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See, this seems completely reasonable to me. It also does not seem to be consistent with your earlier posts.
The same thing is true when you write about your own ASD. I understand that you are not comfortable with labeling yourself (or maybe you'll refute that now, too) but your descriptions of yourself, your behaviors, and your outlook on the world are so inconsistent that it almost seems that you are a different person from one post to the next. And that, I think, is the reason so many people here are trying to figure you out by making guesses about your personality, motivations, etc.

Tarantella, I believe you are reading cubedemon's thoughts into my post and I think you've misunderstood it. I don't see things the same way he does. This isn't one book where you can read a series of different posts from different people and assume a pattern. THAT may be your strongest weakness in these discussions: you continue to allow the thoughts and statements of different people to color those of others. I have entirely different thoughts on all this most of the members here, I am a unique being. While I do try to recognize the thoughts of others when I post, as well as their potential validity, that does NOT mean I SHARE them.

I was replying nearly directly to the most recent posts in this thread, on page 4 in particular, in the first paragraphs of my response. I am not upset at all; I simply saw a situation that I thought I could address and maybe help calm. I am all about solving. I may not have been in the best mental space when you started this thread, but I already admitted that. Yesterday was entirely different. I did not read or think about our previous conversations when I wrote that, other than remembering your most recent comments about your father.

When I say you what you need to hear needs to come from someone else, I am referring to your father. You have something you need to hear from him that you can't, and I realize that, but that unmet need may be behind your push here, to get responses from people that may not be appropriate for them to give. I could be off base on the source of the push, but there is definitely something more than what exists on the board, and I think you would help yourself quite a lot by admitting that to yourself. You have no duty to admit it to us, but there IS something more. You aren't just debating with the people here; you're bringing something else in. The disconnect between what you read and how you respond is too big for there to be any other answer.

I've always recognized your first core statement as possible, when you phrase it without absolutes as you have most recently done, and I've tried to convey that. The second is more complicated largely because I don't think I ever sweep ANYTHING under the rug, and continue to be confused as to why you don't see it. But you are pushing beyond that. I understand you are a professional writer, but trying to write for yourself and your needs and emotions is a bit like a doctor trying to diagnose himself. There is too much else involved for the process to be precise.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 23 Apr 2014, 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

You can understand your father and still have unresolved issues and feelings about it, you know. Everything about your situation with him is complicated and difficult to make real, actual peace with. That would be true for anyone, absolutely anyone; you aren't immune from human response and emotion (um, I know you have never said or implied that you are, but maybe you are trying a little too hard to convince yourself that you are OK with something you actually aren't; I don't know if that is true; just something you might want to ponder).

You may not realize this, but I do want to HELP you, if it is at all possible. That is what I "do." Perhaps you don't want it, and that is fine, but I want you to understand that that is where my posts are coming from, even on days my own issues get in the way and make a positive result impossible (as was happening when you started this thread, but I really don't think I am in that space right now).

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 23 Apr 2014, 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

I'm not associated with either group, despite your apparent efforts to put me into a box. Not everyone wants to be in a box; not everyone belongs in a box. I certainly don't think I do.

You would be hard-pressed to find anyone in this community who would disagree with this statement. And I think when you clearly state this, no one would argue.

The problem comes when views are presented as absolutes. And whether or not you intended to do so, you have somehow managed to leave many intelligent, astute people under the impression that you have. The irony of it all is that you have perceived that some of us have presented our opposing opinion as an absolute as well (that AS NEVER poses problems for the people who have relationships with them), and I have not noticed anyone say that as an absolute. Of course AS poses problems. So does being insecure, being pompous, being forgetful, being too serious, and having chronic halitosis.

But the truth is, in some relationships, based on each person's needs and coping strategies, all of those "problems" are insignificant. I do not feel that I am a worse parent because I have ADHD or am a shadow. I would say that on the balance, those things make me a better parent to my particular kids. Do I sometimes fail to follow up on their homework? Yep. Do I forget to send in signed permission slips? Yep. Do we sometimes waste large parts of our day doing non-productive things? Yep. But I would not say that any of those things are "problems" in a meaningful way, and I think the degree of "problem" caused by these things is less in magnitude than the degree of "help" that my neurology gives me in working with my kids to get them closer to the best "me" that they can be.

