punishment techniques for a toddler with AS

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My daughter has had what I thought were behavioral issues since day one. We knew something was wrong when she was born when she cried all day and night without ever finding a way to sooth herself. She never slept through the night (and still doesn't) the first 6 months she had a sleeping pattern of 2 hours awake and 2 hours of sleep all night. I thought this sleeplessness may have been part of her outburts.
We started calling them her "episodes" where she would slip so far into her own anger that we couldn't get her back until she would pass out from exhaustion. Around the age of 1 she started hurting herself during these episodes, which never seemed to be set off by anything or were for any particular reason. The doctors tested her for autism, but she seemed to be reaching all her milestones and it was dismissed as a bad temperment. She would bang herself up so badly that she had purple bruises all over her body, blood would sometimes be everywhere, and this was from a 1 year old!
We had someone come into our home for 6 months to help me with her behavior, give me tools to keep her from her anger. I honestly felt like such a failure, as nothing seemed to work. She would be a normal happy kid, and suddenly it seemed like this anger would come over her and she would snap, hurting other kids in her way. We tried time outs, we tried spanking. I only felt worse.
Last week we took her to a behavioral doctor and our 30 min apt turned into 1 hour and 30 min as she asked me questions I thought weren't relevant to her temper. At the end of our appointment she pointed out the lack of connectedness and suggested that my daughter (now 21/2) may have AS.

After reviewing all the information online, everything seems to match up. I don't feel like such a faliure as a parent anymore knowing that the many things I've struggled with teaching her never seem to stick. At the same time I still am unsure how to deal with her anger. There isn't much I've found on the differences in dicipline for a child with AS. After over a year of trying time out, my daughter still doens't understand the concept, I have to pin her legs down. She doesn't connect any of her punishment with the action and never has. She also has these outbursts that I have been punishing her for until recently, now I wait them out.

I don't know what to do? Do I continue to punish her like every other child? I feel like once she's angry she has lost connection with the world entirely, so punishing her only pushes her further away. I don't want to let her get away with things, but at the same time if I upset her she is more likely to dissconnect. Parents are always giving me advice, but they don't know what we go through. I hope here I find that someone understands my frustration. I don't want to hurt my child, I want to help her.
Thank you for any advice.

I have AS but I seem to be different than your daughter because my mom spanked me and slapped my hands and they worked because it taught me to not do X that would cause me to get hit.

We even would leave places if I hurt other kids like pushing them. She tell me "You don't push" and we leave if I kept doing it. Then I learned pushing kids causes my mom to make us leave sooner.

Spanking never worked with my son because to him we were just hittting him so he wouls hit us back not a big deal with a two year old but with a 150lb 9 yr old built like a ox it would be so I wouldn't sart back down that road. When you talk to her be very, very clear don't say think like keep your hands to your self because then she won't hit she'll kick feet and hands are not the same thing so to her mind it's ok. When she's flopping around on the ground hurtting herself and compelt out of control she's just that no longer in control of her actions the trick is finding what causes this with her.
Always let her know what your going to do in very clear ways i.e we are going to the store when we are there we will buy bread and milk if you are a good girl you can have some cookies when we are done, or a balllon or what ever she enjoys. Remind her on the way to the store were you are going and why and whats in it for her. Remind her while your walking in the door ect. Never try and take her anywere if she needs to eat, nap or hasn't gotting her play time that day that she needs it won't work out well. She sounds like she's got a lot f pent-up feelings that even a normal two year old can't deal with. My son Jake is very much the same way he needs to go to the park daily rain or shine to swing and to run. You need to sit down and think about what has been done on her good days or if you haven't gotten to good days yet on her good moments. Does she do better on days she went swimming, then lots of play time in the tub might be the thing she needs, lots of the kids really really need to swing it fills the senory needs. Other then removing her from the situation at this point you need to just work on the whys for now to deal with her behavoirs. For exsample the smell of horses just sets my son off in a big way add in a hot bus, traffic and a couple of yabows that have no clue what they are doing and he came home an hour late and a bloody mess, not his blood the yabows blood. Trying to find those trigers is key it could be as easy as a pair of sun glasses. She's not bad she just isn't in control.
As for the bed time thing I think she need more hard running high swing play time. It might sound silly if you don't do this please don't take offence because some parents I know do cut back on the sugar and caffine or more to the point cut out the caffine I have a friend who's 3 yr old will not sleep and as she's complainign to me about him the kids sluging back a starbucks extra tall frozzen coffee drink.
Something else that is a big help to alot of our kids is a visual schedules then she can see whats coming next in her day. Jake uses one with velcro were he removes what hes done with and then put up whats next. It works like now is play time , next is bathtime , then is movie time , then is bedtime. he moves what he is done with to a the done spot and moves up whats next, she'll need you to do it with her at first but they will be doing this with her at school when she starts and that can be as early as next year if you get the paper work in place in some places they would want her in school sooner or the school will send people to your home to help her with speach ect waht ever she's in need of.
Oh and this is a big thing do not ever what ever someone tells you toss water in her face to try and shock her out of a fit it dosen't work on kids with as it will only make her ten times madder don't try it you'll just have a out of control kid and a wet floor.
Ok thats all I can think of at the moment but hang in there you are not alone. Much love and best of luck to you and your little girl.

