How do you disipline a child who has Asperger's?

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Goren
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18 Jan 2010, 4:43 am

Spokane_Girl wrote:
Goren wrote:
Aspie children can not be disciplined. Period. If you don't believe me, ask my mother.



I was disciplined so no I don't. There's my own proof. Me.

Sorry to hear that. I just hope you did come over your childhood experience in time to prevent it affecting next generations.



Jimbeaux
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18 Jan 2010, 9:35 am

CleverKitten wrote:
Goren wrote:
Aspie children can not be disciplined the exact same way NT children can. Period. If you don't believe me, ask my mother.


fix'd.


I agree. Disciplin done right works. Disciplin done wrong or not done at all is doing a huge disservice to the child as it will not prepare them for the real world.



18 Jan 2010, 7:32 pm

Goren wrote:
Spokane_Girl wrote:
Goren wrote:
Aspie children can not be disciplined. Period. If you don't believe me, ask my mother.



I was disciplined so no I don't. There's my own proof. Me.

Sorry to hear that. I just hope you did come over your childhood experience in time to prevent it affecting next generations.



You think I am damaged from my childhood? I actually don't hold grudges and I look back and see what a good mother I had and she did me a big favor. She taught me how to follow rules, show respect, behave in public, etc. She also did lot of good things for me. In fact she could have done worse stuff like all those other parents do who abuse their kids. Look at "A Child Called It" and other books written by adult kids who survived child abuse. No way did I have that kind of life. And I thought then my mom was mean? But I got over it every time.



leschevalsroses
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18 Jan 2010, 7:54 pm

Vivienne wrote:
Alright this has become a wonderful discussion, and there's been lots of great advice from parents and non-parents alike.

I want to clear some things up, regarding my original post -

1) jumping on the bed was only an example. He does do it, and often, but it was used as an example of minor behaviours that are mostly irritating and sometimes destructive. There are about a thousand of these little behaviours, I couldn't get into them all.

2) He jumps on the bed for fun. Same reason he blows raspberries all the time. I recently had a baby, who learned to blow raspberries. Gramma and I thought it was cute, and laughed when he did it. My 7 yr old then decided that he would also be thought of as 'cute' if he did it too. So now we're faced with him going into guests faces and spitting on them. Then laughing wildly and waiting for the praise. As well as at the table in restaurants etc. Trust me, it's not that ignorable.

3) It's embarrassing but I'll be frank. I live in a 1 bedroom apt with my 2 kids. I've given Evan (7) the only bedroom. MY bed is in the livingroom. There's no door to lock (oh what I'd give for a room of my own!!). The baby and I share a bed. I've given Evan everything I have, and the only bedroom is just one of many sacrifices I've made for the child. In fact, when I moved in I couldn't afford a bed, so for the first six months of my pregnancy I slept on towels on the floor. I was finally given a bed by the St. Vincent De Paul society, after waiting for 7 months.
This is why my bed is precious to me. I really don't want to be on the floor again.

4) He doesn't jump up and down. He starts at the far end of the livingroom and takes a running dive. Often when the baby is laying on the bed. He considers this "playing". I consider it dangerous.

-Time outs have been used, unfailingly he forgets why he's on time out. Or forgets he's in time out and goes off playing.
-As I've said before, hitting isn't an option.
-I've tried using logic and explaining to him why I don't want him to do it. He professes to understand and stops for a day... Until he forgets a few hours or a day later and is back at it.

I'm not sure if he just doesn't give a damn, or if he's truly 'forgetting' and in ignorance about how I view it.

I had a child and I love my child, but I was not an extremely patient person before I became a mom. I use every ounce of strength I have some days and every 'calming' technique I've ever read to keep my cool with my son. I'm Jamaican, and trust, my Jamaican friends think I'm ridiculous for going through all this. They're of the "you're too soft, just beat him" school.

I just feel like he's being so unfair, after all I do for him, can't he TRY to co-operate?


I think that one of the most effective ways to deal with the situation is to really figure out why he's doing what he is. I think you pinpointed the cause of the raspberries. You laughed at him for doing it- he got positive reinforcement and thus decided to do it again. The solution to this would be to ignore him.