But, I am quick to stand up against anyone who I see as presenting a half-truth. Much to the confusion of people in my life, I tend to do this even when the half-truth being represented is consistent with my opinion. I cannot stand it. So, although you are now recanting and saying that your point has always been that AS can affect relationships negatively and not that it does affect relationships negatively, I feel compelled to point out that sometimes jerks are simply jerks. Take the AS out of the jerky Aspie, and i bet most of the time you are left with just a jerk. It is my opinion that too often things are "blamed" on AS almost like a scapegoat. Sometimes it is a temperament/personality thing and AS has nothing to do with it.

At any rate, we can all sit here and reiterate what each of us believes we have already said. For me, personally, if enough people give me consistent feedback, no matter how inconsistent it is with my personal view or my intentions, I usually give it more thought than you appear to be. But that is your choice.

Lastly: You are very confusing. Well-written? Yes. Consistent? Not at all. Due to my own experiences on the web, inconsistencies in someone's core presentation make me very leery. Because as an outsider, it is hard to determine if it is because you are falsely representing yourself, you have a hidden agenda, or because you, yourself, are conflicted. I have seen all three scenarios play out in different forums. I guess time will tell what is happening here. If it is the later, however, I think it bears mentioning that the things that you criticize other Aspies for are evident in your own behaviors. Just food for thought. But again, it is your choice whether to consider the feedback or not.

Agree with this ^

^I have suspected this myself.

The quote that you said earlier, Tartantella, the one that I said I don't think all Aspies could say...that's what I suspect you want to hear from your father. And because it has not been said, you want Aspies everywhere to recognize the damage they have caused in their relationships, but you appear to have a really hard time connecting with the idea that some of us have had relationships with Aspies in which the AS has caused no damage.

I have had relationships with Aspies where there have been problems, but the problems were not due to AS, they were due to one or both of us acting like jerks or simple incompatibility in views or personalities. I have also had relationships with people on the spectrum where there are no problems outside of the normal problems that happen in any relationship.

And, I have had "problems" with my own father, who I believe to be undiagnosed, but once I realized that the root was likely AS, it pretty much stopped being a problem because I understand where the behaviors originate from and they honestly don't bother me anymore because I no longer expect things of him that are unreasonable/unfair to expect. People get hurt when their expectations are violated. When I expect him to be single-minded, overbearing in his views, inflexible, and unable to see things from my perspective, then when these things happen it really isn't that big of a deal. It is what one can expect from him. And when I expect those things and he actually behaves in the opposite way, I get the pleasure of being pleasantly surprised. When he is being mindful, he pleasantly surprises me. But the reality is, that mindfulness always take extra effort, so unless he is exerting extra effort in order to pleasantly surprise me, he is going to meet my expectations. Imagine how absolutely draining it would be if you had to continuously live your life exerting extra effort to avoid failing to meet the expectations of others. Me? Not going to ask that of anyone, as I would resent anyone asking it of me.

BTW, he didn't need to say anything to me or offer any apology at all. Because that--in and of itself and for my father--is an example of an unreasonable/unfair expectation. Since my realization of the origins of some of his behaviors, the only "problems" we have are mostly due to the fact that he is a strongly opinionated man and his opinions do not always align with mine. Can't blame that on Aspergers. So I would have to say that the problems in my relationship with my father are not caused by Aspergers. They are caused by something else. And that appears to be something that you find intolerable to say because you believe that means I am sweeping his AS-related behaviors under the rug. I do no such thing. It is just that those behaviors are not what causes the issues and I am able to separate the two.

I will add to this excellent point. My dad was an undiagnosed aspie. He could be a piece of work sometimes, but the reasons were more complicated than him being an undiagnosed aspie. He had a really rough childhood, with a good deal of trauma. This is based on the little he would talk about and what I found out from my mom. If there were other things that were not just the product of family misfortune, and ill health; but having to do with peers and other aspie-related things, I have no way of knowing. He would never have told me. Not because he was an aspie or inherently distant. It was how men of his generation, in his culture were raised. I probably found out more than I might have, considering the circumstances.

