Raised by Aspergers parent

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One of my son's ungoing issues is impulse control, which when mixed with perseveration, often includes not hearing people telling him to stop when he's hurting or upsetting them. He can indeed come across as a bully at times.

That is an extrememly good question. I would be interested to hear the responses of others to this question.

I genuinely belive that both of my parents are on the spectrum, but I don't think that I would have made the connection if my Mum hadn't watched a program on tv about autism and said that it explained a lot about our family. She was the one who brought the idea of autism to the fore. This was before the internet was widely used and it wasn't until 10 years later that I started to do some research online and find communities like this.

I felt that autism fit the bill because my parents have theory of mind issues and they need to be told things in a specific way because they take things very literally. They have other issues that are not related to autism, some stem from how they were brought up and the kinds of families they come from. It probably didn't help that they were misunderstood by their own parents and so developed co-morbid problems that are not directly sypmtoms of autism

I've got to say that I get on a lot better with my parents now that I am in my 30s. I'm not sure what changed. I think we all just understand our lives so much better now. For me there was light at the end of the tunnel.

Yes.
And I think the same thing applies to spouses, and is the reason for a lot of the hatred spewed on ASPartners.

I think many people with bad parents (Aspie or NT) tend to pick partners that are very similar to the bad parent in an effort to get it right. They want to win that type of person over to show themselves they are loveable.

ASD Mommy and Willaful, I have responses for you and I am not sure if I'm clicking on the right buttons so, I'll put it into a couple of paragraphs here on this post.... still figuring out how to work this forum thingy.

ASD Mommy: You are right about a lot of things. I think he wasn't able to read my behavioral (screaming, struggling) and verbal (my confusing 1/2 giggling scared to death cries and also yelling stop!! !) cues, so he proceeded to enjoy himself tickling me.

I also think my father is both AS and sadistic. I'm coming to terms that there are parts of this that he is not responsible for such as his inability to read cues, his impulse-control issues, and his awkward social decisions such as trying to play tickle monster when we are in a restaurant or something like that and it is too rambunctious for the environment. But, he is also a very hurt individual who was bullied himself by a sadistic older brother and public school kids who picked on him because he was in the special needs class. He had built up aggression to take out.

Regardless of the weaknesses of Aspergers, I am coming to believe that he had a very deliberate mean streak. The low impulse control contributed toward him expressing passive aggressive aggression. He felt the need to victimize someone (a child being an easy target). He was smart enough to attempt to do it under the guise of "tickling" so that others would be more forgiving of his actions and he could have the excuse of "I couldn't tell she didn't like it. I thought she was squirming because she was happy, " and he could play dumb. Is he dumb, or is he just truly clueless??? I am coming to believe that there isn't a straight line between the times that he was playing dumb and he truly was clueless, but that they interweave. I'm thinking that he is an Aspie with legitimate and deliberate anger, abuse, and aggressive issues.

Willafull: Exactly, that is exactly what happened a lot. There is a part of this where he didn't seem to realize that he was inflicting pain. His ability to determine when the restraint and pressure was too much, didn't seem to register to him. He used the force he would use for wrestling with a grown man, on a child's thin tender frame. The ability to temper his physical power (be gentle) was not something he could calculate. This made him a bumbling buffoon in many ways.

It also came out in tone of voice. His inability to temper the strength of his voice was awkward also. He was loud, rude, and sarcastic at times when the situation did not call for such a strong reaction. Then at other times, he was meek, shy, and mouse-like. When asked to speak up a little, he'd yell angrily out of frustration rather than just merely elevating the volume of his voice a little, yet keeping a nice and polite tone. Uggh!

As a child subjected to this I took the blame constantly, thinking that it was my fault that Daddy didn't understand he was hurting me. I took the blame that Daddy had to yell at me for me to hear him. Another weird thing he'd do is rile me up, get me all wild, loud, and hyper in the house (and I thought we were having a good fun time) and then all of sudden just instantly want to shut me up and turn me off. At those times, he'd just call for my mom to "take care of the situation" and he'd instantly just reject me. I'd be left there disappointed, confused, and wondering what I had done to make him mad again. Who knows, perhaps, I had stepped on his toe or something and rather than him having the ability to communicate to me that his toe was hurting and I needed to start calming down, he'd just jerk up and leave the room, call for my mom to handle me, and walk away. Weird. Just weird. The ability to communicate boundaries all along the way, simply did not exist. He was hot or cold, no in between.