Thank you so much for that advice, many of those things I have tried and slowly stopped. I feel like I put so much more effort into keeping my daughter happy than any other parent I know with their child. I kept thinking she had something similar to bipolar dissorder because her moods are so unpredictable. I will try doing that velcro with pictures trick. I have a hard time because I am a very unorganized and spontanious person through out my day, I have a hard time keeping things structured to keep my girl happy. It's comforting to know that there are others who have children like mine, it is a balancing act that continues all day everyday. My husband is in the military so we're alone most of the time, it's hard to be patient all of the time, but I can get better now that I know it is crucial to her development and improving her condition.

What about positive reinforcement? From an operant conditioning standpoint, punishment is not as effective as positive reinforcement for changing an organism's behavior.

First off, hello and welcome to the wrong planet forums.

I hope you enjoy your stay here, we have lots of useful information on this website, and you may want to take some time and read through some of the various articles on this website.

You probably have quite a few questions, but I believe the first thing that you need information on is her 'episodes'. These are commonly referred to as meltdowns, and are the result of the brain becoming overloaded, and basically short circuiting. Once your daughter starts her meltdown her higher brain functions stop working properly. In order to explain this, you have to understand what a meltdown is. Allow me to explain it as simply as possible. In a brain the nerve cells send signals to other nerve cells. The nerve cells then process this information, and then send it along to other neurons. That is the human thought process. For example, when something bothersome happens, the brain sends out frustration signals. This is a couple hundred nerve cells firing. Now the trigger for this could be anything at all. Think about how many problems you face during the day. She could be frustrated because she is hungry and hasn't been fed yet, or because something didnt happen the way she thought it should. Often times the trigger is a relatively small and unimportant thing which you would not even think about.

In a normal person, this signal is processed, and quickly dies out. Simply put, the frustration signal may be 300 (making this number up) electrical impulses. The first set of nerve cells receive this, and send out 200 signals. The next set of cells receive this and send out 120 signals, then the next set of nerve cells gives out 80 signals, then 50 signals, etc. etc. As you can see, for normal people, this signal dies out quickly. Thus the total extent of the frustration is limited. Only a small portion of the brain is affected by this signal because it dies out before it can spread very far. This allows the child to still maintain control of their cognitive functions, and devise a solution (remaining calm, fixing the problem, asking for help, etc).

In an autistic person, the brain cells are much more closely connected. Autistic people have larger brains, with more connections between the cells, and also higher neurotransmitter levels. All that adds up to say that signals dont get lost easily. So in the same scenario, the frustration signal may be 300 electrical impulses. The cells receive this, and send out 290 signals. The next set of cells receive this and send out 280 signals, then the next set of nerve cells gives out 290 signals, then 275 signals, etc. etc. As you can see, the frustration signal does not die out quickly. It spreads throughout the entire brain, and quickly overwhelms the person's cognitive functions. When an autistic person has a severe meltdown, their brain is being overwhelmed by a very strong signal, and because the autistic brain is so overdeveloped and well connected, this signal takes a very long time to die down. This is why something as simple and relatively unimportant will cause major meltdowns. Obviously, the brain is much more complicated then I am explaining here, but I think you get the basic idea.

During this time, the person cannot think rationally because there is too much electrical signals being processed. Trying to think rationally would be like trying to make a cell phone call in the middle of a rock concert, there is simply too much clutter to hear your cell phone clearly. So when your child is in the middle of a melt down, she is effectively unconscious. Best to treat her like she is sleep walking, her eyes may be open, and she may be responsive, but nobody is home. The only solution once the meltdown has started is to reduce the amount of incoming signals, and wait it out. Take your child to a dark, quiet room, and then wait for her to work it out of her system. The signal will die out eventually.