He was a human being and fallible, as everyone is. Was some of it because of his neurology? I don't doubt it.

Honestly, even now that I have been thrust into neurological awareness due to my son's diagnosis, I don't find it fruitful to parse it. Would I have felt differently had I known or suspected about it years ago? I suspect I might have.

In the end, I am grateful that my dad helped me navigate the NT world, when neither of us even knew what that meant. I suspect he knew we were different. I suspect he thought we were "better." (He was not a humble person--and many of the negatives would have been looked at as proverbial features not bugs.) At least I had someone who understood me a little and at least his rigid plans for me were more in keeping with my nature then the ones my NT mother had dreamed up.

These types of anecdotes are not any less valid than anyone elses. I don't say my dad was perfect, but I don't dwell on it, b/c in my current life it does not matter. He did what he could do. That is all I could have asked for, anyway.

Edited to add: I find my own connection to be enlightening as a self-knowledge kind of thing. I don't typically dwell on that all the time either. It just comes up here a lot because of the nature of what is being discussed on this board. Most of my focus is on my son's diagnosis because he is more autistic than I am, and there are things I have to learn how to teach him.

Er...once again, DW, I have no idea what you're talking about. You're mentioned nowhere in the paragraph above; it was written to Adamantium, and it had nothing to do with you.

I really...you know, I've been saying the same thing for months if not years, here. Why it's acceptable today and not acceptable other days -- I'm not even going to touch it. But fine. The posts above have so many errors about what I've written that I'm not going to try to address them, because there's obviously still some investment in going black/white about what I've said. There's nothing I can do about that. We can just make a shorthand, then, for Conversation A, which goes like this:

1. New poster arrives after having recognized that AS traits in his/her parent/spouse/sibling/coworker has been deeply damaging to him or her.
2. One or more of a cast of 4-5 tries to tell the poster that AS had nothing to do with it and that this AS person was actually a jerk, mentally ill, etc.
3. I say, "Stop that, AS-activism propaganda blergh; stop disrespecting and gaslighting this new person, who knows a thing or two about his/her own life."
4. Same cast decides I must be saying that because I'm mentally ill, damaged, so AS I can't communicate, etc., am a self-hating aspergian, and also think people with AS are evil.
5. I point out that the AS propaganda machine is now at 11 and is truly nutsomatic.
6. Fin.

I don't think I'm going to add the loop where I quote this conversation and point out that the assembled cast has already agreed that AS can, in some relationships, cause real damage, because I'm not interested in the Wall of Pravda that will ensue. I think I'll just say "Conversation A," link to this thread, and let the new poster figure it out.

DW, one thing stands out, though. This helpiness of yours on my behalf...I find it kind of creepy, first because I didn't ask for any help, second because you seem intent on inventing emotional problems for me, and insist you know more about my relationships and emotional states than I do. If I really did have emotional problems to do with my dad, I'd go to one of the many good therapists we have here. But no, I'm not angry at my father, nor do I need to hear any apologies or anything else on his behalf. (I guess you're free to fantasize however you like regardless, though -- but man, again, that's weird: you think I want strangers who have children with the same condition my dad's got to apologize on his behalf? Like you're representatives of an intergalactic tribe, or something? I...don't even know what to say to that.)

If you're feeling pressure behind what I say, it's because I dislike propaganda -- on behalf of any cause -- intensely, and do not enjoy watching people dismiss or whitewash other people's stories about their own experiences just because those stories are inconvenient. Don't enjoy that a bit. If you don't see where that's coming from, and want to, I'd suggest you go back to your original responses to eve-whosis and take a close look at them, and how you try to push her away from the idea that the problem was AS, based on nothing but your own interest in AS defense and your memories of and assumptions about one person: your dad. If it were an isolated thing, by the way, I wouldn't have said anything, but it was a recurring script in the other thread about parents with AS: the problem wasn't AS, must have been something else.

I'm sorry, btw, if I've mistaken others posts for yours -- if you're referring to the 1:54 am post, though, no, that wasn't meant to be quoting you. (I don't think I said I was, either.) That was cubedemon's idea. I could've been clearer about that, though -- I thought, "maybe this is a widely-held idea" and floated it as a general thing.