ASD Mommy: I think that sometimes I want to put blame on AS because I've given up on my father being held accountable. It's almost a denial of responsibility on his part. It's also a denial on my part because after all I don't want to believe that my father could really have been that abusive, mean, and diabolical. I want to believe that I was loved and couldn't possibly have been hated that much. Although, now a days, he's made it very clear to everyone that he hates me and I'm a big disappointment to him. And I hear him loud and clear, have declined from his life, and left him alone to isolate (how convenient for someone who doesn't like to be around other people anyways). He lacks the ability to forgive me for things I did when I was 17 years old. I'm 43 now. If we were to have a conversation with him today, nothing in my life that is good would matter, only what I did when I was 17. Is it comprehension problems that keep him stuck there? Maybe? Is it a willful, deliberate, rigid, stubbornness, that keeps him stuck there? Maybe? Maybe, it's a twisting (undefined intermingling) of both, in which I will never be able to differentiate.

My mother is a saint. I don't think she knew what she was getting into and what she'd be left with as he has grown older. They have an admirable love story. He was in the special needs class and struggled with reading and writing (dyslexia) and she had volunteered to tutor special needs kids because she was a nice, good girl, with a caring heart. Her jock boyfriend was kind of boring to her, but my dad and his quirky ways made her laugh. Back then, he was nice and not full of hate and meanness. He was also sensitive and authentic as they moved along in their relationship from the focus on academics to a focus on building a friendship. She saw his awkwardness socially, but she also had appreciation for how "raw" he was. He would to charming things such as sing songs to her in front of people and he didn't seem to care who was watching and making fun of him. Sweet. He was high functioning enough to work in an auto repair shop and hold a job. He was a steady provider. The family saw in him what she saw in him and they all just kind of tolerated his social awkwardness, such as telling jokes when no one wanted to laugh at one liner jokes anymore. In the beginning, he was a very playful father. But, he stayed like a kid and I grew up. And as the grumpy, old man, syndrome has come into play, more and more, the meaner and more isolating he is. Now, he spends a good 16 hours a day cocooned on the couch with blankets over his head, in the dark, shut down, and suffering from migraines (or could that be the excuse he is using??). It's very sad. My mom did the best she could raising me and keeping supervision of him, but there were slips. She's a saint but not a super hero. I hope that helps give you some insight as to why someone would hook up with someone who has deficiencies and would not be able to be a fully responsible and participating parent. I think we get into things and don't realize, until we are well into it, that our mate is a child also.

Thinking about all of this and re-reading what I've written, I think my dad has a type of DNA. Ya know how a strand of DNA twirls around and has different elements weaved in. I think (these days) he's a mix of Aspergers, PTSD, diabolical abuse, mental abuse, emotionally disturbed, developmental delays, dyslexia, a cocooned dying butterfly, and a comedian. = Crazy making!! !

It sounds like your father is suffering from autistic burnout, which sometimes happens to adults. Basically, the tremendous effort of holding down a job and trying to be a "normal" father and husband has caught up with him. He has done as well as he could for as long as he could, and now he can do no more.

Yes, burnout. He's definitely burned out and suffering so much.

Rather than commenting on the pieces in the evolution of this discussion, I think I will comment on this.

Understanding this piece of your father, I believe, is your road to accepting the past and what you have now. That doesn't mean you have to stay in his life, especially since it sounds like it would be toxic for you to do so; this is about you reconciling your experiences and feelings.

I am not convinced he ever consciously meant to hurt you. You talk about him being in his own world, and I know from my son that there is this threshold that seems to get crossed, usually when there has been a build up of stress or sensory overload, and once crossed he is no longer in control. At all. What I've taught my son to do is recognize the signs leading up to that threshold, and pull off the road before getting there. Some people with ASD, however, never manage to learn how to do that; some just are not capable of it; and that is how I see your father. No doubt just the action itself, once started for any reason, was enough to push him across the threshold; I know that with my son those types of activities are simply off the table because they seem to jumble up his brain. However, it is also possible that he knew if he started he could cross the threshold, and that is why I agree that you can't completely discount the possibility that he had a mean streak, although I doubt you will ever know.