Keep in mind that this seclusion IS NOT and never should be punishment. Tell your daughter ahead of time that you are setting up a special calming place for her were he can go if he is feeling frustrated and overwhelmed. This place is her own private area where she can relax and calm down, and you will not bother her. If you do go with time outs (not my preferred method for a number of reasons) then this place where your daughter goes to calm down should not be her time out area. She should have her own little sanctuary to relax. This should be someplace she wants to go when she is overwhelmed, not something you drag her to by force. It is probably a good idea to stock this area with things that your child finds enjoyable and calming. Perhaps a favorite book, or stuffed animal. It might also be a good idea to give her something to take her anger out on, like a stuffed pillow or bean bad that she can punch.

I can assure you that these meltdowns are harder on her then they are on you. It isnt very fun watching your body collapse in tears crying while you try desperately to hold it together. A meltdown is pretty much the cognitive portions of your brain having a seizure. And I can assure you that it is definitely NOT a pleasant experience for the person having the meltdown. So she has plenty of motivation to reduce the meltdowns as much as possible without you punishing her. I know that practical parental advice is to punish your children for acting up like that, but in reality she isnt in control once the meltdown starts. Punishing her would be like giving a ticket to a guy buried by an avalanche for 'disturbing the peace'.

If you are looking for more practical advice about HOW to prevent the meltdowns, then I suggest you have a talk with your daughter. Explain why her actions arent good, and that you want to help her find ways to avoid this problem. Try making a list of things with her that bother her. If you haven't done so yet, you may want to read about the collaborative problem solving method. It wont help mid meltdown, but it will help her to avoid them more in the future. I wish I could tell you that there was some easy way to gain control of her emotions, but unfortunately there isnt. It is just something she will have to work on day after day after day for the rest of her life.

There is a saying that I have heard, "You must control your emotions, or else they will control you." For a normal person this just means that they have to control their impulses or else they will run up a credit card bill. For an autistic person, the stakes are a bit higher. You either learn to control your emotions, or you wont be able to function in life. It isnt an easy task when your emotions are much stronger and more sudden then normal.

Your best bet is to try and reduce the amount of anxiety and stress she is under because these are what cause the meltdown in the first place. Be aware that the more stressed out a person gets, the harder it is to remain calm and prevent the meltdown. Not getting her way might be the trigger for the meltdown, but it is often times just the straw that broke the camel's back. Odds are she is already partially overloaded and anxious, and that it just what sent her over the edge. Keep in mind, that at such a young age, meltdowns like these over simple things are to be expected. As she ages, with more support and help, she will be able to control herself better and prevent the meltdowns by herself before they occur. But until then, I am afraid that just ushering her off to her quiet spot is the best you can do when the meltdown is underway.

If you wish to better understand the underlying neurology of the condition which is leading to these problems, you may wish to view this article:

http://frontiersin.org/neuroscience/pap ... 2007/html/

It is fairly technical in nature, and may not be easily understood if you dont have a good understanding of neurochemistry, neurology, and scientific procedure. If you want to, you can just skip past all the science, and get to the useful information here:

http://frontiersin.org/neuroscience/pap ... 7/html/#h9

If your husband is in the US milltary there alot of things open to you that you and more then likely your doctor is unaware of. First you need to go take a look at the STOMP website they can tell about your rights under the law. They can also tell you about the echo program it's an extra insurance that pays for your daughters needs like if she's a runner it will pay for a fence and extra locks it also will pay for things like a specail swing. It also pays for whats called respet care so you can get someone with a clue in your home to watch your daughter to give you a break. It's a pain in the ass to get and you'll be swimming in red tape and paperwork trying to get it done but if your husband is gone alot just the respite makes it more then worth your time. I've had to tell my doctor about it at every base and have some how becme the point of contact for parents of kids with autism on the last two bases I've been on I guesse because if I don't know something I find out. We at on Kirtland AFB for the next 8 or so years because of the exceptional family member program. Once you have the paper in your hand saying she has AS go and get on that program it will help keep you from getting funky orders to places that can not deal with her needs and belive someone who's dealt with the DOD schools and an nonverbal auntie kid you donot want to put your family in to that cluster F****. Sorry couldn't think of a better way to explain those 2 1/2 painful years were at one point because jake was a runner and they the fire cheif wouldn't let me put extra locks on the door and he got away from me one to and went to the park at 5 yrs old running past I'm sure kids both younger and older then him on the way there they wanted to put him in greman foster care . That was just one of the many "fun" things we lived threw in those years. Ok I'm off topic and rambling but if you have any questions please feel more the welcome to contact me.