It seems to me that you're focusing on giving him negative consequences for his actions too much. Try changing his behaviors by using positive reinforcement. You could try setting up a rewards system where you have some sort of box of small toys or candies that is set aside to be used only when he does something good. If he's jumping on the bed and you ask him to stop, add in that he'll be able to pick a candy or toy out of the bag when he stops. The reward could also be something like playing a board game or going to the playground or reading a book. Use what your son likes to form the rewards.

If he doesn't stop the unwanted behaviors for that you can also try waiting until he eventually does stop the unwanted behavior (jumping on the bed) and when he does reward him with a special treat or tell him how happy you were that he stopped.

The main thing is to let him understand that when he follows your rules or does something you want him to do, good things happen.



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18 Jan 2010, 8:04 pm

Considering your situation, between the safety of the baby and your own need for sleep on the bed punititive measures may be necessary. As I don't believe in hitting children another technique which I reserve for only dire circumstances, is throwing a toy in the garbage (or recycling). Tell the child clearly which toy will be thrown in the garbage and for what reason. Child jumps on bed, toy gets chucked in trash. As soon as the inevitable tantrum is completed and the child is calm select another toy and restate the deal. Explain that you are willing to throw ALL toys into the garbage. Repeat until child realizes you are serious, child will usually give up after first or second toy.



18 Jan 2010, 11:37 pm

PenguinMom wrote:
Considering your situation, between the safety of the baby and your own need for sleep on the bed punititive measures may be necessary. As I don't believe in hitting children another technique which I reserve for only dire circumstances, is throwing a toy in the garbage (or recycling). Tell the child clearly which toy will be thrown in the garbage and for what reason. Child jumps on bed, toy gets chucked in trash. As soon as the inevitable tantrum is completed and the child is calm select another toy and restate the deal. Explain that you are willing to throw ALL toys into the garbage. Repeat until child realizes you are serious, child will usually give up after first or second toy.


I really hope you will keep those toys in the trash and not ever take them out and give them back to the child. Then they will know they will just get them back and you are just bluffing. Kids are smart.



Aylahmay
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19 Jan 2010, 8:25 am

This sounds just like my 7 ys old son! Ive tried spanking, taking things away, behavior charts,time outs, nothing worked. But I recently discovered that he hate to here me asking or telling him what to do. So I make him pecs pictures for various areas he need help with. He is verbal, maybe overly verbal but my youngest son has no speech at all so we use pecs with him.

I bought a binder and made pages of pecs:

Morning routine: getting dressed, brushing teeth, the order of things
Using the bathroom and showering
All done or finished is a great one for when he know when enough is enough!


Oh,I also bought a visual timer, they are great then I dont have to say anything, he can see and hear when time is up!

WE also do a good reward ( responsibility) chart for anything that he needs to do. I got a magnetic 1 at Target. It works great then you can have him choose a reward at the end of the week.

But its really the pecs for my son!
He needs to be reminded about a million x to do anything, which then he thinks I dont love him and Im a terrible parent. This has been working great for a couple weeks now, maybe you should give it a try.


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19 Jan 2010, 11:06 am

I think that Vivienne's situation is to difficult to try to teach him and I don't think beatings or throwing toys will help.
The boy is young obviously and self-control, remembering things maybe too much for him at this point and teaching him in situation with a small baby and no resources is too much for everyone.
My son also forgets to obey the rules and mostly it is not a problem however jumping on a baby is dangerous and there can be no mistakes there.
Is there a way to get the mattress off the bed so baby can be on one part (hopefully surrounded by some furniture) and your boy can jump on the mattress. I don't think that diving on the mattress can damage it.



Aylahmay
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19 Jan 2010, 11:16 am

I also went to the fabic store and bought foam sheets, they use to make cushions, just made a cover for them and I use them for the jumping and diving in stead of the jumping and diving on the bed thing. It much safer and wont hurt anything. Crash mats are great for getting all that out!