I will note that him saying now that he never liked you could well be defensive. I've seen that with a lot of people; they adjust their feelings and their view of history to make whatever conclusion is most convenient and least painful for them. They don't know any other way to cope, and failing to re-color the past would cause them pain beyond bearing. In your father's case, it would certainly be much more convenient to see your relationship as flawed from the start, than it would be to accept that he caused you pain.

Abuse comes from a place of deep pain, and there are many reasons to believe you father has deep, likely unacknowledged or specified, pain. Knowing that does not excuse the behavior, or mean you have to allow yourself to be subjected to it, but it does allow you to feel love for someone you know you have to keep walls up with, and to basically reconcile your experiences within your own heart and mind as you move forward. It sounds like he has always been a troubled man, faced with a world that is always confusing and often cruel to him, although I do find it sweet that your mother was willing to be a warm and kind light for him.

You can forgive him, but you don't have to see him or allow your kids to see him. You can accept that divide between knowing you care, while also knowing his outward behavior is toxic. Or maybe you make sure that you can control the limited contact you might still want to have; chose the time, place and circumstances. Not every regrettable difference and issue is solvable. That is just life.

I am sorry that a man who sounds like he had some wonderful sides to him ended up hurting you so profoundly. While no one is perfect, children need to grow up feeling at least safe around their own parents. My heart aches that you did not; I can't imagine that he ever wanted that for you, but for whatever reason that is what happened.

One of my goals with my son has been to make sure he doesn't have to grow up with a dark hole inside. For a variety of different reasons, it seems that far too many people with ASD are forced to do just that: grow up with a dark hole inside. I know my own father did, and my husband, to a smaller extent, too (although with them it was never as large your father's seems to have been). Only time will tell if I have succeeded, but that has been my goal since he was a baby. I don't want bitterness to creep in. I want the bright lights I see in him to rule his life, not the frustrations.

I might not know how to "love people right.

I might screw up, make a fool of myself, overstep my bounds, get used, and/or give people the creeps.

I stared down the CHOICE to become a bitter, mean, hateful person, more than once, and decided to take the chance of continuing to love.

I don't know how much pain a person can eat before they no longer have the will, or the ability, to make that choice.

But, while it might attract pain to you, I don't think ASD is enough of a disability in its own right to absolve one of the responsibility to "choose the light," as it were.

DW_a_Mom that is a beautiful post. Thank you for writing that. I agree with you. It is possible to love your parents and yet set needed boundaries. I now only see my parents once in a while and that seems to have helped our situation.

Thegoodlistener I totally relate to what you say about feeling that you grew up, but your father did not. I have that experience with both of my parents. I think that the teenage years were the most difficult because I needed adult guidance, but didn't have that support. I'm through that now and living in my 30s and have a different perspective on the world and my childhood seems a long way away from me now. I've got to a point where my sister and I talk about the good things we experienced growing up.

Smells and noises were my Mum's most difficult thing to deal with. She would all of a sudden completely change her temper and be angry at us and we didn't know why. We thought she was just being mean, but now I know that she had just hit a point were she was unable to cope.

As she's got older she has retreated into herself a lot and needs to spend a great deal of time cocooned away in bed in a darkened room. That makes me sad because she's not out enjoying herself, but on the other hand it is good that she has a place where she can go to unwind and block everything out.

I think that this forum has helped me a lot. I would encourage you to stick around and feel free to PM me if you want someone to talk to.

Thank you to all of you for the attention, consideration, and replies. I really do appreciate it and I'm taking it to heart.

It's OK to stay away from the toxic...

Aspergers is not enough of an issue to absolve him of the choice to love...

He may have had a legit mean streak also...

He was never taught the skills to help him avoid the breaking point...

It is scary and confusing to be a kid and experience the breaking points...

Not all of his behaviors were intentional...

~ It's all sinking in. It's a lot to digest.

In the meanwhile, I've been thinking about the lighter issues (perhaps I'm overwhelmed) around this issue. One of the lighter issues is around noise/volume. I would like some feedback on what I'm thinking, just to know if it seems to make sense to you all.