All right, for real, done.

I do see why this wasn't clear. I mean that I empathize with your desire not to be labeled, in general. I don't fit any labels. I separately note that in all these discussions (that is what I meant as opposed to the quoted post) I feel that you respond to me as if I am someone I am not, because you have me firmly in a box.

You are the one with the black and white thinking putting us into boxes; we're just desperately trying to figure you out. Sorry if my theories are wrong but what else are we left with? You may think you have everything handled but your posting suggests otherwise. Don't discount the instincts of the members here: they may have trouble getting the right theory, but they see disconnect amazingly well.

Hi Tarantella--

A few things:

Sorry for the third person analysis, it appeared to me that you had left the thread permanently. Regarding anger toward your father and yourself, it appears to me that this is the case, even though it may not seem so to you. My understanding from experience of psychotherapy and rather a lot of psychological and literary theory that I read in school and later is that people have a subconscious--and inner emotional and conceptual life--that they are not usually aware of but that may be apparent to others.

I am not a joiner either--experience has taught me that I do not get along with groups, pretty much ever, though I can have perfectly good one-to-one relationships with any number of people who are in groups. The thing that happens when they get together is not something I can be part of.

No one has asked you to wave a flag or join a team, but your own language appears to be both that of someone who identifies as 100% NT, no AS traits at all, and also as someone with lots of autistic traits who identifies as probably diagnosable or BAP... This is interesting and the dichotomy visible in your own statements invites speculation. I am not particularly a fan of labels either, though I rather regret that my distaste for them blinded me to the useful knowledge that could be gained from learning about autism, both for my son and for myself.

Then there is the crap AS parents thing. You present an unassailably reasonable position here, properly loaded with qualifiers: AS may create problems in parenting. No s**t sherlock, as the saying goes. Anyone who disagree with this has not read the definitive criteria for autism. Anything that interferes with social and emotional communication can have a negative impact on parenting. But in practice, in that impact of AS parents on their children thread, you made far more categorical statements. The argument seems to go something like this:

1. In some cases, AS in parents can have a negative impact on their children
2. As we've established, AS parents are terribly impaired and have a devastating impact on their children...

And when people say point 2 does not logically follow from point 1, they are accused by you of shouting down the poor newcomer and denying reality. It's a crock. Reread that parenting thread from the beginning and you will find that the first response to those who came to express something about the pain of their relationships was compassion--the only thing people objected to was blanket, categorical vilification of parents with AS. That will always be objected to--no amount of sh***y experience related by the child of a lousy parent with AS is going to change that.

As for the AS propaganda machine, that is an offensive figment of your imagination. And your insistence that this is all about objection to the reasonable point 1 is just a sign of your need to be RIGHT. The posts are still there and it just isn't so.

Some AS parents are terrible parents, sometimes their problem behaviors are made worse by their AS symptoms
Some people who have suffered at the hands of a bad parent blame their parents behavior on AS when the described behavior is not typical of AS.

Both of these things are true. Neither negates the other. You don't need to be in a box, join a team, tow a line, or parrot propaganda to acknowledge this.

And this^^^^

Tarentella, your word choice is very precise and you refer to yourself as a writer with what appears to be a great amount of pride. As such, the supposition is that you choose words carefully, and that they are chosen correctly. So when you use words like propaganda, and refer to us as a cast of characters, and other suspect language, I assume you are using language to create a particular effect. That effect, by and large is offensive and I infer that it is intended as such due to what I assume is a mastery of the written word. (Edited to add, I know you will contradict me here, but I am posting it anyway)

You are minimizing what we say and who we are, which is exactly what you accuse us of doing to certain posters. You are not modeling the behavior you are trying to get us to follow; nor have you succeeded in being persuasive. You know that based on the lack of any change in our posting behavior, right? So the fact that you continue to soldier onward seems to indicate that persuasion is not your goal.

You say you will stop posting, but something keeps pulling you back. That leaves us with thinking you are an extremely committed troll, or that you have something emotionally invested in continuing. Countering the "propaganda machine" by itself, with nothing emotion-based behind it does not seem logical as a sufficient motive for banging ones head against a proverbial wall. That is why people suspect there is something else there.