"We knew something was wrong when she was born when she cried all day and night without ever finding a way to sooth herself. She never slept through the night (and still doesn't) the first 6 months she had a sleeping pattern of 2 hours awake and 2 hours of sleep all night."

My son had sleeping issues from day one too. The only thing that worked was me simply being there for him as much as humanly possible. Co-sleeping, etc. Self soothing = me. We are still working with this, but it is getting better at 3.

The outbursts thing worries me. If she has no other spectrum characteristics - you might be dealing with something else -- or a combination of two things. I don't think just a lack of connectedness would = autism/aspergers.

Is she talking yet? Could her frustration be not getting her needs met and/or not being able to express herself?

"I feel like once she's angry she has lost connection with the world entirely, so punishing her only pushes her further away."

You are her momma and I think you are 100% on target with this statement. I would not resort to physical or verbal (abusive) punishment. I won't help and it might re-enforce some of her negative frustrations ... meeting anger with anger ... I'd just try to soothe her and get he to come out of the cloud of frustration.

what?

My 9 yr old is 150lbs and built like an ox and has classic autism, he never got that spanking and hitting aren't the samething and when you think about it they sort of are. So if I had spanked him when he was little he would have hit me back not that we spanked him because it was pointless. so no hitting form ethier side has worked out well because now he could flaten me if he wanted to.

I'm curious, why the fixation with punishment? I can think of little that a child at that age would need to be punished for - guided, taught, shown, scolded, perhaps disciplined even... but punished? Perhaps it is my own semantic issue, but the idea of punishing one so young seems cruel and inappropriate for the situation.


M.

Discipline is synonymous to punishment.

Just think - if they don't learn now, then they grow up to be brats.

Not to be picky, but the words often times are poorly defined and their meaning can be misunderstood based on how you define them.

Discipline comes from the root word of disciple, which means to learn. The point of discipline is to teach something. That's why you might ask somebody going for a medical degree, "What is your discipline". Meaning what area are you learning specifically.

Punishment usually confers a vengeful, or retaliatory connotation. Punishment is not used to help the offender learn from their mistake as it is more often used to get 'an eye for an eye', or to set an example for others.

Of course these definitions are not clearly used in everyday speech and are often used interchangeably. Similar to empathy vs sympathy which are often used interchangeably despite very different meanings.

Analogous, yes - not synonymous. I'd tend to agree with Tracker here, though I did acknowledge the innate semantic differences at the start. But one does not need to punish in order to discipline, and in fact have found through teaching that consequences work much better than rewards or punishments.


M.

She isn't every other child. It sounds to me like she is easily overwhelmed and first and foremost you need to find those triggers and mitigate them. Her angry outbursts may be sensory meltdowns, which come from a different place and require different handling than a temper tantrum. Do not punishe the outbursts; she may well be as frightened by them as you are. On other behavioral issues, pick your battles carefully. Most AS kids will behave really well if they understand the reason you are asking it, so the more you can get her to buy into the rules, the better. Appeal to her logic.

It is possible that she is bi-polar in addition to AS, but I'm not aware they can accurately diagnose that in kids. Work on finding and mitigating sensory issues first, then consider if there is another layer.

My little boy is five. He has terrible tantrums at night. He hits and screams. He hurts himself sometimes. My first instinct has always been to try to comfort him and find out what is the matter, but that made things worse. I've learned that I have to let him wind down and calm down. I wondered if they were night terrors. Everything that Tracker posted made so much sense. I know that he relives his day in his dreams. He talks in his sleep about things, usually negative things, that have happened over the course of the day.

I'm trying to figure out how to help my son in kindergarten. He's having a difficult time with the rules. The teacher is having difficulty getting him to change from one activity to the next, especially when he is not finished with what he is working on. She has trouble getting him to stay in line in the hallways because he needs to touch things in the hallways. He often jumps out of his seat and runs up to the teacher during group when he has something he wants to say. He has hit another child on two occasions. He gets frustrated easily and cries and yells. He's very upset that he's been "bad". He wants to please.

Last edited by LaurAnnHere on 29 Sep 2009, 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.