Noise:
My father was sensitive to noise and I wasn't permitted to cry as a baby. Luckily, I was a very peaceful baby and easily redirected. My mother and I had a connection that she was so attentive too, she eliminated my need to cry by almost perfectly anticipating my needs, keeping me attached her hip for a quick response, and she was just simply amazing. As an only child, there was only me for her attend to and when I asked her why I didn't have any siblings, she commented, "Do you think your father would have been able to handle that?" as if I was crazy. lol. true, he wouldn't. With one sweet, calm, easily entertained daughter, we had a very quiet, clean, controlled, household (unless he tried to rile me up which seemed to exasperate him).

When I grew up and had a daughter of my own, I was the loudest, most wild, fun, singing, dancing, pot and pan drumming mother you ever met. I allowed levels of circus type fun in my own household that drove my husband up the wall. And later on, as a childcare provider, it was as if my long lost siblings had finally come into my life. I relived my childhood vicariously .

But, it's like as if I fall off the deep end. Because I never learned and witnessed appropriate and flexible boundaries being set all along the way, I struggle. It is painful for me to curb outlandish behavior, know when to draw the line, what to say, how to say it without being angry (I under-react), and when to anticipate a safety issue (within reason, like I know letting kids run in the street is not OK during 5 oclock traffic). I don't think these are Aspie issues of my own, but I think they are a gap in my development and experience. With my dad it was all or nothing. Stating boundaries to keep play fun, yet not over the top crazy, wasn't something that I learned from the adults around me.

I am guilty of being the "yes" parent. My husband, raised with 5 other siblings, is a barking "NO" parent. He helps me keep tabs on things. I also am raising siblings and I am baffled by the bickering. At times, I can't find solutions. Just yesterday, I admitted to them that I really don't understand their convoluted arguments against one another; it makes no sense to me, so I'm just going to issue a punishment that makes no sense and doesn't really apply but it just random because nothing needs to actually make sense when people just want to argue all the time!! ! lol Urrgh! Actually, I think that was pretty smart stuff.

Anyways, my point is, have you seen this in others or experienced it your self. Due to the environment with Aspergers parent being so quiet, controlled, organized, and calm, we don't know what to do with ourselves when we grow up and have the freedom to create our own environment? and we fall off the deep end the other way trying to manage it all. This has certainly made me the "fun" parent. But, I really don't like it when it gets to far and it's a painful struggle for me to have to put my foot down (probably pretty typical). It's a confidence thing I'm sure. It's like if my "normal" compass is flawed. But, my husband has no problem saying "heck NO!, you don't have to let them act like that... my mother would never have let us do that.... you are too nice!"

Feed back please.

OK, I am an informally diagnosed aspie, my husband is aspie-ish in many ways, my son is diagnosed with autism, and my dad was pretty damn aspie (though undiagnosed) and this sounds crazy to me. My dad did not allow bickering, and by that I mean my sibling and I were told to go do it outside. I think, but have no certainty of it, given my family's apparent genetics, that this is a common NT tactic when kids get too loud. But the notion of not allowing an infant to cry boggles the mind.

I don't doubt that your dad's sensory issues were very bad, but...an infant...not allowed to cry. Just.no. Aspie's are typically reasonable people when they can be, and when not immediately under a deluge of sensory stimuli, I would have thought your mom might have interceded and came up with an alternate plan, like your dad excusing himself when the noise got too much. When sensory issues are too much, I give myself timeouts, and I would never attempt to shush normal childhood noises. It is possible he could not recognize the impending meltdown, but he is the one who ought to have been forced to adapt.

I know I am poking a bear, here, because I know you believe that your mom is a saint...but I am going to (try to) gently put this out here, so you can think about this. Don't you think this is something the other parent should have put a foot down on, and not tolerated?

It is nice that you were docile by nature, and that your mom figured out to attune herself to you, but there are things (IMO) that one should fight for ones child's sake. Tip-toeing around an abuser does not make a person a saint. Maybe it is a form of Stockholm's syndrome or something else, (not trying to victim-blame--and sometimes the more passive spouse is psychologically unable to protect the child.) but such a person is not a saint. A saint martyrs herself, not her child.