Sometimes you want to be done with something but then someone else makes a post to you and it's so tempting to reply needing to defend yourself further. That is why my advice is when you say you are done, don't go back to the thread again. That way you won't see what is written and there won't be any tension.

I realize you probably will stick to your word and not come back in, but I actually want to apologize for something. Looking at the thread as a whole, instead of just my posts, it feels like a piling on. I don't want to do that.

I feel the same way. I am still puzzled that even after being given repeated, consistent feedback, there is no...scratch that, I am not puzzled at all.

DW, I understand why you see a potential "piling upon." I don't think that is anyone's intent. What I do think is that there are numerous people who share the same perception. The fact that someone else already shared their perception does not mean that I should not be able to share mine, even though it is similar.

To be truthful, I often try to avoid responding to two kinds of posts: 1) posts where NTs are being vilified, period, whether or not anyone else is challenging it and 2) posts where people on the spectrum are being vilified and it is has already been challenged.

I try to avoid posts where NTs are being vilified because this is primarily a site in support of ASD and for as much as I am opposed to vilifying NTs (partly because they don't deserve it and partly because it only makes the "split" worse), I almost find it....rude...to come into "their house" and tell them how/what they should post. If, as an NT-ish kind of person I find it offensive, I can leave. No one is making me stay here.

I try to avoid posts where people with ASDs are being vilified but someone has already responded because, not being fully on the spectrum myself and being surrounded by plenty of people on the spectrum who do not need me to "speak" on their behalf, I am more than happy to keep my mouth shut and let people speak for themselves. I think if I were fully on the spectrum and an NT "stood up for me" after I already stood up for myself, I'd probably be angry and feel a little patronized. So, in respect, if someone has already spoke up, I try to leave it alone.

This, however, feels different to me. This is a sub-board for Parents. Not Adult Children of People on the Spectrum. Many of us are either on the spectrum or share traits. We should be able to reside in this little community without being attacked, put down, or having characteristics ascribed to us that do not apply. And when that happens, as this is our community, I feel we should have the right to defend ourselves. People posting here should be free to express any view they wish to express, as this is a public board and that is their right. However, they should not be surprised if they make inaccurate statements about us, that we stand up and defend ourselves and those like us. And if they persist in the argument, I don't think anyone needs to stand up for them. No one is making them continue to post.

Do I think that Adult Children of People on the Spectrum may have a valid need to vent and share their experience? Absolutely. Do I think it is necessarily appropriate for them to do so in a space that is shared by parents who are on the spectrum? No. I don't. This should be our safe place. Do I think they can meaningfully participate here? Absolutely! I am more than happy to hear their perspective if they are sharing it so that I can broaden my awareness and perhaps not make some mistakes that their parent made.

But Tarentella is not trying to broaden our perspective. She is simply venting as a result of her hurt. I respect that. But I feel she has crossed the line in terms of respecting that this is a place for parents to post, not a place for Adult Children of People on the Spectrum. She is persisting in sharing a perception that she is absolutely entitled to have, but should not be surprised when the targets of her negative perceptions do not agree. And are vocal about it.

The only piece of me that feels maybe a little sympathetic is the part that recognizes that she may be having some very deep internal struggles if she is on the spectrum or BAP herself. But I remain unconvinced of this due to her jekyl and hyde posting style. What pegged me as an Aspie to other Aspies was that I consistently write like one. They saw it even when I was in denial. I do not think that Tartantella consistently writes like one. Actually, it was not until this thread that I ever suspected. That could either be because she is more skilled than I am at cloaking it, which is very possible, or it could be because this presentation is a facade. I don't know.

What I do know is that I will not stop defending parents like me. I am fully aware that AS can have an impact on parenting. I have not seen or heard anyone here deny that. But I won't stand by and idly watch as someone openly states or even implies that AS does have a negative impact on parenting, because that is a stereotypical lie, much like the stereotypical propaganda that is out there about autism in general.

Yes. I picked the word on purpose, just as I am sure Tarantella did.