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leschevalsroses
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19 Jan 2010, 11:58 am

PenguinMom wrote:
Considering your situation, between the safety of the baby and your own need for sleep on the bed punititive measures may be necessary. As I don't believe in hitting children another technique which I reserve for only dire circumstances, is throwing a toy in the garbage (or recycling). Tell the child clearly which toy will be thrown in the garbage and for what reason. Child jumps on bed, toy gets chucked in trash. As soon as the inevitable tantrum is completed and the child is calm select another toy and restate the deal. Explain that you are willing to throw ALL toys into the garbage. Repeat until child realizes you are serious, child will usually give up after first or second toy.


I wouldn't do that, that sounds like cruel and unusual punishment. I think that children should be able to live in an environment where they aren't constantly worried about the state of their items. My mom used to threaten to throw out my favorite stuffed animals and send away my pets, and I would go to school and spend the entire time in a state of panic thinking about what might be missing when I come home. Yes he's a child, but I still think that he should have a right to his possessions. And anyway, I think a lot of Asperger's kids have a really hard time understanding rules and knowing what is expected of them. Punishing the child by spanking them or taking away their toys might cause unwanted anxiety from the fear of not knowing what will get them in trouble.



KEYPREAL
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19 Jan 2010, 2:20 pm

Spokane_Girl wrote:
I really hope you will keep those toys in the trash and not ever take them out and give them back to the child. Then they will know they will just get them back and you are just bluffing. Kids are smart.


This is very true and I think is very overlooked. I myself am just beginning to understand how smart they really are and I was unsuspicious of it. The whole phylosophy of treating children like little adults as turned into treating them like big children. Adults know the rules and know what to expect when they're broken. If you want to teach responsability to a child he must understand that not only his actions have consequences but also his atitude. Don't teach him that if you do something nice you'll get a reward and if you annoy me I'll annoy you. That's not how the world is and it will only teach them to do tricks or get your atention for the wrong reasons. If they learn that constant good behavior will keep everyone happy and bring positive things and lifelong rewards and bad behavior gets you in trouble and makes you miserable then they're fine.

That said, every child is different and reacts differently and parents shouldn't assume that they know their children well enough as to decide what kind of behavioral treatment to apply.


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19 Jan 2010, 2:54 pm

KEYPREAL wrote:
Spokane_Girl wrote:
I really hope you will keep those toys in the trash and not ever take them out and give them back to the child. Then they will know they will just get them back and you are just bluffing. Kids are smart.


This is very true and I think is very overlooked. I myself am just beginning to understand how smart they really are and I was unsuspicious of it. The whole phylosophy of treating children like little adults as turned into treating them like big children. Adults know the rules and know what to expect when they're broken. If you want to teach responsability to a child he must understand that not only his actions have consequences but also his atitude. Don't teach him that if you do something nice you'll get a reward and if you annoy me I'll annoy you. That's not how the world is and it will only teach them to do tricks or get your atention for the wrong reasons. If they learn that constant good behavior will keep everyone happy and bring positive things and lifelong rewards and bad behavior gets you in trouble and makes you miserable then they're fine.

That said, every child is different and reacts differently and parents shouldn't assume that they know their children well enough as to decide what kind of behavioral treatment to apply.


Yes, kids catch on, which is why "say what you mean and do what you say" is so important. But I'm not one for throwing out toys, either - I have NEVER threatened that. I HAVE put toys in "time out" for a few weeks, but I know how connected my AS son is to his possessions and I know how traumatic an actual toss would have been. And, well, its such a waste. Giving things to the needy is one thing, but tossing is another.

I've found that the consequence is far less important than the immediacy and the consistency. Both my kids consider, "I'll pick you up and take you there myself!" to be a real threat, and it often works better than even the worst "take away," because in a real definiant mood what they want to assert is independence, and show that you can't control them. But if its something you can physically force without harming the child in any way, they figure out pretty quick that oops, you CAN control them. Not that this is the issue with bed jumping ...

Honestly, so much can be avoided with a quiet and well timed friendly reminder. Catch the movement off track when it just starts to veer a tiny bit, and you can keep things really fun while also keeping the child in line. The more attuned a parent is to the kids, the easier it is.