As far as you over compensating by being the "fun" parent, I can see why this would happen. People react to childhoods, typically by either creating the same conditions (sometimes even when severely dysfunctional) or by rejecting it and creating something almost the opposite. The middle ground requires more mindful thought and work than either of the two extremes.

ASD MOMMY WROTE: "Aspies are typically reasonable people when they can be, and when not immediately under a deluge of sensory stimuli, I would have thought your mom might have interceded and came up with an alternate plan, like your dad excusing himself when the noise got too much. When sensory issues are too much, I give myself timeouts, and I would never attempt to shush normal childhood noises. It is possible he could not recognize the impending meltdown, but he is the one who ought to have been forced to adapt."

~ Just about everything about my dad confuses me. On one hand, his sensory issues were very bad. He seemed to have the tolerance to work in an automotive shop with random drills and torks going off, but he expected that in the environment. Unexpected noise, such as a babies screech, a repetitive banging toy, the bump of the babies bottom falling down as they toddle, and unexpected movement around the house, totally freaked him out. That is why my mom had total control of me and kept me in close proximity. She accommodated him and she became very skilled at attending to me in such a way that there was no need to cry. I was redirected from making banging noises, kept separate from him when I needed to walk or practice physical movement, and she immediately ran to my every bump or bruise so that he wouldn't become angry about my crying. On rare occasions I was sick, needy, cranky, and I did cry. He did react with yelling at my mom. He would sleep in the living room at night and during the day when crying was happening he'd leave. He never took care of me. She did it all.

Was he a selfish ass? Was a kid inconvenient for his self-centered focus and life-style? Was it easier for him to just take off and leave any time my cry was annoying? Did he take advantage her tending to me and was he LAZY? Did she know something; did she know he was incapable of responding to me without anger and irritation so she spent every moment protecting me? I think all of it. And I usually remain as confused as ever. I think he had legit aspergers issues such as sensory overload. I also think he's lazy and selfish. Could it be both? Could he be Aspergers and also an ass?

As far as my mom goes, I think she was discovering his issues as she was learning to cope with me. It all evolved over time. The more his issues took over and grew more intense, the more she learned to cope living with them. Keeping me attended to and quiet was one of the ways she coped.

s**t hit the fan when my daughter was born though. When my daughter was born, she was not like me. My mother was beside herself and she admitted to me that my daughter was some other kind of thing to deal with. My daughter was colic, a sqwalker, and in a completely exasperated tizzy for months and months and months. And I moved back home (in my parent's home) for 2 years with her. But, now I was the mother.

I found myself also bullied by him. His issue with the crying (which no one could stop her from doing, day or night) was a problem. He was constantly angry with me for failing to keep her happy. He was also constantly giving her anything that she wanted (over the course of 2 years) and angry with me if I tried to stop him from giving her whatever she wanted. He was always stuffing binkies in her mouth when I wanted her off the binky past 18 months old. He filled bottles of milk for her in the night and stuck them to her so that she'd sleep. He let her play with anything she wanted so that he didn't have to say NO. He felt that I was a bad parent if I laid her down for a nap when she didn't want to lay down (although obviously tired), or when she was demanding her binki (when the dentist recommended we wean her off that and the bottle) or when I took a toy away from her because she was banging it on the glass table (swap out with a soft toy, but she was smart and would notice and cry like crazy over the switch).

He yelled at me a lot when ever "I" made her cry. Wanna know what spoiling her did? It developed a worst crying, temper tantrum, fit making kid than ever. The 20 hours a day of crying as a baby never subsided. Our days were still consisting of mostly chronic crying and meltdowns. At times I tried to put my foot down and explain to him that when he tries to shut her up by just giving her anything she wants, that is undermining me as a parent, who wants to help her learn some lessons, learn to self-sooth, and not have this horrible behavior of crying and tantrums reinforced by spoiling her (rewarding her). He didn't seem to understand any of that. He was simply at the mercy of her cry and would do anything to just make it stop. It took a while, but I did move out and get married. She almost drove my husband away from me also with the constant dramatic crying, Uggh!! The crying was that much of a burden and it consumed a huge part of her childhood.

