larger and stronger than the parent in mid-puberty. Sometimes there is a moment when the child hits mom or dad back with slightly greater force than was used on him and the parents are forced to reconsider the power balance.

It seems to me that it is silly to make no differentiation between degrees of violence directed by parents against children, but also silly to deny that spanking is violence, albeit controlled violence.

What I enjoyed seeing in the Singaporean video looking at Sweden was the way each group of parents was certain that their approach was correct and necessary. They are going with what they know, even when there is evidence to suggest that there are other equally effective ways to handle those moments that they think require smacking a child with a palm or cane.

It seems to me that there is tremendous cultural inertia in this and it would take a sustained and very deep reform campaign to change it.

League girl - you made a point about getting used to spanking (or not in your own case). I thought I'd pick up that topic.

In my own work with kids, I've found that a differential in expression is very useful. For myself, I try to be cheerful and highly engaged. I also use exaggerated affect with younger kids. This is my defaullt mode for a well-behaved attentive kid. My goal is for my presence and attention itself to be rewarding and motivating. When a kid misbehaves my tone immediately shifts to bland and neutral, and my face shifts to one that looks bored or mildly annoyed. My eyes lose focus, and I avoid eye contact with the child. When I speak to the child it is in simple if-then statements or commands. As soon as the kid starts listening to me or behaving reasonably, my tone lightens and I start moving toward that positive state.

child is very well-behaved - I project enthousiasm, energy, eye contactb(assuming they like it), focused attention.

Chile is reasonably behaved - I'm pleasant and reasonably attentive.

Child misbehaves - I am a cool and boring robot.


So there is a differential there. I bring this up because I see this sort of thing in parents and teachers too. I think the best teachers are the ones who can quickly shift between that warm tone and the no-nonsense one.

One thing that I think may happen in some families is that the differentiation isn't quite so obvious in the parent's tone of voice. Without that, it may not be clear to a child where the actual boundaries are, or whether they've crossed them. For example, in a house where shouting is common, a parent may shout at a child, and it may not be clear to that child whether they are really in trouble or not. The parent may then rely on spanking to punctuate this, and make it clear - the child has crossed a line.

Sticking with the concept of a differential, some parents can get away with just the strategy I laid out 99% of the time, and on very rare occasions, may tell their child "I am very disappointed". I've seen children get very emotional because they were worried their parents would be disappointed. In this sort of scenario, saying "I'm disappointed" is so out of the norm that it becomes "the nuclear option".

Other families may use spanking as a nuclear option, in which case it may have the same emotional effect as disappointment in the above example.

Still in other families spanking may become so common that it is perceived as the norm by the child. Let's face it, children can adapt to a lot of things. So spanking will only be a mild deterrent, while "I'm disappointed" seems comical to the child.. And the nuclear option may be something bordering on abuse or worse.

I think most of us can agree that the latter situation is undesirable. And while intuition may encourage a parent who is approaching that situation to try to win that race to the bottom with their child; it is also possible to try to focus attention on the differential. Instead of making it more obvious when you're mad, maybe try to make it more obvious that you're pleased. Try to find excuses to be pleased (tiny things the kid did right) or even manufacture situations where the kid has to do the right thing (because it is so easy), and then be pleased. Tie in other kinds of reinforcement to that pleasure - special treats or rewards for being such a good kid. If you can succeed at this:

1) you will begin to repair your relationship with your child, if it is damaged.
2) your child will value your positive opinion and work for it, not just to avoid punishment.
3) That differential will shift toward the positive, and you won't see the need to use spanking as much or at all. (I say "see the need", because I don't believe that there is a need...but I recognize that not everyone agrees).

I assume that most parents do some version of this to some extent. But just as an experiment, try exaggerating the positive side of that differential for a week. Try to notice and praise your child's accomplishments as they happen more often than you did last week. Do it for a week, and see what happens.

Adamantium - I hope you appreciate the way I've phrased this part - My behaviorist mind could rewrite it all with reinforcement and punishment, but I thought I'd try to put it in a more accessible style.

Devil's Advocate Quibble:

My son is 8, and autistic, and has a terrible time with tone and affect. I have always used it, but have had to accompany it with words that convey the same meaning or he would never get it. This year is the first year he has started asking what my tone means. "Mommy are you ________________?" He is in the ballpark, but often still not right. Not all kids pick up on this, so using it is more of a long-term educational strategy than a short term indicator to the child.

There is noone forcing you to read it, so stop again to seek yourself excuses and blaming others for stuff, that you decided on your own to do. First its your kids and not you, deciding if you want to beat them, and now its me and not you deciding what posts you want to read. There are people annoying me in the forum as well, so I simply dont read their posts. Is there anything, that you are yourself responsible for? I am pretty sure, if someone came to your house, and spanked you with a bushstick, as you have described yourself in the forum to spank your kids, that you did not think yourself: "Woohooo, everythink is fine. So I did not got beaten. I was just a little spanked with a bushstick, so everything is fine, and I have no right to vent about it, else I would be a self righteous s**t Sinead O Connor. So ok, everyone. If you want to spank someone, come to my house and spank my ass, I feel totally fine with it!" ^^

Nope until now, the little one under my heart is too small to decide if I want to spank him or not. But I think it was pretty stupid of me, to decide to do pregnancy and all that stuff, only to bear a kid, that I will be forced to give to the youth-office, only because of me deciding to spank it out of fun. And because of thats happening very rarely, I do think, that educating a kid without beating it, should be managable in general, or else we had tons of kids taken by the youth-offices.