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20 Jan 2010, 1:07 pm

Vivienne, have you been able to solve your problem?



Goren
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22 Jan 2010, 12:47 am

Spokane_Girl wrote:
You think I am damaged from my childhood? I actually don't hold grudges and I look back and see what a good mother I had and she did me a big favor. She taught me how to follow rules, show respect, behave in public, etc.

That is exactly what I would call "damaged from one's childhood". I would say nothing on NT children, but aspie children cannot be made to follow rules without being broken in much more ways they'll realize. And then, after many years, they break their own children the same way because they think it is a right thing to do. Cripples produce cripples.

Spokane_Girl wrote:
She also did lot of good things for me. In fact she could have done worse stuff like all those other parents do who abuse their kids. Look at "A Child Called It" and other books written by adult kids who survived child abuse. No way did I have that kind of life. And I thought then my mom was mean? But I got over it every time.

Yes, it's true that you can do worse things to a child. In fact, no matter how bad it was, you can always find somebody who had it worse. But what relevancy does it have to the topic? I remember every occasion when someone tried to 'discipline' me, every single one of them. They don't go away. We can, as you put it, 'get over it', but we can never forget, nor forgive. What benefits could there possibly be that would justify doing this to your child?



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22 Jan 2010, 5:29 am

I don't think there's a pat answer to this, as each child needs individual types of discipline. That should be as unique as the love you show for your child.



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24 Jan 2010, 7:29 pm

KEYPREAL wrote:
When we want him to obey we usually try to reason with him or explain our judgment. The psychiatrist said this is acceptable for most children but for him it is very wrong. Because he feels he can get he's way by reasoning or negociating back, and when not successful at least provoke quarrel. So we have to make him realize that we demand for the sole reason that there is a natural hierarchy and he is on the bottom side. The adult doesn't have to justify his decison, explain it or even be fair... Though this may seem harsh it is a way for him to get used to the idea that he's a child and we're adults, which is pretty obvious for most kids. So if I say "sit next to me" and he say's "no, I'll sit next to mom", what I'd usually think is "ok, as long as you're sitting". Very bad message! He's had he's way, even if I think I got mine. So if for anyone out of context there may be no sense in this dispute, for me and him it's a confrontation to see who rules and I have to get him to sit on my first option with no conceding or yielding. Otherwise next time he will again try to argue or defy.
When I was young my mom tried this a few times and I argued with her about how illogical her reasoning was.

If she had persisted in the way your psychologist is recommending I would have believed her general reasoning ability was poor, and would have resented her actions and would have rebelled. Because she generally explained her reasoning to me and because I understood why she wanted things, I was more likely to comply. She has told me that I was a very easy child to deal with.

When my mom explained in detail actual reasons why she wanted something, I was more likely to agree with her reasoning and give her what she wanted, but if she had given me reasons which she had thought would be convincing to a child, those reasons would have seemed ridiculous to me.

Rather than saying "the bed might break," I would explain the way beds are built, why they may break, and how the child may get hurt if it does break(not just that a child may get hurt, but how said child may get hurt). If you go to a bed store, they may even have a cross-section of beds which can help the child see the parts of a bed and understand how they may be hurt if they jump on one.

Rather than making demands without explaining your reasons(which from your child's perspective will seem baseless and unreasonable), I would also consider surreptitiously doing whatever was possible to make sure that a child couldn't do what I didn't want them to do. It may sometimes be a good idea to do this even before asking them to alter their behavior. This is especially helpful if the behavior you want them to stop might get them hurt.

In this case, if the child continues even after being shown the inside of a bed, I would research ways to get them a bed without springs, like a memory foam mattress or a futon. The fun from jumping on a bed comes from springing back up after landing; without that springing back up, there would be no point to jump on a bed. If jumping on a bed is not fun, a child will choose not to jump on it.

Rather than say "If you jump on the bed I am going to have to replace it with a bed you can't jump on," which is a threat, if you explain some kind of real problem with the old bed, like it's worn out, and then ask the child to go shopping with you to a futon store or a memory foam bed store, it may even be possible to make the child think that a new bed is a great thing(and depending on the new bed it might actually be).