But, once separated from Grandpa, I was finally able to address some of the crying and demanding problems. Sadly, to this day, she resents me for being the parent who had boundaries for her and gave consequences to her, and she adores him. He still gives her whatever she wants. He can't say No. He's at her mercy. And he hates me, and has no respect for me not being able to give her what ever she wants and not being willing to give her what ever she wants. To him, that is a good parent. My mom did a good job giving me whatever I wanted, attending to me perfectly (an easy child). He respects my mom. To him, I am a failure because my baby cried. And that irritated him.

It's all very weird isn't it? Does any of it make sense to you, that doesn't make sense to me? How can a man be so diabolically manipulative, perfectly undermining, and a bully, yet innocently have a disability that kind of absolves him?

Although my daughter was obviously suffering from him spoiling her, is that abuse? Is that an abuse I should have put my foot down (which I did, I fought with him about it all the time) and put him out of our lives over? My mom struck it lucky with me being so easy peasy in my demeanor. But, things were really different when my daughter was born. She really brought the house down. We had never seen him act like a slave to the cry before, either of us (my mom and I). We had no idea the power it had over him. I think it literally hurt him to have crying happening and he truly was at it's mercy. What grandparents don't spoil their grandkid? There's a whole world of grandparents out there who would agree with him, minimize the resulting problems, and mark it up as "Oh, just let the grandpa give her whatever she wants, that's what grandpas are for." It totally confuses me.... maybe I was in the wrong. ??? Craziness makes me feel crazy.

Still struggling with figuring out this "quote" thing in forums. I think I discovered tonight that if you take out the [parenthesis] it makes the little box disappear.

Anyways, THANK YOU for being patient with me and all of my weird questions and long (indulgent, almost journaling) posts. It's been a long time, like never before, that I have found a place that even 1/2 way seems to understand my dads totally confusing issues.

The quotes are hard to do, correctly. I screw them up all the time. No worries. Yes the stuff in the middle of the bracketed stuff goes into a box that sets off the quote from the rest, and the first quote with the name will make it say who you are quoting.

From reading a lot of post here (so anecdotal evidence, only) it is common in families with AS to have babies of both extremes. Very docile or very colicky. I also was very calm (supposedly) and my son was very colicky.

I don't get into all the Mommy War stuff. I was what you would probably think of as lenient, but it was not b/c I could not stand the crying. I am not saying that was not your dad's issues with your child's crying, I am only saying this because of my particular example.

The particular cry my son made was not the usual "I am testing you" or "I am slightly unhappy" baby cry. I mean it sounded like true distress. I do not know how to translate the difference into words, but if you ever noticed the difference in your own child, you would know what I mean. My son's neurological system was making him suffer, though I did not know it at the time, that he was autistic. But he would make that sound many hours a day, and it sounded like he was in real pain. We tried treating reflux, allergies to standard formula, etc. but the medical professionals would tell me that was the temperament of my baby. So, I was lenient because he sounded hurt, not to make the crying stop, because nothing really did. You could just tell he sounded less distressed, if you know what I mean. I am also more on the attachment parent side of things philosophically than the Ferberizing side.

Is it possible your dad could not tell the difference between a truly distressed child, and a child who needed limits? Sure it is, but the fact that that is not what you think, and you lived there, makes me think this was not the case. Grandparents, including NT ones, often run rampant over parents' wishes. My in-laws are like that---and have very different baby-raising ideas than I do. When an adult child with her own child lives with them, I would imagine this gets much worse.

Child-rearing is one of those things that people in general can get very rigid about. it brings out the bullying nature in people who are bullies because they can claim it is in the child's interest with all the sanctimony that this implies covering up the bullying maybe even in their own mind. With AS rigidity, it is even harder to persuade someone who may really be doing it out of sincere belief.

Obviously, it is next to impossible for me to parse this. Was it bullying meant to undermine your parenting? Was it sincere-belief? Was it really just to cut the noise level? Who can say from a distance of time and place, and over the Internet? I don't even think it will be easy to parse for you, having lived it. I don't know how much comfort it would give you to know and this is coming from a person who generally prefers knowing to not knowing, just by nature.

i think your peace will come when you get to a point where it doesn't matter and you can live more in the now than in the past; though I do not know how you get there from here.