This doesn't seem like a devil's advocate position at all, but a very realistic comment on EmileMulder's description of using "changing tone" as a sign of disapproval.

So, it is likely that for many ASD kids, something more transparent and unambiguous than changing tone would be needed.

It is often the failure to recognize this kind of issue of tone that is misread as willful misbehavior, obstinacy or an anti-social impulse and people with ASD are punished at all levels for not recognizing those signals.

But, is it rational to propose that if changes in tone of voice do not communicate, some sort of smack or blow will be more effective?

I don't think so, but again, I am not a spanker. Based on my in-laws (aside from the cultural aspect) I think they do think it is a superior disincentive and that for the little ones that is the only way to make them understand something is not OK. Kind of like how rats are given shocks if they go the wrong way in a maze, or something.

They also don't have the time/inclination to baby proof or watch carefully, so it is the expedient thing. If it works, then it gets reinforced to them that it works, and obviously it works better with toddlers than talking to them. You can't talk to a rat, and you can't talk to a child too young to understand much receptive language and even afterwards when they can, it is a harder approach.

Any harm that might be done by the milder versions is too subtle to show up on their radars, and if the kids grow up and believe it also, it reinforces and perpetuates it even more. My husband and SIL don't feel they were long-term harmed by it and while my husband does not remember it fondly, his sister looks at it with an odd type of pride. Although my husband and I do not spank, my SIL sure does.

I am not justifying it. I am just putting that out there as an explanation of sorts.

Edited to add: I agree that the expectation to understand tone and body language is very harmful. I had this problem all the time, last year, which was why I mentioned it. We also had the flip side, too, when my son's tone or body language was not "respectful." Even people who think they know things expect eye-contact, and it was frustrating that I had to keep explaining that he could listen or make eye-contact but not do both at the same time.

Being a parent, I find it's impossible to reason with a toddler. I have kept hearing on herein the past how parents "control" their kids and punish them and were against giving out consequences but none of those members had children. I have seen a few say on here how you can't reason with a two year old or with a four year old. Having my own, they're right, you can't reason with them. I can explain to my son why he can't do things and why he should do something and he still won't listen because they don't understand so that is why parents slap their hands or give them a swat on their behind or give them a time out because it teaches them to not do it or that happens. Then when kids to start to understand and can be reasoned with, then they are too old for a spanking. That is around kindergarten.

It may feel like we are being controlling because we are always telling our kids what to do and what not to do but we have to remember they are young and don't understand so we can't reason with them yet so all we can do is keep doing what we have to.

Some parents feel they have to give a kid a little pain when they are about to do something dangerous like putting their fingers in the sockets or trying to put their hand on the hot stove or giving them a swat in the butt to startle them when they run out in the street or take off while others may just keep them out of the room or redirect them or run and grab them and pull them away. Some just slap their hand when they touch things they aren't supposed to touch like when I was a baby, if I touched anything above the first bookshelf, my hand got swat so I learned to not touch anything above it except for the bottom or my hand gets hit. I can remember when we got a new fridge in our new house, it was one of those fridges with a ice making machine and you can get water from it too with ice and it was on the freezer door. My brother would get his hand slapped for playing with the thing you press the cup on for water. All that did was if I wanted to play with it, all I had to do was get my brother to do it for me and he would get the blame if mom catches him doing it and he would be the one with his hand slapped, not me. When my son wouldn't stop pushing buttons on the TV set, I put cardboard over them and taped it to the TV set so he couldn't play with them wrecking them. Surprisingly, some parents are against parents putting stuff over their TV buttons and closing off things because they feel the kid has to explore. I guess some parents feel they have to sacrifice their stuff for it to get ruined so their baby can explore.

This make perfect sense. I think this is similar to the cultural situation described in that Australian 60 Minutes.

My belief is that this will evolve over time. The culture is generally moving in the direction of an increasing respect for human rights, as evidenced in things like women's suffrage, the end of systematic, legally enshrined racial discrimination, the recognition of gay rights, etc.

I believe there is a rational ethical basis for this and it will continue. Just as we live in a very different and much improved world than our parents and grandparents, so our children and grandchildren will live in a better world than this. A steady reduction in cultural approval of violence toward children will be part of that, I think.

But it will take time.

I think the cardboard thing was really smart! We just tried to put as much stuff, high out reach as we could and did the usual child-proofing for everything else. I did not know people actually say that you should not child-proof things. I was under the impression you were supposed to child-proof so that the things they got their hands on would be safe and not easily trashable. This way you could let them explore without constantly telling them, "no" all the time. We had certain things we could not figure out how to child proof, and we just had to be vigilant until we could figure out workarounds for those few things I could not child proof.